need help choosing between line level cables

need help choosing between line level cables

I'm looking to buy cabling to run line-level stereo audio through the
walls of my home (tape mon output of one receiver/amp, thru walls and
into another amp). It's for an outdoor stereo so I don't need the
end-all-be-all best sound, just decent, humless audio. The most common
cabling choice seems to be Belden 9451D. Another Belden cable, 8723,
looks identical--I can't see what the difference is. Does anyone have an
opinion on which is better? I'd prefer the 8723 since I can find it sold
by the foot, the 9451D is only available in bulk.

Belden 8723: * w w w .weisd . com /store2/BEL8723%20060U1000B.html

Belden 9451D: * w w w .sjmediasystem . com /bl-9451d-1000.html

Re: need help choosing between line level cables

"toecheese" wrote ...
> I'm looking to buy cabling to run line-level stereo audio through the
> walls of my home (tape mon output of one receiver/amp, thru walls and
> into another amp). It's for an outdoor stereo so I don't need the
> end-all-be-all best sound, just decent, humless audio. The most common
> cabling choice seems to be Belden 9451D. Another Belden cable, 8723,
> looks identical--I can't see what the difference is. Does anyone have
> an opinion on which is better? I'd prefer the 8723 since I can find it
> sold by the foot, the 9451D is only available in bulk.
>
> Belden 8723: * w w w .weisd . com /store2/BEL8723%20060U1000B.html
>
> Belden 9451D: * w w w .sjmediasystem . com /bl-9451d-1000.html

I would buy whatever is cheaper and/or more convenient.
It is unlikely you will experience any performance difference
between those two cable models.

There are likely even less expensive options for install-grade
shielded twisted-pair audio cable. I'm a big fan of good-old
Belden cable, but for fixed-install use at home, I'd rather
save some $$ on the cable and spend it on good balancing
transformers for each end.

Of course you ARE using balancing transformers at each
end, right? Without transformers, at least at ONE end,
you will likely run into ground-loop hum problems that
cannot be fixed with even the most expensive cable.

Re: need help choosing between line level cables


> Of course you ARE using balancing transformers at each
> end, right? Without transformers, at least at ONE end,
> you will likely run into ground-loop hum problems that
> cannot be fixed with even the most expensive cable.


I wasn't planning on it, no. I'm not using grounded equipment, so I
figured ground loops wouldn't be an issue.

Re: need help choosing between line level cables

"toecheese" wrote ...
>> Of course you ARE using balancing transformers at each
>> end, right? Without transformers, at least at ONE end,
>> you will likely run into ground-loop hum problems that
>> cannot be fixed with even the most expensive cable.
>
>
> I wasn't planning on it, no. I'm not using grounded
> equipment, so I figured ground loops wouldn't be an
> issue.

It has little to do with whether your equipment
is gounded or not. You might get lucky, but don't
plan on it.

Annother option that is becoming more popular
these days is using computer networking cable
("Cat5" UTP Unshielded Twisted Pair).

There are many sources of balun transformers for
both audio and video to use this inexpensive (but
super-balanced) cable. That would be my first
choice for new installations. For example...
* w w w .mcmelectronics . com /product/50-7725

Re: need help choosing between line level cables

Good to know, I'll see first if I get a hum and if so I'll try the
transformer.

using CAT5 sounds interesting, but does that give me a stereo pair or
would I need two separate CAT5 cables? As it is the Belden stereo cable
is only about $25 for the 60 foot run I need.

Re: need help choosing between line level cables

"toecheese" wrote...
> Good to know, I'll see first if I get a hum and if so
> I'll try the transformer.
>
> using CAT5 sounds interesting, but does that give
> me a stereo pair or would I need two separate CAT5
> cables? As it is the Belden stereo cable is only about
> $25 for the 60 foot run I need.

You actually get four pair in a Cat5 cable.
The advantage of Cat5 is that you can run
video (and even computer network !) over
it. The audio cable is pretty much a one-
trick pony.

75 ft of Cat5 is $11 at my local shop.
Complete with connectors already installed.

Re: need help choosing between line level cables



Richard Crowley wrote:

> "toecheese" wrote...
> > Good to know, I'll see first if I get a hum and if so
> > I'll try the transformer.
> >
> > using CAT5 sounds interesting, but does that give
> > me a stereo pair or would I need two separate CAT5
> > cables? As it is the Belden stereo cable is only about
> > $25 for the 60 foot run I need.
>
> You actually get four pair in a Cat5 cable.
> The advantage of Cat5 is that you can run
> video (and even computer network !) over
> it. The audio cable is pretty much a one-
> trick pony.
>
> 75 ft of Cat5 is $11 at my local shop.
> Complete with connectors already installed.

And a couple of good audio transformers is probably ~ $200 !

Graham

Re: need help choosing between line level cables

"Eeyore" wrote...
> Richard Crowley wrote:
>
>> "toecheese" wrote...
>> > Good to know, I'll see first if I get a hum and if so
>> > I'll try the transformer.
>> >
>> > using CAT5 sounds interesting, but does that give
>> > me a stereo pair or would I need two separate CAT5
>> > cables? As it is the Belden stereo cable is only about
>> > $25 for the 60 foot run I need.
>>
>> You actually get four pair in a Cat5 cable.
>> The advantage of Cat5 is that you can run
>> video (and even computer network !) over
>> it. The audio cable is pretty much a one-
>> trick pony.
>>
>> 75 ft of Cat5 is $11 at my local shop.
>> Complete with connectors already installed.
>
> And a couple of good audio transformers is probably ~ $200 !

And I'd bet that he will need transformers (of whatever
grade) regardless of what kind of cable he uses.
Running 65 feet of cable between pieces of
consumer audio equipment in different rooms
is a standard setup for hum and similar problems.

Perhaps you missed my reference to a $35 solution.

Re: need help choosing between line level cables



Richard Crowley wrote:

> "Eeyore" wrote...
> > Richard Crowley wrote:
> >> "toecheese" wrote...
> >
> >> > Good to know, I'll see first if I get a hum and if so
> >> > I'll try the transformer.
> >> >
> >> > using CAT5 sounds interesting, but does that give
> >> > me a stereo pair or would I need two separate CAT5
> >> > cables? As it is the Belden stereo cable is only about
> >> > $25 for the 60 foot run I need.
> >>
> >> You actually get four pair in a Cat5 cable.
> >> The advantage of Cat5 is that you can run
> >> video (and even computer network !) over
> >> it. The audio cable is pretty much a one-
> >> trick pony.
> >>
> >> 75 ft of Cat5 is $11 at my local shop.
> >> Complete with connectors already installed.
> >
> > And a couple of good audio transformers is probably ~ $200 !
>
> And I'd bet that he will need transformers (of whatever
> grade) regardless of what kind of cable he uses.
> Running 65 feet of cable between pieces of
> consumer audio equipment in different rooms
> is a standard setup for hum and similar problems.

Not at all when there's no common mains ground connection.

Graham

Re: need help choosing between line level cables

"Eeyore" wrote ...
> Richard Crowley wrote:
>> And I'd bet that he will need transformers (of whatever
>> grade) regardless of what kind of cable he uses.
>> Running 65 feet of cable between pieces of
>> consumer audio equipment in different rooms
>> is a standard setup for hum and similar problems.
>
> Not at all when there's no common mains ground connection.

Your optimism is admirable and I would be very grateful
if it were accurate. Alas, it doesn't wash in my reality.
(Not to mention the numerous posts from people who
have tried it and come here asking for solutions.)
I'm willing to wait for the results of the OP's actual
implementation.

Re: need help choosing between line level cables



Richard Crowley wrote:

> "Eeyore" wrote ...
> > Richard Crowley wrote:
> >> And I'd bet that he will need transformers (of whatever
> >> grade) regardless of what kind of cable he uses.
> >> Running 65 feet of cable between pieces of
> >> consumer audio equipment in different rooms
> >> is a standard setup for hum and similar problems.
> >
> > Not at all when there's no common mains ground connection.
>
> Your optimism is admirable and I would be very grateful
> if it were accurate.

I've had no trouble with that style of working myself.


> Alas, it doesn't wash in my reality.
> (Not to mention the numerous posts from people who
> have tried it and come here asking for solutions.)
> I'm willing to wait for the results of the OP's actual
> implementation.

In order for there to be a ground loop there first has to be a LOOP !
The issue with laptops is something else entirely.

Graham

Re: need help choosing between line level cables

In article <WY6dndLx74TP4J VnZ2dnUVZ t6onZ2d@pcez>,
"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley@xp7rt . net > wrote:

> "Eeyore" wrote...
> > Richard Crowley wrote:
> >
> >> "toecheese" wrote...
> >> > Good to know, I'll see first if I get a hum and if so
> >> > I'll try the transformer.
> >> >
> >> > using CAT5 sounds interesting, but does that give
> >> > me a stereo pair or would I need two separate CAT5
> >> > cables? As it is the Belden stereo cable is only about
> >> > $25 for the 60 foot run I need.
> >>
> >> You actually get four pair in a Cat5 cable.
> >> The advantage of Cat5 is that you can run
> >> video (and even computer network !) over
> >> it. The audio cable is pretty much a one-
> >> trick pony.
> >>
> >> 75 ft of Cat5 is $11 at my local shop.
> >> Complete with connectors already installed.
> >
> > And a couple of good audio transformers is probably ~ $200 !
>
> And I'd bet that he will need transformers (of whatever
> grade) regardless of what kind of cable he uses.
> Running 65 feet of cable between pieces of
> consumer audio equipment in different rooms
> is a standard setup for hum and similar problems.
>
> Perhaps you missed my reference to a $35 solution.

$15 for Cat6 and $20 left over for balancing transformers? I don't
think that would work well.

He gave links to balanced wiring. Balanced audio allows for a bit of a
grounding mismatch between equipment. If his equipment supports it,
balanced wiring is by far the cheapest and highest quality way to do
this.

--
Block Google's spam and enjoy Usenet again.
Reply with Google and I won't hear from you.

Re: need help choosing between line level cables



Kevin McMurtrie wrote:

> "Richard Crowley" <rcrowley@xp7rt . net > wrote:
> > "Eeyore" wrote...
> > > Richard Crowley wrote:
> > >> "toecheese" wrote...
> > >
> > >> > Good to know, I'll see first if I get a hum and if so
> > >> > I'll try the transformer.
> > >> >
> > >> > using CAT5 sounds interesting, but does that give
> > >> > me a stereo pair or would I need two separate CAT5
> > >> > cables? As it is the Belden stereo cable is only about
> > >> > $25 for the 60 foot run I need.
> > >>
> > >> You actually get four pair in a Cat5 cable.
> > >> The advantage of Cat5 is that you can run
> > >> video (and even computer network !) over
> > >> it. The audio cable is pretty much a one-
> > >> trick pony.
> > >>
> > >> 75 ft of Cat5 is $11 at my local shop.
> > >> Complete with connectors already installed.
> > >
> > > And a couple of good audio transformers is probably ~ $200 !
> >
> > And I'd bet that he will need transformers (of whatever
> > grade) regardless of what kind of cable he uses.
> > Running 65 feet of cable between pieces of
> > consumer audio equipment in different rooms
> > is a standard setup for hum and similar problems.
> >
> > Perhaps you missed my reference to a $35 solution.
>
> $15 for Cat6 and $20 left over for balancing transformers? I don't
> think that would work well.
>
> He gave links to balanced wiring. Balanced audio allows for a bit of a
> grounding mismatch between equipment.

Errr ... that's not actually quite the intention per se but it would cope
with that.


> If his equipment supports it, balanced wiring is by far the cheapest and
> highest quality way to do
> this.

Balanced wiring only gives you an advantage if the equipment is balanced.
With clever wiring it's only actually necessary for either the 'sending' or
'receiving' equipment to have a balanced input or ouput but you need to
know what you're doing in this case.

Graham

Re: need help choosing between line level cables

"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail . com > wrote in
message news:4804960C.2046F6A0@hotmail . com

> Balanced wiring only gives you an advantage if the
> equipment is balanced. With clever wiring it's only
> actually necessary for either the 'sending' or
> 'receiving' equipment to have a balanced input or ouput
> but you need to know what you're doing in this case.

I know the strong advantage that balanced inputs give, but what advantage do
you get from an electronically-balanced output driving an unbalanced input?

Re: need help choosing between line level cables

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 07:52:51 -0400, "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com >
wrote:

>"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail . com > wrote in
>message news:4804960C.2046F6A0@hotmail . com
>
>> Balanced wiring only gives you an advantage if the
>> equipment is balanced. With clever wiring it's only
>> actually necessary for either the 'sending' or
>> 'receiving' equipment to have a balanced input or ouput
>> but you need to know what you're doing in this case.
>
>I know the strong advantage that balanced inputs give, but what advantage do
>you get from an electronically-balanced output driving an unbalanced input?
>

Provided you have an appropriate balun, like a transformer at the
input, you get all of the advantages.

d

--

d