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Low frequencies on a 6.5" sub?
Low frequencies on a 6.5" sub?
Would I be able to get low 40-90Hz sounds from a 6.5" sealed sub in a car?
I'm looking to use my factory sub with a different amp with an adjustable
crossover to turn the resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz range to
the 50-90 range. I'm looking for decent-quality sound without being
"boomy." Has anyone seen this done easily, or am I looking for too much out
of a 6.5" sub? Would I need to go to 8, 10, 12 inches? I'm not really
willing to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only retrofit an
existing setup to the current spot where the stock speaker is.
Phil
Would I be able to get low 40-90Hz sounds from a 6.5" sealed sub in a car?
I'm looking to use my factory sub with a different amp with an adjustable
crossover to turn the resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz range to
the 50-90 range. I'm looking for decent-quality sound without being
"boomy." Has anyone seen this done easily, or am I looking for too much out
of a 6.5" sub? Would I need to go to 8, 10, 12 inches? I'm not really
willing to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only retrofit an
existing setup to the current spot where the stock speaker is.
Phil
Re: Low frequencies on a 6.5" sub?
Phil wrote:
> Would I be able to get low 40-90Hz sounds from a 6.5" sealed sub in a car?
> I'm looking to use my factory sub with a different amp with an adjustable
> crossover to turn the resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz range to
> the 50-90 range. I'm looking for decent-quality sound without being
> "boomy." Has anyone seen this done easily, or am I looking for too much out
> of a 6.5" sub? Would I need to go to 8, 10, 12 inches? I'm not really
> willing to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only retrofit an
> existing setup to the current spot where the stock speaker is.
Expecting much bass from a 6 inch speaker is a bit silly quite frankly. It'll be
hopelessly inefficient for one thing and that's down to basic physics. For bass,
the bigger the better is pretty much the rule.
Graham
Phil wrote:
> Would I be able to get low 40-90Hz sounds from a 6.5" sealed sub in a car?
> I'm looking to use my factory sub with a different amp with an adjustable
> crossover to turn the resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz range to
> the 50-90 range. I'm looking for decent-quality sound without being
> "boomy." Has anyone seen this done easily, or am I looking for too much out
> of a 6.5" sub? Would I need to go to 8, 10, 12 inches? I'm not really
> willing to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only retrofit an
> existing setup to the current spot where the stock speaker is.
Expecting much bass from a 6 inch speaker is a bit silly quite frankly. It'll be
hopelessly inefficient for one thing and that's down to basic physics. For bass,
the bigger the better is pretty much the rule.
Graham
Re: Low frequencies on a 6.5" sub?
"Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
news:481912a7$0$7052$4c368faf@roadrunner . com ...
> Would I be able to get low 40-90Hz sounds from a 6.5" sealed sub in a car? I'm looking to
> use my factory sub with a different amp with an adjustable crossover to turn the
> resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz range to the 50-90 range. I'm looking for
> decent-quality sound without being "boomy." Has anyone seen this done easily, or am I
> looking for too much out of a 6.5" sub? Would I need to go to 8, 10, 12 inches? I'm not
> really willing to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only retrofit an existing
> setup to the current spot where the stock speaker is.
>
> Phil
Phil,
It's quite possible, but only because it's in a sealed small space. If it's a big SUV, then
less likely. Drive that car off a cliff. Response at a reasonable power level is likely
possible to 40 Hz. Wouldn't happen much in a living room with one such speaker. I've seen
it done in a car, but with two such woofers -- damn thing actually was pretty flat to 20 Hz,
and not all that low in volume either. It could deliver down to 40 Hz really loudly. I had
trouble believing it. With one, I'd guess it'd need to be a pretty decent woofer (good
xmax), though.
Not sure what you mean by turning the crossover to 50-90. The crossover limits the upper
frequency to which the woofer operates, and you must ensure that it gets up to where the
regular speakers are good. Many car speakers, especially door speakers, are pretty weak in
the 100-200 range. Changing the crossover freq doesn't affect the lower limit.
--
Regards from Virginia Beach,
Earl
"Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
news:481912a7$0$7052$4c368faf@roadrunner . com ...
> Would I be able to get low 40-90Hz sounds from a 6.5" sealed sub in a car? I'm looking to
> use my factory sub with a different amp with an adjustable crossover to turn the
> resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz range to the 50-90 range. I'm looking for
> decent-quality sound without being "boomy." Has anyone seen this done easily, or am I
> looking for too much out of a 6.5" sub? Would I need to go to 8, 10, 12 inches? I'm not
> really willing to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only retrofit an existing
> setup to the current spot where the stock speaker is.
>
> Phil
Phil,
It's quite possible, but only because it's in a sealed small space. If it's a big SUV, then
less likely. Drive that car off a cliff. Response at a reasonable power level is likely
possible to 40 Hz. Wouldn't happen much in a living room with one such speaker. I've seen
it done in a car, but with two such woofers -- damn thing actually was pretty flat to 20 Hz,
and not all that low in volume either. It could deliver down to 40 Hz really loudly. I had
trouble believing it. With one, I'd guess it'd need to be a pretty decent woofer (good
xmax), though.
Not sure what you mean by turning the crossover to 50-90. The crossover limits the upper
frequency to which the woofer operates, and you must ensure that it gets up to where the
regular speakers are good. Many car speakers, especially door speakers, are pretty weak in
the 100-200 range. Changing the crossover freq doesn't affect the lower limit.
--
Regards from Virginia Beach,
Earl
Re: Low frequencies on a 6.5" sub?
In article <481912a7$0$7052$4c368faf@roadrunner . com >,
"Phil" <phil lee@hotmail . com > wrote:
> Would I be able to get low 40-90Hz sounds from a 6.5" sealed sub in a car?
> I'm looking to use my factory sub with a different amp with an adjustable
> crossover to turn the resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz range to
> the 50-90 range. I'm looking for decent-quality sound without being
> "boomy." Has anyone seen this done easily, or am I looking for too much out
> of a 6.5" sub? Would I need to go to 8, 10, 12 inches? I'm not really
> willing to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only retrofit an
> existing setup to the current spot where the stock speaker is.
>
> Phil
One 6.5 would be difficult. Its efficiency and power handling at 40Hz
is going to be miserable. There will be a lot more heat coming out than
sound.
Do you have a reasonably well sealed trunk with 6x9 mounts? Some 6x9
speaker models have the long excursion and soft suspension to perform
well at low frequencies. Cabin gain and careful EQ tuning could get you
down to 20Hz with a pretty good sound level.
--
Block Google's spam and enjoy Usenet again.
Reply with Google and I won't hear from you.
In article <481912a7$0$7052$4c368faf@roadrunner . com >,
"Phil" <phil lee@hotmail . com > wrote:
> Would I be able to get low 40-90Hz sounds from a 6.5" sealed sub in a car?
> I'm looking to use my factory sub with a different amp with an adjustable
> crossover to turn the resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz range to
> the 50-90 range. I'm looking for decent-quality sound without being
> "boomy." Has anyone seen this done easily, or am I looking for too much out
> of a 6.5" sub? Would I need to go to 8, 10, 12 inches? I'm not really
> willing to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only retrofit an
> existing setup to the current spot where the stock speaker is.
>
> Phil
One 6.5 would be difficult. Its efficiency and power handling at 40Hz
is going to be miserable. There will be a lot more heat coming out than
sound.
Do you have a reasonably well sealed trunk with 6x9 mounts? Some 6x9
speaker models have the long excursion and soft suspension to perform
well at low frequencies. Cabin gain and careful EQ tuning could get you
down to 20Hz with a pretty good sound level.
--
Block Google's spam and enjoy Usenet again.
Reply with Google and I won't hear from you.
Re: Low frequencies on a 6.5" sub?
"Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
news:481912a7$0$7052$4c368faf@roadrunner . com
> Would I be able to get low 40-90Hz sounds from a 6.5"
> sealed sub in a car?
Shouldn't be a problem, with the right 6.5 inch driver. Efficiency won't be
wonderful, and you may have to search around for a 6.5 inch woofer with
enough Xmax. I think there are some in the Peerless catalog.
Doing low bass in a car is far easier than in rooms, because a car is in
essence a small room. Even a large SUV does not have a lot of cubes compared
to a typical listening room.
> I'm looking to use my factory sub
> with a different amp with an adjustable crossover to turn
> the resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz range to
> the 50-90 range.
What car?
> I'm looking for decent-quality sound
> without being "boomy."
Doable. If the problem is boominess, it might be that your car audio system
has the basics for low bass, but suffers from a poor factory tuning. The
audio system in my Milan sounds like boomy, tizzly crap until you work over
the bass and treble controls. Max cut for the bass, lots of cut on the
treble.
> Has anyone seen this done easily,
> or am I looking for too much out of a 6.5" sub? Would I
> need to go to 8, 10, 12 inches?
Low bass is all about displacing air. The ability to move air goes up with
the approximate cube of the diameter. Squared because of simple geometry of
areas, and cubed because there is a fair correlation between diameter and
Xmax.
> I'm not really willing
> to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only
> retrofit an existing setup to the current spot where the
> stock speaker is.
Try equalization, then try a large Xmax driver, more power and keep on
working with equalization.
"Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
news:481912a7$0$7052$4c368faf@roadrunner . com
> Would I be able to get low 40-90Hz sounds from a 6.5"
> sealed sub in a car?
Shouldn't be a problem, with the right 6.5 inch driver. Efficiency won't be
wonderful, and you may have to search around for a 6.5 inch woofer with
enough Xmax. I think there are some in the Peerless catalog.
Doing low bass in a car is far easier than in rooms, because a car is in
essence a small room. Even a large SUV does not have a lot of cubes compared
to a typical listening room.
> I'm looking to use my factory sub
> with a different amp with an adjustable crossover to turn
> the resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz range to
> the 50-90 range.
What car?
> I'm looking for decent-quality sound
> without being "boomy."
Doable. If the problem is boominess, it might be that your car audio system
has the basics for low bass, but suffers from a poor factory tuning. The
audio system in my Milan sounds like boomy, tizzly crap until you work over
the bass and treble controls. Max cut for the bass, lots of cut on the
treble.
> Has anyone seen this done easily,
> or am I looking for too much out of a 6.5" sub? Would I
> need to go to 8, 10, 12 inches?
Low bass is all about displacing air. The ability to move air goes up with
the approximate cube of the diameter. Squared because of simple geometry of
areas, and cubed because there is a fair correlation between diameter and
Xmax.
> I'm not really willing
> to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only
> retrofit an existing setup to the current spot where the
> stock speaker is.
Try equalization, then try a large Xmax driver, more power and keep on
working with equalization.
Re: Low frequencies on a 6.5" sub?
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote in message
news:QI2dnWsKt7JXPYTVnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast . com ...
> "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
> news:481912a7$0$7052$4c368faf@roadrunner . com
>
>> Would I be able to get low 40-90Hz sounds from a 6.5"
>> sealed sub in a car?
>
> Shouldn't be a problem, with the right 6.5 inch driver. Efficiency won't
> be wonderful, and you may have to search around for a 6.5 inch woofer with
> enough Xmax. I think there are some in the Peerless catalog.
>
> Doing low bass in a car is far easier than in rooms, because a car is in
> essence a small room. Even a large SUV does not have a lot of cubes
> compared to a typical listening room.
>
>> I'm looking to use my factory sub
>> with a different amp with an adjustable crossover to turn
>> the resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz range to
>> the 50-90 range.
>
> What car?
2008 Scion TC. Small cabin and very small trunk.
>> I'm looking for decent-quality sound
>> without being "boomy."
>
> Doable. If the problem is boominess, it might be that your car audio
> system has the basics for low bass, but suffers from a poor factory
> tuning. The audio system in my Milan sounds like boomy, tizzly crap until
> you work over the bass and treble controls. Max cut for the bass, lots of
> cut on the treble.
That's what I'm thinking. I ran a test track outputting a sine wave from
350 Hz to 20Hz and it definitely started becoming boomy starting at 250Hz
and sharply cut response at 160Hz. It was the first time I had run such an
audio signal through the system and I was surprised to see that the car's
engineers had seemed to band-pass that range to get the maximum amount of
boom for the small wattage factory sub amp. Quite annoying because some of
the songs that I listen to will be resonate-y at some points and then lose
the low end, especially on sweepy types of tracks.
>> Has anyone seen this done easily,
>> or am I looking for too much out of a 6.5" sub? Would I
>> need to go to 8, 10, 12 inches?
>
> Low bass is all about displacing air. The ability to move air goes up with
> the approximate cube of the diameter. Squared because of simple geometry
> of areas, and cubed because there is a fair correlation between diameter
> and Xmax.
Makes sense... probably akin to the volume formula of a cylinder, huh?
>> I'm not really willing
>> to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only
>> retrofit an existing setup to the current spot where the
>> stock speaker is.
>
> Try equalization, then try a large Xmax driver, more power and keep on
> working with equalization.
I ended up getting a cheap amp with a on eBay last night... I'm beginning
to think I'm about to embark on an expensive endeavor ;)
Would any old equalizer like something here do the trick?
* w w w .pyramidcaraudio . com /itempage.asp?model=714EX
Phil
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote in message
news:QI2dnWsKt7JXPYTVnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast . com ...
> "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
> news:481912a7$0$7052$4c368faf@roadrunner . com
>
>> Would I be able to get low 40-90Hz sounds from a 6.5"
>> sealed sub in a car?
>
> Shouldn't be a problem, with the right 6.5 inch driver. Efficiency won't
> be wonderful, and you may have to search around for a 6.5 inch woofer with
> enough Xmax. I think there are some in the Peerless catalog.
>
> Doing low bass in a car is far easier than in rooms, because a car is in
> essence a small room. Even a large SUV does not have a lot of cubes
> compared to a typical listening room.
>
>> I'm looking to use my factory sub
>> with a different amp with an adjustable crossover to turn
>> the resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz range to
>> the 50-90 range.
>
> What car?
2008 Scion TC. Small cabin and very small trunk.
>> I'm looking for decent-quality sound
>> without being "boomy."
>
> Doable. If the problem is boominess, it might be that your car audio
> system has the basics for low bass, but suffers from a poor factory
> tuning. The audio system in my Milan sounds like boomy, tizzly crap until
> you work over the bass and treble controls. Max cut for the bass, lots of
> cut on the treble.
That's what I'm thinking. I ran a test track outputting a sine wave from
350 Hz to 20Hz and it definitely started becoming boomy starting at 250Hz
and sharply cut response at 160Hz. It was the first time I had run such an
audio signal through the system and I was surprised to see that the car's
engineers had seemed to band-pass that range to get the maximum amount of
boom for the small wattage factory sub amp. Quite annoying because some of
the songs that I listen to will be resonate-y at some points and then lose
the low end, especially on sweepy types of tracks.
>> Has anyone seen this done easily,
>> or am I looking for too much out of a 6.5" sub? Would I
>> need to go to 8, 10, 12 inches?
>
> Low bass is all about displacing air. The ability to move air goes up with
> the approximate cube of the diameter. Squared because of simple geometry
> of areas, and cubed because there is a fair correlation between diameter
> and Xmax.
Makes sense... probably akin to the volume formula of a cylinder, huh?
>> I'm not really willing
>> to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only
>> retrofit an existing setup to the current spot where the
>> stock speaker is.
>
> Try equalization, then try a large Xmax driver, more power and keep on
> working with equalization.
I ended up getting a cheap amp with a on eBay last night... I'm beginning
to think I'm about to embark on an expensive endeavor ;)
Would any old equalizer like something here do the trick?
* w w w .pyramidcaraudio . com /itempage.asp?model=714EX
Phil
Re: Low frequencies on a 6.5" sub?
On Thu, 1 May 2008 22:51:55 -0400, "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com >
wrote:
>I ended up getting a cheap amp with a on eBay last night... I'm beginning
>to think I'm about to embark on an expensive endeavor ;)
There isn't, of course, any possibility that you'd consider your
hearing to be more important than the embarassingly loud "music"
broadcast from your car to innocent strangers?
No, didn't think so. Good luck in the seventh circle,
Chris Hornbeck
"It's for compatibility with 8-Track."
-scott
On Thu, 1 May 2008 22:51:55 -0400, "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com >
wrote:
>I ended up getting a cheap amp with a on eBay last night... I'm beginning
>to think I'm about to embark on an expensive endeavor ;)
There isn't, of course, any possibility that you'd consider your
hearing to be more important than the embarassingly loud "music"
broadcast from your car to innocent strangers?
No, didn't think so. Good luck in the seventh circle,
Chris Hornbeck
"It's for compatibility with 8-Track."
-scott
Re: Low frequencies on a 6.5" sub?
In article <8j0l14t3mjgelja7jpncl2j4ikel3ifp3u@4ax . com >,
Chris Hornbeck <chrishornbeckremovethis@att . net > wrote:
> On Thu, 1 May 2008 22:51:55 -0400, "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com >
> wrote:
>
> >I ended up getting a cheap amp with a on eBay last night... I'm beginning
> >to think I'm about to embark on an expensive endeavor ;)
>
> There isn't, of course, any possibility that you'd consider your
> hearing to be more important than the embarassingly loud "music"
> broadcast from your car to innocent strangers?
>
> No, didn't think so. Good luck in the seventh circle,
>
> Chris Hornbeck
> "It's for compatibility with 8-Track."
> -scott
Wow, time for a nap?
With bass dropping out at 160 Hz, how could this project be seen as
anything but a vital correction to an unusable system? Hearing is
exactly what the project is about.
--
Block Google's spam and enjoy Usenet again.
Reply with Google and I won't hear from you.
In article <8j0l14t3mjgelja7jpncl2j4ikel3ifp3u@4ax . com >,
Chris Hornbeck <chrishornbeckremovethis@att . net > wrote:
> On Thu, 1 May 2008 22:51:55 -0400, "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com >
> wrote:
>
> >I ended up getting a cheap amp with a on eBay last night... I'm beginning
> >to think I'm about to embark on an expensive endeavor ;)
>
> There isn't, of course, any possibility that you'd consider your
> hearing to be more important than the embarassingly loud "music"
> broadcast from your car to innocent strangers?
>
> No, didn't think so. Good luck in the seventh circle,
>
> Chris Hornbeck
> "It's for compatibility with 8-Track."
> -scott
Wow, time for a nap?
With bass dropping out at 160 Hz, how could this project be seen as
anything but a vital correction to an unusable system? Hearing is
exactly what the project is about.
--
Block Google's spam and enjoy Usenet again.
Reply with Google and I won't hear from you.
Re: Low frequencies on a 6.5" sub?
"Kevin McMurtrie" <mcmurtri@dslextreme . com > wrote in message
news:mcmurtri-90AF9D.22270501052008@softbank060082049208.bbtec . net ...
> In article <8j0l14t3mjgelja7jpncl2j4ikel3ifp3u@4ax . com >,
> Chris Hornbeck <chrishornbeckremovethis@att . net > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 1 May 2008 22:51:55 -0400, "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I ended up getting a cheap amp with a on eBay last night... I'm
>> >beginning
>> >to think I'm about to embark on an expensive endeavor ;)
>>
>> There isn't, of course, any possibility that you'd consider your
>> hearing to be more important than the embarassingly loud "music"
>> broadcast from your car to innocent strangers?
>>
>> No, didn't think so. Good luck in the seventh circle,
>>
>> Chris Hornbeck
>> "It's for compatibility with 8-Track."
>> -scott
>
> Wow, time for a nap?
>
> With bass dropping out at 160 Hz, how could this project be seen as
> anything but a vital correction to an unusable system? Hearing is
> exactly what the project is about.
Thanks... that's what I'm looking for. It's not a boom project to rattle
license plates and be a general nuisance. It's a sound quality issue.
Phil
"Kevin McMurtrie" <mcmurtri@dslextreme . com > wrote in message
news:mcmurtri-90AF9D.22270501052008@softbank060082049208.bbtec . net ...
> In article <8j0l14t3mjgelja7jpncl2j4ikel3ifp3u@4ax . com >,
> Chris Hornbeck <chrishornbeckremovethis@att . net > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 1 May 2008 22:51:55 -0400, "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I ended up getting a cheap amp with a on eBay last night... I'm
>> >beginning
>> >to think I'm about to embark on an expensive endeavor ;)
>>
>> There isn't, of course, any possibility that you'd consider your
>> hearing to be more important than the embarassingly loud "music"
>> broadcast from your car to innocent strangers?
>>
>> No, didn't think so. Good luck in the seventh circle,
>>
>> Chris Hornbeck
>> "It's for compatibility with 8-Track."
>> -scott
>
> Wow, time for a nap?
>
> With bass dropping out at 160 Hz, how could this project be seen as
> anything but a vital correction to an unusable system? Hearing is
> exactly what the project is about.
Thanks... that's what I'm looking for. It's not a boom project to rattle
license plates and be a general nuisance. It's a sound quality issue.
Phil
Re: Low frequencies on a 6.5" sub?
"Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att . net > wrote in message
news:8j0l14t3mjgelja7jpncl2j4ikel3ifp3u@4ax . com ...
>
> There isn't, of course, any possibility that you'd consider your
> hearing to be more important than the embarassingly loud "music"
> broadcast from your car to innocent strangers?
>
> No, didn't think so. Good luck in the seventh circle,
>
Without starting a diatribe against car subwoofers, thank you. Couldn't
have said it better myself.
Dave
"Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att . net > wrote in message
news:8j0l14t3mjgelja7jpncl2j4ikel3ifp3u@4ax . com ...
>
> There isn't, of course, any possibility that you'd consider your
> hearing to be more important than the embarassingly loud "music"
> broadcast from your car to innocent strangers?
>
> No, didn't think so. Good luck in the seventh circle,
>
Without starting a diatribe against car subwoofers, thank you. Couldn't
have said it better myself.
Dave
Re: Low frequencies on a 6.5" sub?
"Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att . net > wrote in message
news:8j0l14t3mjgelja7jpncl2j4ikel3ifp3u@4ax . com ...
> On Thu, 1 May 2008 22:51:55 -0400, "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com >
> wrote:
>
>>I ended up getting a cheap amp with a on eBay last night... I'm beginning
>>to think I'm about to embark on an expensive endeavor ;)
>
> There isn't, of course, any possibility that you'd consider your
> hearing to be more important than the embarassingly loud "music"
> broadcast from your car to innocent strangers?
>
> No, didn't think so. Good luck in the seventh circle,
Err, not quite. I actually had to turn the bass adjustment on the head unit
down all the way down until I jammed foam into the port of the factory box
to damp out the annoying 150-250Hz "buzz". Then it became tolerable at a
neutral setting. It's still too high though.
Phil
"Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att . net > wrote in message
news:8j0l14t3mjgelja7jpncl2j4ikel3ifp3u@4ax . com ...
> On Thu, 1 May 2008 22:51:55 -0400, "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com >
> wrote:
>
>>I ended up getting a cheap amp with a on eBay last night... I'm beginning
>>to think I'm about to embark on an expensive endeavor ;)
>
> There isn't, of course, any possibility that you'd consider your
> hearing to be more important than the embarassingly loud "music"
> broadcast from your car to innocent strangers?
>
> No, didn't think so. Good luck in the seventh circle,
Err, not quite. I actually had to turn the bass adjustment on the head unit
down all the way down until I jammed foam into the port of the factory box
to damp out the annoying 150-250Hz "buzz". Then it became tolerable at a
neutral setting. It's still too high though.
Phil
Re: Low frequencies on a 6.5" sub?
"Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
news:481a81c7$0$4093$4c368faf@roadrunner . com
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote in message
> news:QI2dnWsKt7JXPYTVnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast . com ...
>> "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
>> news:481912a7$0$7052$4c368faf@roadrunner . com
>>> I'm looking to use my factory sub
>>> with a different amp with an adjustable crossover to
>>> turn the resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz
>>> range to the 50-90 range.
>>
>> What car?
> 2008 Scion TC. Small cabin and very small trunk.
>>> I'm looking for decent-quality sound
>>> without being "boomy."
>>
>> Doable. If the problem is boominess, it might be that
>> your car audio system has the basics for low bass, but
>> suffers from a poor factory tuning. The audio system in
>> my Milan sounds like boomy, tizzly crap until you work
>> over the bass and treble controls. Max cut for the bass,
>> lots of cut on the treble.
>
> That's what I'm thinking. I ran a test track outputting
> a sine wave from 350 Hz to 20Hz and it definitely started
> becoming boomy starting at 250Hz and sharply cut response
> at 160Hz.
What were the factory engineers thinking?
> It was the first time I had run such an audio
> signal through the system and I was surprised to see that
> the car's engineers had seemed to band-pass that range to
> get the maximum amount of boom for the small wattage
> factory sub amp.
Factory amps are generally but not totally limited to bridged designs
running directly off the battery. Historically switchmode supplies have been
no-nos due to EMI concerns, but that is changing.
> Quite annoying because some of the
> songs that I listen to will be resonate-y at some points
> and then lose the low end, especially on sweepy types of
> tracks.
What were the factory engineers thinking?????
>> Low bass is all about displacing air. The ability to
>> move air goes up with the approximate cube of the
>> diameter. Squared because of simple geometry of areas,
>> and cubed because there is a fair correlation between
>> diameter and Xmax.
> Makes sense... probably akin to the volume formula of a
> cylinder, huh?
Hold that thought. ;-)
>>> I'm not really willing
>>> to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only
>>> retrofit an existing setup to the current spot where the
>>> stock speaker is.
>> Try equalization, then try a large Xmax driver, more
>> power and keep on working with equalization.
> I ended up getting a cheap amp with a on eBay last
> night... I'm beginning to think I'm about to embark on
> an expensive endeavor ;)
> Would any old equalizer like something here do the trick?
> * w w w .pyramidcaraudio . com /itempage.asp?model=714EX
Well, that might beat nothing, but Pyramid audio is IME generally bottom
feeding.
One of the biggest running jokes in car sound is "Pyramid Watts".
If you're serious about equalization, you'll either go 1/3 octave or
parametric.
You'd like to migrate home and studio technology for signal processing into
that car. This is surprisingly doable because the expanding number of
products from that context run off of 12 volt or less wall-warts, and small
120 volt inverters are also priced attractively and thus definately a
possibility. Combine low-end studio-grade equalizers with a serious
after-market power amp running in bridged mode, and you've got a start on
some good sounds. Along the way, you might fry the 6.5 inch driver or beat
it to death, so that's your cue to check places like Parts Express for 6.5
inch drivers with a lot more Xmax and power-handling capacity.
"Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
news:481a81c7$0$4093$4c368faf@roadrunner . com
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote in message
> news:QI2dnWsKt7JXPYTVnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast . com ...
>> "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
>> news:481912a7$0$7052$4c368faf@roadrunner . com
>>> I'm looking to use my factory sub
>>> with a different amp with an adjustable crossover to
>>> turn the resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz
>>> range to the 50-90 range.
>>
>> What car?
> 2008 Scion TC. Small cabin and very small trunk.
>>> I'm looking for decent-quality sound
>>> without being "boomy."
>>
>> Doable. If the problem is boominess, it might be that
>> your car audio system has the basics for low bass, but
>> suffers from a poor factory tuning. The audio system in
>> my Milan sounds like boomy, tizzly crap until you work
>> over the bass and treble controls. Max cut for the bass,
>> lots of cut on the treble.
>
> That's what I'm thinking. I ran a test track outputting
> a sine wave from 350 Hz to 20Hz and it definitely started
> becoming boomy starting at 250Hz and sharply cut response
> at 160Hz.
What were the factory engineers thinking?
> It was the first time I had run such an audio
> signal through the system and I was surprised to see that
> the car's engineers had seemed to band-pass that range to
> get the maximum amount of boom for the small wattage
> factory sub amp.
Factory amps are generally but not totally limited to bridged designs
running directly off the battery. Historically switchmode supplies have been
no-nos due to EMI concerns, but that is changing.
> Quite annoying because some of the
> songs that I listen to will be resonate-y at some points
> and then lose the low end, especially on sweepy types of
> tracks.
What were the factory engineers thinking?????
>> Low bass is all about displacing air. The ability to
>> move air goes up with the approximate cube of the
>> diameter. Squared because of simple geometry of areas,
>> and cubed because there is a fair correlation between
>> diameter and Xmax.
> Makes sense... probably akin to the volume formula of a
> cylinder, huh?
Hold that thought. ;-)
>>> I'm not really willing
>>> to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only
>>> retrofit an existing setup to the current spot where the
>>> stock speaker is.
>> Try equalization, then try a large Xmax driver, more
>> power and keep on working with equalization.
> I ended up getting a cheap amp with a on eBay last
> night... I'm beginning to think I'm about to embark on
> an expensive endeavor ;)
> Would any old equalizer like something here do the trick?
> * w w w .pyramidcaraudio . com /itempage.asp?model=714EX
Well, that might beat nothing, but Pyramid audio is IME generally bottom
feeding.
One of the biggest running jokes in car sound is "Pyramid Watts".
If you're serious about equalization, you'll either go 1/3 octave or
parametric.
You'd like to migrate home and studio technology for signal processing into
that car. This is surprisingly doable because the expanding number of
products from that context run off of 12 volt or less wall-warts, and small
120 volt inverters are also priced attractively and thus definately a
possibility. Combine low-end studio-grade equalizers with a serious
after-market power amp running in bridged mode, and you've got a start on
some good sounds. Along the way, you might fry the 6.5 inch driver or beat
it to death, so that's your cue to check places like Parts Express for 6.5
inch drivers with a lot more Xmax and power-handling capacity.
Re: Low frequencies on a 6.5" sub?
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote in message
news:MpSdnY5okOtZZofVnZ2dnUVZ_h2pnZ2d@comcast . com ...
> "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
> news:481a81c7$0$4093$4c368faf@roadrunner . com
>> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote in message
>> news:QI2dnWsKt7JXPYTVnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast . com ...
>>> "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
>>> news:481912a7$0$7052$4c368faf@roadrunner . com
>
>>>> I'm looking to use my factory sub
>>>> with a different amp with an adjustable crossover to
>>>> turn the resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz
>>>> range to the 50-90 range.
>>>
>>> What car?
>
>> 2008 Scion TC. Small cabin and very small trunk.
>
>>>> I'm looking for decent-quality sound
>>>> without being "boomy."
>>>
>>> Doable. If the problem is boominess, it might be that
>>> your car audio system has the basics for low bass, but
>>> suffers from a poor factory tuning. The audio system in
>>> my Milan sounds like boomy, tizzly crap until you work
>>> over the bass and treble controls. Max cut for the bass,
>>> lots of cut on the treble.
>>
>> That's what I'm thinking. I ran a test track outputting
>> a sine wave from 350 Hz to 20Hz and it definitely started
>> becoming boomy starting at 250Hz and sharply cut response
>> at 160Hz.
>
> What were the factory engineers thinking?
>
>> It was the first time I had run such an audio
>> signal through the system and I was surprised to see that
>> the car's engineers had seemed to band-pass that range to
>> get the maximum amount of boom for the small wattage
>> factory sub amp.
>
> Factory amps are generally but not totally limited to bridged designs
> running directly off the battery. Historically switchmode supplies have
> been no-nos due to EMI concerns, but that is changing.
You mean 12VDC vs 120VAC?
>> Quite annoying because some of the
>> songs that I listen to will be resonate-y at some points
>> and then lose the low end, especially on sweepy types of
>> tracks.
>
> What were the factory engineers thinking?????
>
>>> Low bass is all about displacing air. The ability to
>>> move air goes up with the approximate cube of the
>>> diameter. Squared because of simple geometry of areas,
>>> and cubed because there is a fair correlation between
>>> diameter and Xmax.
>
>> Makes sense... probably akin to the volume formula of a
>> cylinder, huh?
>
> Hold that thought. ;-)
>
>>>> I'm not really willing
>>>> to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only
>>>> retrofit an existing setup to the current spot where the
>>>> stock speaker is.
>
>>> Try equalization, then try a large Xmax driver, more
>>> power and keep on working with equalization.
>
>> I ended up getting a cheap amp with a on eBay last
>> night... I'm beginning to think I'm about to embark on
>> an expensive endeavor ;)
>
>> Would any old equalizer like something here do the trick?
>
>> * w w w .pyramidcaraudio . com /itempage.asp?model=714EX
>
> Well, that might beat nothing, but Pyramid audio is IME generally bottom
> feeding.
>
> One of the biggest running jokes in car sound is "Pyramid Watts".
I'm not looking for super hi-fi... consider me just slightly more attuned
than your average joe.
> If you're serious about equalization, you'll either go 1/3 octave or
> parametric.
Well, probably not that serious...
> You'd like to migrate home and studio technology for signal processing
> into that car. This is surprisingly doable because the expanding number of
> products from that context run off of 12 volt or less wall-warts, and
> small 120 volt inverters are also priced attractively and thus definately
> a possibility. Combine low-end studio-grade equalizers with a serious
> after-market power amp running in bridged mode, and you've got a start on
> some good sounds. Along the way, you might fry the 6.5 inch driver or beat
> it to death, so that's your cue to check places like Parts Express for 6.5
> inch drivers with a lot more Xmax and power-handling capacity.
Interesting ideas... I'll look into those; thanks.
Phil
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote in message
news:MpSdnY5okOtZZofVnZ2dnUVZ_h2pnZ2d@comcast . com ...
> "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
> news:481a81c7$0$4093$4c368faf@roadrunner . com
>> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote in message
>> news:QI2dnWsKt7JXPYTVnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast . com ...
>>> "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
>>> news:481912a7$0$7052$4c368faf@roadrunner . com
>
>>>> I'm looking to use my factory sub
>>>> with a different amp with an adjustable crossover to
>>>> turn the resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz
>>>> range to the 50-90 range.
>>>
>>> What car?
>
>> 2008 Scion TC. Small cabin and very small trunk.
>
>>>> I'm looking for decent-quality sound
>>>> without being "boomy."
>>>
>>> Doable. If the problem is boominess, it might be that
>>> your car audio system has the basics for low bass, but
>>> suffers from a poor factory tuning. The audio system in
>>> my Milan sounds like boomy, tizzly crap until you work
>>> over the bass and treble controls. Max cut for the bass,
>>> lots of cut on the treble.
>>
>> That's what I'm thinking. I ran a test track outputting
>> a sine wave from 350 Hz to 20Hz and it definitely started
>> becoming boomy starting at 250Hz and sharply cut response
>> at 160Hz.
>
> What were the factory engineers thinking?
>
>> It was the first time I had run such an audio
>> signal through the system and I was surprised to see that
>> the car's engineers had seemed to band-pass that range to
>> get the maximum amount of boom for the small wattage
>> factory sub amp.
>
> Factory amps are generally but not totally limited to bridged designs
> running directly off the battery. Historically switchmode supplies have
> been no-nos due to EMI concerns, but that is changing.
You mean 12VDC vs 120VAC?
>> Quite annoying because some of the
>> songs that I listen to will be resonate-y at some points
>> and then lose the low end, especially on sweepy types of
>> tracks.
>
> What were the factory engineers thinking?????
>
>>> Low bass is all about displacing air. The ability to
>>> move air goes up with the approximate cube of the
>>> diameter. Squared because of simple geometry of areas,
>>> and cubed because there is a fair correlation between
>>> diameter and Xmax.
>
>> Makes sense... probably akin to the volume formula of a
>> cylinder, huh?
>
> Hold that thought. ;-)
>
>>>> I'm not really willing
>>>> to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only
>>>> retrofit an existing setup to the current spot where the
>>>> stock speaker is.
>
>>> Try equalization, then try a large Xmax driver, more
>>> power and keep on working with equalization.
>
>> I ended up getting a cheap amp with a on eBay last
>> night... I'm beginning to think I'm about to embark on
>> an expensive endeavor ;)
>
>> Would any old equalizer like something here do the trick?
>
>> * w w w .pyramidcaraudio . com /itempage.asp?model=714EX
>
> Well, that might beat nothing, but Pyramid audio is IME generally bottom
> feeding.
>
> One of the biggest running jokes in car sound is "Pyramid Watts".
I'm not looking for super hi-fi... consider me just slightly more attuned
than your average joe.
> If you're serious about equalization, you'll either go 1/3 octave or
> parametric.
Well, probably not that serious...
> You'd like to migrate home and studio technology for signal processing
> into that car. This is surprisingly doable because the expanding number of
> products from that context run off of 12 volt or less wall-warts, and
> small 120 volt inverters are also priced attractively and thus definately
> a possibility. Combine low-end studio-grade equalizers with a serious
> after-market power amp running in bridged mode, and you've got a start on
> some good sounds. Along the way, you might fry the 6.5 inch driver or beat
> it to death, so that's your cue to check places like Parts Express for 6.5
> inch drivers with a lot more Xmax and power-handling capacity.
Interesting ideas... I'll look into those; thanks.
Phil
Re: Low frequencies on a 6.5" sub?
"Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
news:481a81c7$0$4093$4c368faf@roadrunner . com ...
>
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote in message
> news:QI2dnWsKt7JXPYTVnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast . com ...
>> "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
>> news:481912a7$0$7052$4c368faf@roadrunner . com
>>
>>> Would I be able to get low 40-90Hz sounds from a 6.5"
>>> sealed sub in a car?
>>
>> Shouldn't be a problem, with the right 6.5 inch driver. Efficiency won't be wonderful,
>> and you may have to search around for a 6.5 inch woofer with enough Xmax. I think there
>> are some in the Peerless catalog.
>>
>> Doing low bass in a car is far easier than in rooms, because a car is in essence a small
>> room. Even a large SUV does not have a lot of cubes compared to a typical listening room.
>>
>>> I'm looking to use my factory sub
>>> with a different amp with an adjustable crossover to turn
>>> the resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz range to
>>> the 50-90 range.
>>
>> What car?
>
> 2008 Scion TC. Small cabin and very small trunk.
>
>>> I'm looking for decent-quality sound
>>> without being "boomy."
>>
>> Doable. If the problem is boominess, it might be that your car audio system has the
>> basics for low bass, but suffers from a poor factory tuning. The audio system in my Milan
>> sounds like boomy, tizzly crap until you work over the bass and treble controls. Max cut
>> for the bass, lots of cut on the treble.
>
> That's what I'm thinking. I ran a test track outputting a sine wave from 350 Hz to 20Hz
> and it definitely started becoming boomy starting at 250Hz and sharply cut response at
> 160Hz. It was the first time I had run such an audio signal through the system and I was
> surprised to see that the car's engineers had seemed to band-pass that range to get the
> maximum amount of boom for the small wattage factory sub amp. Quite annoying because some
> of the songs that I listen to will be resonate-y at some points and then lose the low end,
> especially on sweepy types of tracks.
>
>>> Has anyone seen this done easily,
>>> or am I looking for too much out of a 6.5" sub? Would I
>>> need to go to 8, 10, 12 inches?
>>
>> Low bass is all about displacing air. The ability to move air goes up with the
>> approximate cube of the diameter. Squared because of simple geometry of areas, and cubed
>> because there is a fair correlation between diameter and Xmax.
>
> Makes sense... probably akin to the volume formula of a cylinder, huh?
>
>>> I'm not really willing
>>> to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only
>>> retrofit an existing setup to the current spot where the
>>> stock speaker is.
>>
>> Try equalization, then try a large Xmax driver, more power and keep on working with
>> equalization.
>
> I ended up getting a cheap amp with a on eBay last night... I'm beginning to think I'm
> about to embark on an expensive endeavor ;)
>
> Would any old equalizer like something here do the trick?
>
> * w w w .pyramidcaraudio . com /itempage.asp?model=714EX
>
> Phil
Phil,
A lot of output broadly around 200 Hz. in a regular passenger car, with the speakers in the
rear deck, is universal, even if the speakers are usable down to the bass range. It's an
acoustic thing. A Scion is shaped quite differently, though. But if you're hearing nothing
below 160 Hz, then something else is amiss. A couple things could be going on.
There could be a lot of leakage from the rear of the speaker to the cabin. Is this speaker
mounted so the trunk is its cabinet? I suspect so. Or is there a sealed enclosure for the
speaker in the trunk? And if so, is there a port in the cabinet? I suspect not. Look or
feel for cone movement when it's doing bass stuff. Cone movement, except in a ported box,
goes up 4 times when the frequency is half -- it has to, to keep the same sound pressure. I
suspect it'll be doing squat.
It's most likely that the cone resonance of the speaker is up around 200 Hz. where you're
getting so much output. That's a cheap trick used in a lot of small systems to fool the ear
into believing that the overall response is balanced -- instead of providing response down
into the bass region, they let the speaker provide a lot of output via a peak up around 150
or 200 Hz where it's easy to do, but nothing below that. They do that by designing the
speaker with a resonance somewhere around 150 or 200 Hz. and a high Q (big peak in output).
The response below that settles to a 12 dB/octave downward slope , as freq goes down. Costs
way less. Some small home systems do it, and most boom boxes do it. If that's the case,
the speaker is totally unusable for real bass, most of which is generally in the 50-100 Hz
octave.
I have some 6 1/2" 4 Ohm woofers that have a free-air resonance around 70 Hz that wouldn't
get you to 40 Hz much, but would likely do a goodly bit better than we think your speaker is
doing. Contact me via my web site, and I'll send one to you. You can have it.
w w w .smokeylake . com /excel. My email is at the bottom of the page.
--
Earl
"Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
news:481a81c7$0$4093$4c368faf@roadrunner . com ...
>
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote in message
> news:QI2dnWsKt7JXPYTVnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast . com ...
>> "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
>> news:481912a7$0$7052$4c368faf@roadrunner . com
>>
>>> Would I be able to get low 40-90Hz sounds from a 6.5"
>>> sealed sub in a car?
>>
>> Shouldn't be a problem, with the right 6.5 inch driver. Efficiency won't be wonderful,
>> and you may have to search around for a 6.5 inch woofer with enough Xmax. I think there
>> are some in the Peerless catalog.
>>
>> Doing low bass in a car is far easier than in rooms, because a car is in essence a small
>> room. Even a large SUV does not have a lot of cubes compared to a typical listening room.
>>
>>> I'm looking to use my factory sub
>>> with a different amp with an adjustable crossover to turn
>>> the resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz range to
>>> the 50-90 range.
>>
>> What car?
>
> 2008 Scion TC. Small cabin and very small trunk.
>
>>> I'm looking for decent-quality sound
>>> without being "boomy."
>>
>> Doable. If the problem is boominess, it might be that your car audio system has the
>> basics for low bass, but suffers from a poor factory tuning. The audio system in my Milan
>> sounds like boomy, tizzly crap until you work over the bass and treble controls. Max cut
>> for the bass, lots of cut on the treble.
>
> That's what I'm thinking. I ran a test track outputting a sine wave from 350 Hz to 20Hz
> and it definitely started becoming boomy starting at 250Hz and sharply cut response at
> 160Hz. It was the first time I had run such an audio signal through the system and I was
> surprised to see that the car's engineers had seemed to band-pass that range to get the
> maximum amount of boom for the small wattage factory sub amp. Quite annoying because some
> of the songs that I listen to will be resonate-y at some points and then lose the low end,
> especially on sweepy types of tracks.
>
>>> Has anyone seen this done easily,
>>> or am I looking for too much out of a 6.5" sub? Would I
>>> need to go to 8, 10, 12 inches?
>>
>> Low bass is all about displacing air. The ability to move air goes up with the
>> approximate cube of the diameter. Squared because of simple geometry of areas, and cubed
>> because there is a fair correlation between diameter and Xmax.
>
> Makes sense... probably akin to the volume formula of a cylinder, huh?
>
>>> I'm not really willing
>>> to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only
>>> retrofit an existing setup to the current spot where the
>>> stock speaker is.
>>
>> Try equalization, then try a large Xmax driver, more power and keep on working with
>> equalization.
>
> I ended up getting a cheap amp with a on eBay last night... I'm beginning to think I'm
> about to embark on an expensive endeavor ;)
>
> Would any old equalizer like something here do the trick?
>
> * w w w .pyramidcaraudio . com /itempage.asp?model=714EX
>
> Phil
Phil,
A lot of output broadly around 200 Hz. in a regular passenger car, with the speakers in the
rear deck, is universal, even if the speakers are usable down to the bass range. It's an
acoustic thing. A Scion is shaped quite differently, though. But if you're hearing nothing
below 160 Hz, then something else is amiss. A couple things could be going on.
There could be a lot of leakage from the rear of the speaker to the cabin. Is this speaker
mounted so the trunk is its cabinet? I suspect so. Or is there a sealed enclosure for the
speaker in the trunk? And if so, is there a port in the cabinet? I suspect not. Look or
feel for cone movement when it's doing bass stuff. Cone movement, except in a ported box,
goes up 4 times when the frequency is half -- it has to, to keep the same sound pressure. I
suspect it'll be doing squat.
It's most likely that the cone resonance of the speaker is up around 200 Hz. where you're
getting so much output. That's a cheap trick used in a lot of small systems to fool the ear
into believing that the overall response is balanced -- instead of providing response down
into the bass region, they let the speaker provide a lot of output via a peak up around 150
or 200 Hz where it's easy to do, but nothing below that. They do that by designing the
speaker with a resonance somewhere around 150 or 200 Hz. and a high Q (big peak in output).
The response below that settles to a 12 dB/octave downward slope , as freq goes down. Costs
way less. Some small home systems do it, and most boom boxes do it. If that's the case,
the speaker is totally unusable for real bass, most of which is generally in the 50-100 Hz
octave.
I have some 6 1/2" 4 Ohm woofers that have a free-air resonance around 70 Hz that wouldn't
get you to 40 Hz much, but would likely do a goodly bit better than we think your speaker is
doing. Contact me via my web site, and I'll send one to you. You can have it.
w w w .smokeylake . com /excel. My email is at the bottom of the page.
--
Earl
Re: Low frequencies on a 6.5" sub?
"Earl Kiosterud" <someone@nowhere . com > wrote in message
news:yRLSj.1193$sp.393@trnddc02...
>
> "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
> news:481a81c7$0$4093$4c368faf@roadrunner . com ...
>>
>> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote in message
>> news:QI2dnWsKt7JXPYTVnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast . com ...
>>> "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
>>> news:481912a7$0$7052$4c368faf@roadrunner . com
>>>
>>>> Would I be able to get low 40-90Hz sounds from a 6.5"
>>>> sealed sub in a car?
>>>
>>> Shouldn't be a problem, with the right 6.5 inch driver. Efficiency
>>> won't be wonderful, and you may have to search around for a 6.5 inch
>>> woofer with enough Xmax. I think there are some in the Peerless catalog.
>>>
>>> Doing low bass in a car is far easier than in rooms, because a car is in
>>> essence a small room. Even a large SUV does not have a lot of cubes
>>> compared to a typical listening room.
>>>
>>>> I'm looking to use my factory sub
>>>> with a different amp with an adjustable crossover to turn
>>>> the resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz range to
>>>> the 50-90 range.
>>>
>>> What car?
>>
>> 2008 Scion TC. Small cabin and very small trunk.
>>
>>>> I'm looking for decent-quality sound
>>>> without being "boomy."
>>>
>>> Doable. If the problem is boominess, it might be that your car audio
>>> system has the basics for low bass, but suffers from a poor factory
>>> tuning. The audio system in my Milan sounds like boomy, tizzly crap
>>> until you work over the bass and treble controls. Max cut for the bass,
>>> lots of cut on the treble.
>>
>> That's what I'm thinking. I ran a test track outputting a sine wave from
>> 350 Hz to 20Hz and it definitely started becoming boomy starting at 250Hz
>> and sharply cut response at 160Hz. It was the first time I had run such
>> an audio signal through the system and I was surprised to see that the
>> car's engineers had seemed to band-pass that range to get the maximum
>> amount of boom for the small wattage factory sub amp. Quite annoying
>> because some of the songs that I listen to will be resonate-y at some
>> points and then lose the low end, especially on sweepy types of tracks.
>>
>>>> Has anyone seen this done easily,
>>>> or am I looking for too much out of a 6.5" sub? Would I
>>>> need to go to 8, 10, 12 inches?
>>>
>>> Low bass is all about displacing air. The ability to move air goes up
>>> with the approximate cube of the diameter. Squared because of simple
>>> geometry of areas, and cubed because there is a fair correlation between
>>> diameter and Xmax.
>>
>> Makes sense... probably akin to the volume formula of a cylinder, huh?
>>
>>>> I'm not really willing
>>>> to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only
>>>> retrofit an existing setup to the current spot where the
>>>> stock speaker is.
>>>
>>> Try equalization, then try a large Xmax driver, more power and keep on
>>> working with equalization.
>>
>> I ended up getting a cheap amp with a on eBay last night... I'm
>> beginning to think I'm about to embark on an expensive endeavor ;)
>>
>> Would any old equalizer like something here do the trick?
>>
>> * w w w .pyramidcaraudio . com /itempage.asp?model=714EX
>>
>> Phil
>
>
> Phil,
>
> A lot of output broadly around 200 Hz. in a regular passenger car, with
> the speakers in the rear deck, is universal, even if the speakers are
> usable down to the bass range. It's an acoustic thing. A Scion is shaped
> quite differently, though. But if you're hearing nothing below 160 Hz,
> then something else is amiss. A couple things could be going on.
I wouldn't say that there's nothing below 160Hz, but it's definitely a low
level after 160Hz. I'll try to see if my crappy sound meter can read out a
dB reading at those frequencies.
> There could be a lot of leakage from the rear of the speaker to the cabin.
> Is this speaker mounted so the trunk is its cabinet? I suspect so. Or is
> there a sealed enclosure for the speaker in the trunk? And if so, is
> there a port in the cabinet?
It is a sealed enclosure with a 2"x2" port, but I was so sick of the
boominess when I first got the car that I stuffed foam into the port to seal
it up and the sound became tolerable. Apparently though, I just read that
the frequency in a sealed enclosure is higher so maybe I ended up moving the
response higher inadvertently and didn't notice.
> I suspect not. Look or feel for cone movement when it's doing bass stuff.
> Cone movement, except in a ported box, goes up 4 times when the frequency
> is half -- it has to, to keep the same sound pressure. I suspect it'll be
> doing squat.
Hmm... so cone movement = 1/(frequency^2)? Correspondingly, the voltage has
to go up by that same amount... and I'm guessing power has to also.
> It's most likely that the cone resonance of the speaker is up around 200
> Hz. where you're getting so much output. That's a cheap trick used in a
> lot of small systems to fool the ear into believing that the overall
> response is balanced -- instead of providing response down into the bass
> region, they let the speaker provide a lot of output via a peak up around
> 150 or 200 Hz where it's easy to do, but nothing below that. They do that
> by designing the speaker with a resonance somewhere around 150 or 200 Hz.
> and a high Q (big peak in output). The response below that settles to a 12
> dB/octave downward slope , as freq goes down. Costs way less. Some small
> home systems do it, and most boom boxes do it. If that's the case, the
> speaker is totally unusable for real bass, most of which is generally in
> the 50-100 Hz octave.
That stinks. I was beginning to think that the speaker may have been a big
part of the equation.
> I have some 6 1/2" 4 Ohm woofers that have a free-air resonance around 70
> Hz that wouldn't get you to 40 Hz much, but would likely do a goodly bit
> better than we think your speaker is doing. Contact me via my web site,
> and I'll send one to you. You can have it. w w w .smokeylake . com /excel. My
> email is at the bottom of the page.
Really??? That is just too generous of an offer! Let me take care of the
shipping costs at least. Thanks!
Phil
"Earl Kiosterud" <someone@nowhere . com > wrote in message
news:yRLSj.1193$sp.393@trnddc02...
>
> "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
> news:481a81c7$0$4093$4c368faf@roadrunner . com ...
>>
>> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote in message
>> news:QI2dnWsKt7JXPYTVnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast . com ...
>>> "Phil" <phil_lee@hotmail . com > wrote in message
>>> news:481912a7$0$7052$4c368faf@roadrunner . com
>>>
>>>> Would I be able to get low 40-90Hz sounds from a 6.5"
>>>> sealed sub in a car?
>>>
>>> Shouldn't be a problem, with the right 6.5 inch driver. Efficiency
>>> won't be wonderful, and you may have to search around for a 6.5 inch
>>> woofer with enough Xmax. I think there are some in the Peerless catalog.
>>>
>>> Doing low bass in a car is far easier than in rooms, because a car is in
>>> essence a small room. Even a large SUV does not have a lot of cubes
>>> compared to a typical listening room.
>>>
>>>> I'm looking to use my factory sub
>>>> with a different amp with an adjustable crossover to turn
>>>> the resonating frequency down from the 160-250Hz range to
>>>> the 50-90 range.
>>>
>>> What car?
>>
>> 2008 Scion TC. Small cabin and very small trunk.
>>
>>>> I'm looking for decent-quality sound
>>>> without being "boomy."
>>>
>>> Doable. If the problem is boominess, it might be that your car audio
>>> system has the basics for low bass, but suffers from a poor factory
>>> tuning. The audio system in my Milan sounds like boomy, tizzly crap
>>> until you work over the bass and treble controls. Max cut for the bass,
>>> lots of cut on the treble.
>>
>> That's what I'm thinking. I ran a test track outputting a sine wave from
>> 350 Hz to 20Hz and it definitely started becoming boomy starting at 250Hz
>> and sharply cut response at 160Hz. It was the first time I had run such
>> an audio signal through the system and I was surprised to see that the
>> car's engineers had seemed to band-pass that range to get the maximum
>> amount of boom for the small wattage factory sub amp. Quite annoying
>> because some of the songs that I listen to will be resonate-y at some
>> points and then lose the low end, especially on sweepy types of tracks.
>>
>>>> Has anyone seen this done easily,
>>>> or am I looking for too much out of a 6.5" sub? Would I
>>>> need to go to 8, 10, 12 inches?
>>>
>>> Low bass is all about displacing air. The ability to move air goes up
>>> with the approximate cube of the diameter. Squared because of simple
>>> geometry of areas, and cubed because there is a fair correlation between
>>> diameter and Xmax.
>>
>> Makes sense... probably akin to the volume formula of a cylinder, huh?
>>
>>>> I'm not really willing
>>>> to sacrifice trunk space for this project; I'd only
>>>> retrofit an existing setup to the current spot where the
>>>> stock speaker is.
>>>
>>> Try equalization, then try a large Xmax driver, more power and keep on
>>> working with equalization.
>>
>> I ended up getting a cheap amp with a on eBay last night... I'm
>> beginning to think I'm about to embark on an expensive endeavor ;)
>>
>> Would any old equalizer like something here do the trick?
>>
>> * w w w .pyramidcaraudio . com /itempage.asp?model=714EX
>>
>> Phil
>
>
> Phil,
>
> A lot of output broadly around 200 Hz. in a regular passenger car, with
> the speakers in the rear deck, is universal, even if the speakers are
> usable down to the bass range. It's an acoustic thing. A Scion is shaped
> quite differently, though. But if you're hearing nothing below 160 Hz,
> then something else is amiss. A couple things could be going on.
I wouldn't say that there's nothing below 160Hz, but it's definitely a low
level after 160Hz. I'll try to see if my crappy sound meter can read out a
dB reading at those frequencies.
> There could be a lot of leakage from the rear of the speaker to the cabin.
> Is this speaker mounted so the trunk is its cabinet? I suspect so. Or is
> there a sealed enclosure for the speaker in the trunk? And if so, is
> there a port in the cabinet?
It is a sealed enclosure with a 2"x2" port, but I was so sick of the
boominess when I first got the car that I stuffed foam into the port to seal
it up and the sound became tolerable. Apparently though, I just read that
the frequency in a sealed enclosure is higher so maybe I ended up moving the
response higher inadvertently and didn't notice.
> I suspect not. Look or feel for cone movement when it's doing bass stuff.
> Cone movement, except in a ported box, goes up 4 times when the frequency
> is half -- it has to, to keep the same sound pressure. I suspect it'll be
> doing squat.
Hmm... so cone movement = 1/(frequency^2)? Correspondingly, the voltage has
to go up by that same amount... and I'm guessing power has to also.
> It's most likely that the cone resonance of the speaker is up around 200
> Hz. where you're getting so much output. That's a cheap trick used in a
> lot of small systems to fool the ear into believing that the overall
> response is balanced -- instead of providing response down into the bass
> region, they let the speaker provide a lot of output via a peak up around
> 150 or 200 Hz where it's easy to do, but nothing below that. They do that
> by designing the speaker with a resonance somewhere around 150 or 200 Hz.
> and a high Q (big peak in output). The response below that settles to a 12
> dB/octave downward slope , as freq goes down. Costs way less. Some small
> home systems do it, and most boom boxes do it. If that's the case, the
> speaker is totally unusable for real bass, most of which is generally in
> the 50-100 Hz octave.
That stinks. I was beginning to think that the speaker may have been a big
part of the equation.
> I have some 6 1/2" 4 Ohm woofers that have a free-air resonance around 70
> Hz that wouldn't get you to 40 Hz much, but would likely do a goodly bit
> better than we think your speaker is doing. Contact me via my web site,
> and I'll send one to you. You can have it. w w w .smokeylake . com /excel. My
> email is at the bottom of the page.
Really??? That is just too generous of an offer! Let me take care of the
shipping costs at least. Thanks!
Phil
