d&r dayner hookup problems

d&r dayner hookup problems

Hi all,

I have a D&R Dayner Mixing-Console with 36 Channel In-Line, 1 Effect
return and 2 Patchbay-Modules (the console does have three additional
Patchbay-Modules, but i don't use them at the moment).

The console is configured as followed:

32 x Tape send to Motu 1224 (4 pieces)
32 x Tape return from Motu 1224 (4 pieces)
24 x Line-in for syntesizers, samplers, etc
16 x Mic in

But with this configuration I experience some hookup problems:

#1: Level differences (in German: pegelunterschiede) between Dayner
and Motu
1224:
Everything is linked symmectrical. But I do have huge differences in
the
different levels. The "Tape out" is the ouput too low (ca. -4 db).
The
hot is linked to the hot, with the Dyner it is linked to the "Ring".

On the "Tape return", the levels are way too high. Here the "Hot" is
linked to the "Tip" from the Dayner and the "Cold" is linked to the
"Ground".

As a result there is "only" a difference of +4db, but it is still too
much. But does anybody know if the connection and configuration of
the
system is correct?

#2: Set "Line-in" symmectric
I've read in the manual of the Dayner, that it is possible somehow to
make the "Line-in" work symmetric.
I've already asked D&R for help, but unfortuantely, nobody knows how
to

do it.
Does anyone of you have experience with this configuration?

Reason: I do have some "Soundmachines" that are too quiet at the
moment,
which means I need to turn the gain-pot to high. And I guess
that
if I could make the "Line-in" work symmectrial, I would not need to
push the gain at the 3 o"clock position.

Or does anybody see another possbility?

#3: Is it possible to connect symmetrical sources to the patchbay?

Greetings Sascha

P.S. Please excuse the very basic questions, but I do not have a lot
of

experience with pro analog consoles! (shame on me)

Re: d&r dayner hookup problems

<gickosa@yahoo.de> wrote:
>
>But with this configuration I experience some hookup problems:
>
>#1: Level differences (in German: pegelunterschiede) between Dayner
>and Motu
> 1224:
>Everything is linked symmectrical. But I do have huge differences in
> the
>different levels. The "Tape out" is the ouput too low (ca. -4 db).
>The
>hot is linked to the hot, with the Dyner it is linked to the "Ring".
>
>On the "Tape return", the levels are way too high. Here the "Hot" is
>linked to the "Tip" from the Dayner and the "Cold" is linked to the
>"Ground".
>
>As a result there is "only" a difference of +4db, but it is still too
>much. But does anybody know if the connection and configuration of
>the
>system is correct?

If you record something from the Dayner, play it back, are the levels
on the Dayner the same? If so, everything is fine.

The software meters are not measuring the same thing the console meters
are, so you cannot compare them.

>#2: Set "Line-in" symmectric
>I've read in the manual of the Dayner, that it is possible somehow to
>make the "Line-in" work symmetric.
>I've already asked D&R for help, but unfortuantely, nobody knows how
>to
>do it.
>Does anyone of you have experience with this configuration?

Why does it matter?

>Reason: I do have some "Soundmachines" that are too quiet at the
> moment,
>which means I need to turn the gain-pot to high. And I guess
> that
>if I could make the "Line-in" work symmectrial, I would not need to
>push the gain at the 3 o"clock position.

No, whether the input is balanced or not has nothing to do with the level.
If you have devices that produce a -10 level, you cannot plug them into
a +4 input without a "bump box" or step-up transformer and get maximum
levels. The Dayner has plenty of gain, though, so just turn the gain up.
That's what it's for.

>Or does anybody see another possbility?
>
>#3: Is it possible to connect symmetrical sources to the patchbay?

Sure. They will become unbalanced when attached to an unbalanced line,
but that is often fine.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Re: d&r dayner hookup problems

Hi,

I have a very similiar configuration (Dayner with 24 inline channels
and a MOTU HD 192).
I bought the console last month, and started now doing the connections
to the MOTU.

here are some of my experiences regarding question #1:

IMHO you can't do "symmetrical" connections between the MOTU and the
Dayner without encounting some strange behaviours.

My first connection "trial" for the outputs on the MOTU was the
following:
MOTU XLR pin 1 (ground) -> cable shield, not connected to the stereo
jack on Dayner (to avoid ground loops)
MOTU XLR pin 2 (hot) -> ring stereo jack on Dayner (+4 dBu)
MOTU XLR pin 3 (cold) -> sleeve stereo jack on Dayner (audio ground on
Dayner)
What happened was that I had a low level signal from the MOTU on the
monitors with even all mute switches activated!
I can only explain this that the signal from pin 3 on the MOTU was in
some kind modulating the audio ground of the console.

So I did the following:
MOTU XLR pin 1 (ground) -> cable shield, again not connected to the
stereo jack on Dayner + sleeve stereo jack on Dayner (audio ground on
Dayner)
MOTU XLR pin 2 (hot) -> ring stereo jack on Dayner
MOTU XLR pin 3 (cold) -> not connected
and everything worked as expected.

You have of course to do an identical connection scheme for the inputs
on the MOTU to have the in- and outcoming levels the same.

Hope this helps,

kind regards,

Pierre

Re: d&r dayner hookup problems

On 29 Apr., 22:29, aquar...@pt.lu wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have a very similiar configuration (Dayner with 24 inline channels
> and a MOTU HD 192).
> I bought the console last month, and started now doing the connections
> to the MOTU.
>
> here are some of my experiences regarding question #1:
>
> IMHO you can't do "symmetrical" connections between the MOTU and the
> Dayner without encounting some strange behaviours.
>
> My first connection "trial" for the outputs on the MOTU was the
> following:
> MOTU XLR pin 1 (ground) -> cable shield, not connected to the stereo
> jack on Dayner (to avoid ground loops)
> MOTU XLR pin 2 (hot) -> ring stereo jack on Dayner (+4 dBu)
> MOTU XLR pin 3 (cold) -> sleeve stereo jack on Dayner (audio ground on
> Dayner)
> What happened was that I had a low level signal from the MOTU on the
> monitors with even all mute switches activated!
> I can only explain this that the signal from pin 3 on the MOTU was in
> some kind modulating the audio ground of the console.
>
> So I did the following:
> MOTU XLR pin 1 (ground) -> cable shield, again not connected to the
> stereo jack on Dayner + sleeve stereo jack on Dayner (audio ground on
> Dayner)
> MOTU XLR pin 2 (hot) -> ring stereo jack on Dayner
> MOTU XLR pin 3 (cold) -> not connected
> and everything worked as expected.
>
> You have of course to do an identical connection scheme for the inputs
> on the MOTU to have the in- and outcoming levels the same.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> kind regards,
>
> Pierre

hi,

very much thanks about the fast answers. to you pierre; in my system,
the motu out connection is as follows: hot on the ring on Dayner, cold
and ground on the stereo jack ground at Dayner. This works fine. I
have a master ground source with hf filters and different power
circles for the audio and digital components. I spent a lot of time to
eliminate ground loops and other problems like this. And now, it works
perfect.

i have do the following: i record something from the dayner into
cubase. The signallevel, that returns on the dayner (tape return) was
-1db. When i turn the trim pot (on the inline module; trim the tape
send) on the 1 o"clock position, the levels are now the same.

#2 symmetrical line in:
i have a asymmetric signal from a submixer that i want a higher level.
I want take a di-box to make it symmetrical. also the crm level output
(control room out) is asymmetric. i want also make it symmetrical to
connect my KRK V88 monitors. does anyone have a tip about a good di-
box?

greets sascha

Re: d&r dayner hookup problems

hi Sascha,

Very interesting your grounding system!
How did you build the hf filters?

Why do you want to use a DI for connecting your monitors to the
console?
Are you encountering problems doing it without?

I don't use any DI and it works fine.
I have some hum/buzz starting at the 3 o'clock position of my CRM pot,
but that's already very loud and I don't monitor at such a level.

Some words for the symmetrical mod of the line in's.
I do own some Dayner split modules which have been modified in that
way by using a transformer.
As I bought them used, I don't know if the mod has been done by Dayner
or by someone else.
If you're interested in details, please let me know.

greetings,

Pierre

Re: d&r dayner hookup problems

On 30 Apr., 10:26, aquar...@pt.lu wrote:
> hi Sascha,
>
> Very interesting your grounding system!
> How did you build the hf filters?
>
> Why do you want to use a DI for connecting your monitors to the
> console?
> Are you encountering problems doing it without?
>
> I don't use any DI and it works fine.
> I have some hum/buzz starting at the 3 o'clock position of my CRM pot,
> but that's already very loud and I don't monitor at such a level.
>
> Some words for the symmetrical mod of the line in's.
> I do own some Dayner split modules which have been modified in that
> way by using a transformer.
> As I bought them used, I don't know if the mod has been done by Dayner
> or by someone else.
> If you're interested in details, please let me know.
>
> greetings,
>
> Pierre

Hello Pierre

Thank you for your help. I have big trouble! In the past, my monitors
are connected to the master outputs. in this way, everything works
fine (zero hum or ground loops!). but now, when i plug it into the crm
out, groundloops whithout a end!! and when i plug in the headphone amp
in the aux 1+2 the desaster is perfect. it seems i have to redone the
complete wiring. can you explain me exactly, how i connect the in and
out to and from the motu (tape send to the motu in, tape return to the
motu out)? I don"t understand completely your wiring example in the
previous post:

My first connection "trial" for the outputs on the MOTU was the
following:
MOTU XLR pin 1 (ground) -> cable shield, not connected to the stereo
jack on Dayner (to avoid ground loops)
MOTU XLR pin 2 (hot) -> ring stereo jack on Dayner (+4 dBu)
MOTU XLR pin 3 (cold) -> sleeve stereo jack on Dayner (audio ground
on
Dayner)
What happened was that I had a low level signal from the MOTU on the
monitors with even all mute switches activated!
I can only explain this that the signal from pin 3 on the MOTU was in
some kind modulating the audio ground of the console.


So I did the following:
MOTU XLR pin 1 (ground) -> cable shield, again not connected to the
stereo jack on Dayner + sleeve stereo jack on Dayner (audio ground on
Dayner)
MOTU XLR pin 2 (hot) -> ring stereo jack on Dayner
MOTU XLR pin 3 (cold) -> not connected
and everything worked as expected.
What do you mean with: MOTU XLR pin 1 (ground) -> cable shield, again
not connected to the
stereo jack on Dayner + sleeve stereo jack on Dayner (audio ground on
Dayner)


Is this solution the same for the tape send and tape return?
please help!

much greetings
sascha

Re: d&r dayner hookup problems

hi Sascha,

I think the easiest way is doing some drawings, so that's what I
did :-)
I don't know if I can embed images here, so here's the link:
* w w w .mellowmatic . net /dayner/images/connections.gif
<img src=" * w w w .mellowmatic . net /dayner/images/connections.gif"
width="600" height="1000">

On fig. 1 is shown my first try with the issues mentioned in my
earlier post.

On fig. 2 is shown the version which works.
I have to say that I tried this only on the tape returns so far.
For the tape sends it should work in the same way.
Please notice that on the Dayner side the cable shield is not
connected.

Fig. 3 and 4 show the connection from the CRM out to the monitor amp /
active speakers.

Fig. 3 is for balanced inputs.
I highly recommend this version if balanced inputs are available.
Of course there are other options connecting an unbalanced output to a
balanced input.
But I often had good experiences with this one.

Fig 4. shows the (only possible?) connection scheme for unbalanced
inputs.
I encountered hum with this one. But lifting the ground by the ground
lift switch on the power amp made it work.
(If your power amp / active speaker has only unbalanced inputs and no
ground lift switch, there may be a problem.)

again, I hope this helps...

best wishes,

Pierre

Re: d&r dayner hookup problems

On 6 Mai, 21:52, aquar...@pt.lu wrote:
> hi Sascha,
>
> I think the easiest way is doing some drawings, so that's what I
> did :-)
> I don't know if I can embed images here, so here's the link: * w w w .mellowmatic . net /dayner/images/connections.gif
> <img src=" * w w w .mellowmatic . net /dayner/images/connections.gif"
> width="600" height="1000">
>
> On fig. 1 is shown my first try with the issues mentioned in my
> earlier post.
>
> On fig. 2 is shown the version which works.
> I have to say that I tried this only on the tape returns so far.
> For the tape sends it should work in the same way.
> Please notice that on the Dayner side the cable shield is not
> connected.
>
> Fig. 3 and 4 show the connection from the CRM out to the monitor amp /
> active speakers.
>
> Fig. 3 is for balanced inputs.
> I highly recommend this version if balanced inputs are available.
> Of course there are other options connecting an unbalanced output to a
> balanced input.
> But I often had good experiences with this one.
>
> Fig 4. shows the (only possible?) connection scheme for unbalanced
> inputs.
> I encountered hum with this one. But lifting the ground by the ground
> lift switch on the power amp made it work.
> (If your power amp / active speaker has only unbalanced inputs and no
> ground lift switch, there may be a problem.)
>
> again, I hope this helps...
>
> best wishes,
>
> Pierre

hello pierre

you are a really great person! Thank you so much. The working diagram
(fig.2) i don"t understand exactly. you must know, that on my motu
1224 the connectors are jack. my interpretation of this drawing is as
follows: Pin 1 shield is not connected, but another cable that is
aligned with the shield is connected to the dayner jack sleeve. What
is the difference between pin1 in drawing 1 and pin1 in drawing 2??
what do you mean with the wiring from pin 1 in fig.2?

very much and friendly thanks
sascha

Re: d&r dayner hookup problems

hi Sascha,

many thanks for the "great person" :-) I just want to help.
Dayner users must stick together!

I did 2 more drawings which I think will clear things up:
* w w w .mellowmatic . net /dayner/images/connections2.gif

Fig. 5 shows the schematic representation of a symmetrical cable,
which I used for all the drawings.
Everything in black (lower line + the 2 squashed circles) is the cable
shield,
the blue and red lines are the 2 wires inside.

Fig. 6 shows the working version, the upper drawing is for stereo
jack, the lower the corresponding one for XLR (like fig. 2).
- The ground on Motu (sleeve on jack, pin 1 on XLR ) is connected to
the cable shield
but also to one of the wires. On the Dayner side only the wire is
connected to the sleeve.

- "Hot" on Motu (tip on jack, pin 2 on XLR ) is connected to the other
wire, which connects to the ring of the dayner jack.

- "Cold" on Motu isn't connected at all.

Some general words:
you said that the problems started when connecting something to the
CRM out.
I would leave the connections to the Motu alone and focus on the
connections on the CRM out.
Your KRK V88 monitors have balanced inputs, so try the connection
scheme on fig. 3.
I did it this way and it helped me a lot!

and again: I hope this helps

greetings,

Pierre

Dayner users must stick together! :-)

Re: d&r dayner hookup problems

On 7 Mai, 22:20, mellowmatic <aquar...@pt.lu> wrote:
> hi Sascha,
>
> many thanks for the "great person" :-) I just want to help.
> Dayner users must stick together!
>
> I did 2 more drawings which I think will clear things up: * w w w .mellowmatic . net /dayner/images/connections2.gif
>
> Fig. 5 shows the schematic representation of a symmetrical cable,
> which I used for all the drawings.
> Everything in black (lower line + the 2 squashed circles) is the cable
> shield,
> the blue and red lines are the 2 wires inside.
>
> Fig. 6 shows the working version, the upper drawing is for stereo
> jack, the lower the corresponding one for XLR (like fig. 2).
> - The ground on Motu (sleeve on jack, pin 1 on XLR ) is connected to
> the cable shield
> but also to one of the wires. On the Dayner side only the wire is
> connected to the sleeve.
>
> - "Hot" on Motu (tip on jack, pin 2 on XLR ) is connected to the other
> wire, which connects to the ring of the dayner jack.
>
> - "Cold" on Motu isn't connected at all.
>
> Some general words:
> you said that the problems started when connecting something to the
> CRM out.
> I would leave the connections to the Motu alone and focus on the
> connections on the CRM out.
> Your KRK V88 monitors have balanced inputs, so try the connection
> scheme on fig. 3.
> I did it this way and it helped me a lot!
>
> and again: I hope this helps
>
> greetings,
>
> Pierre
>
> Dayner users must stick together! :-)

Dear Pierre

I try your version, but the result is that the ground loop say hello!
My wiring that works is as follows: motu hot (tip) to dayner hot
(ring), motu cold (ring) to dayner sleeve, motu sleeve (not connected)
to dayner sleeve. The only problem by this solution is, that the
signal is 6db to loud! But at this way i had absolutely no hum and
noise. At this configuration i can push 32 fader to the "0" position
and pull my monitors on the max and all i can hear is a basic
"hiss" (very quiet!) and no hum. Is there an alternative, that i can
reduce the level whithout hum? And is it normal, when the tape return
comes in with 0db and the tape send put the signal out with -6db? I
don"t understand this. Can you explain me that?
thanks for your feedback
Sascha

Dayner users get worked..........................

greetings and good night

Re: d&r dayner hookup problems

hi Sascha,

what happens if you disconnect the ring on Motu?

greetings,

Pierre

Re: d&r dayner hookup problems

On 8 Mai, 08:40, mellowmatic <aquar...@pt.lu> wrote:
> hi Sascha,
>
> what happens if you disconnect the ring on Motu?
>
> greetings,
>
> Pierre

hi pierre

when i disconnect the ring a loud hum is the answer. i have"d try all
possibilities, and the only that work is the example from my previous
post. The only chance i can see is the level from the motu to
decrease. but this is not the best solution. i will write when the
wiring is completed!

greetings sascha

Re: d&r dayner hookup problems


<gickosa@yahoo.de> wrote in message news:31bd4365-2cda-4ce1-8079-40789137b392@34g2000hsf.googlegroups . com ...
> On 8 Mai, 08:40, mellowmatic <aquar...@pt.lu> wrote:
> > hi Sascha,
> >
> > what happens if you disconnect the ring on Motu?
> >
> > greetings,
> >
> > Pierre
>
> hi pierre
>
> when i disconnect the ring a loud hum is the answer. i have"d try all
> possibilities, and the only that work is the example from my previous
> post. The only chance i can see is the level from the motu to
> decrease. but this is not the best solution. i will write when the
> wiring is completed!
>
> greetings sascha


If I am not sadly mistaken, all 1/4" channel I/O's on the Dayner are
two-conductor (unbalanced) plus 4, with the exception of the control
room outs. Your initial grounding system and wiring appeared to be
correct, but I lost track of where your level mismatch was ocurring.
perhaps a simple calibration of the console metering to match the
MOTU level indicators is needed.

DM

(feel free to tell me that I am sadly mistaken ;-)


--
David Morgan (MAMS)
Morgan Audio Media Service
* w w w .m-a-m-s DOT com
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_____________________________
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