PIONEER RECEIVERS: Which One Do I Keep?

Re: PIONEER RECEIVERS: Which One Do I Keep?

JamesGangNC@gmail,com wrote:
: But I did mean to say that they are not any better than a basic,
: under $200 stereo receiver made today.

But wouldn't it sound better than something he could likely get
for free today? :)

Re: PIONEER RECEIVERS: Which One Do I Keep?


<sgordon@changethisparttohardbat,com > wrote in message
news:4823533b$0$34497$742ec2ed@news.sonic,net ...
> JamesGangNC@gmail,com wrote:
> : But I did mean to say that they are not any better than a basic,
> : under $200 stereo receiver made today.
>
> But wouldn't it sound better than something he could likely get
> for free today? :)
>
Hmmm... hadn't considered that one... or... what if he got it free but it
was broken, and he had his friend fix it for a case of beer?

Re: PIONEER RECEIVERS: Which One Do I Keep?

sgordon@changethisparttohardbat,com a écrit :
> JamesGangNC@gmail,com wrote:
> : But I did mean to say that they are not any better than a basic,
> : under $200 stereo receiver made today.
>
> But wouldn't it sound better than something he could likely get
> for free today? :)
>
I cannot agree with JamesGangNC. Those 2 receiver WILL be better than
any basic under $200 stereo receiver made today.
Why? 1- Power Supply. Today receiver use very low current PS compare
with pre-1985 stéreo equipment. Can you explain how can a
receiver like the Pioneer VSX-518-K that give you "120w X 5 channel"
but consume only 280watts while the SX-780 give you
45W X 2 and consume 150Watts.
2- Power Rating. Today receiver are almost always rated at
100w/channel with no indication about from what HZ to what KHz
at at what % of THD. Pre-1985 receivers always tell the TRUE
wattage.
3- THD- Today basic receivers are rated at between 0.2% and
0.9% THD with no indication about at what power while pre-1985
receivers where almost all below 0.07% AT FULL POWER.
4- IM Distortion. On today receivers Specs, you will find no
mention of the IM Distortion.
5- DURABILITY- In 10 years you will still listen to the
SX-750 or SX-790 while your brand new receiver would have died
after 4-5 years of regular use.

I have compare a Pioneer a Pioneer SX-A6-J that sell at 800$ with my
Luxman L-550. A neigbour have bought this "high-end" receiver after he
saw praise in a Hi-Fi magazine. He knew that I have a good system so
after a few days of listening to his Pioneer he askes if he could bring
it at my place to listen with it in my audio room. I connected my speaer
to it. He then listen to it and wanted to compare with the Luxman. I
adjust the loudness of the Luxman to the same level with test tone and a
Sound Level Meter.The result? He sent back his Pioneer and he bought a
Luxman L-430. You know why? The quality of the sound. With the Luxman
you get Depth, Purity, precise Imaging amd Dynamics everithing that was
missing with the Pioneer. Oh by the way he got the Luxman L-430 for less
than 120$ with shipping. So he save around 680% and he end up with a
much better amp. By the way try to find spec about the Pioneer SX-A6-J.
The only thing the mentionned is 60WX2 that's all. Where is the % of THD
? This power is between 20hz and 20Khz or is it at 1000hz? Is it at
0.005% THD like the Luxman or at 0.9% THD? Is the rated power at 8 Ohms
or 4 Ohms? The Luxman L-550 give 50W X2 at 8 Ohms and 110W X2 at 4 Ohms.
The Luxman net weight is 40lbs, while the Pioneer SX-A6-J "Shipping"
weight is 27Lbs. The Luxman consume 310 watts and If I remember
correctly the SX-A6-J only 160 watts. How come? this is 2008 stuff it is
supposed to be "Better". So EADGBE Keep any of the 2 they will outlast
any today's basic crap that retail for 500$ (and less) and it will be
Better WAY Better.

Jocelyn
Proud Son of Leo Major, DCM & Bar
To know why I am proud go there: http :// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo Major

Re: PIONEER RECEIVERS: Which One Do I Keep?

"Major Jocelyn" <majorj@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:1OJUj.12433$HB2.6535@weber.videotron,net ...
> sgordon@changethisparttohardbat,com a écrit :
>> JamesGangNC@gmail,com wrote:
>> : But I did mean to say that they are not any better than a basic,
>> : under $200 stereo receiver made today.
>>
>> But wouldn't it sound better than something he could likely get
>> for free today? :)
>>
> I cannot agree with JamesGangNC. Those 2 receiver WILL be better than any
> basic under $200 stereo receiver made today.
> Why? 1- Power Supply. Today receiver use very low current PS compare with
> pre-1985 stéreo equipment. Can you explain how can a receiver like the
> Pioneer VSX-518-K that give you "120w X 5 channel" but consume only
> 280watts while the SX-780 give you
> 45W X 2 and consume 150Watts.
> 2- Power Rating. Today receiver are almost always rated at
> 100w/channel with no indication about from what HZ to what KHz
> at at what % of THD. Pre-1985 receivers always tell the TRUE
> wattage.
> 3- THD- Today basic receivers are rated at between 0.2% and 0.9% THD
> with no indication about at what power while pre-1985 receivers where
> almost all below 0.07% AT FULL POWER.
> 4- IM Distortion. On today receivers Specs, you will find no mention
> of the IM Distortion.
> 5- DURABILITY- In 10 years you will still listen to the SX-750 or
> SX-790 while your brand new receiver would have died after 4-5 years
> of regular use.
> I have compare a Pioneer a Pioneer SX-A6-J that sell at 800$ with my
> Luxman L-550. A neigbour have bought this "high-end" receiver after he saw
> praise in a Hi-Fi magazine. He knew that I have a good system so after a
> few days of listening to his Pioneer he askes if he could bring it at my
> place to listen with it in my audio room. I connected my speaer to it. He
> then listen to it and wanted to compare with the Luxman. I adjust the
> loudness of the Luxman to the same level with test tone and a Sound Level
> Meter.The result? He sent back his Pioneer and he bought a Luxman L-430.
> You know why? The quality of the sound. With the Luxman you get Depth,
> Purity, precise Imaging amd Dynamics everithing that was missing with the
> Pioneer. Oh by the way he got the Luxman L-430 for less than 120$ with
> shipping. So he save around 680% and he end up with a much better amp. By
> the way try to find spec about the Pioneer SX-A6-J. The only thing the
> mentionned is 60WX2 that's all. Where is the % of THD ? This power is
> between 20hz and 20Khz or is it at 1000hz? Is it at 0.005% THD like the
> Luxman or at 0.9% THD? Is the rated power at 8 Ohms or 4 Ohms? The Luxman
> L-550 give 50W X2 at 8 Ohms and 110W X2 at 4 Ohms.
> The Luxman net weight is 40lbs, while the Pioneer SX-A6-J "Shipping"
> weight is 27Lbs. The Luxman consume 310 watts and If I remember correctly
> the SX-A6-J only 160 watts. How come? this is 2008 stuff it is supposed to
> be "Better". So EADGBE Keep any of the 2 they will outlast any today's
> basic crap that retail for 500$ (and less) and it will be Better WAY
> Better.
>
> Jocelyn
> Proud Son of Leo Major, DCM & Bar
> To know why I am proud go there: http :// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Major

You need to learn more about the stk based amps. And I was not comparing it
to low end surround sound systems. Many of which use switching power
supplies and class d amps.

Re: PIONEER RECEIVERS: Which One Do I Keep?

James a écrit :
> "Major Jocelyn" <majorj@videotron.ca> wrote in message
> news:1OJUj.12433$HB2.6535@weber.videotron,net ...
>> sgordon@changethisparttohardbat,com a écrit :
>>> JamesGangNC@gmail,com wrote:
>>> : But I did mean to say that they are not any better than a basic,
>>> : under $200 stereo receiver made today.
>>>
>>> But wouldn't it sound better than something he could likely get
>>> for free today? :)
>>>
>> I cannot agree with JamesGangNC. Those 2 receiver WILL be better than any
>> basic under $200 stereo receiver made today.
>> Why? 1- Power Supply. Today receiver use very low current PS compare with
>> pre-1985 stéreo equipment. Can you explain how can a receiver like the
>> Pioneer VSX-518-K that give you "120w X 5 channel" but consume only
>> 280watts while the SX-780 give you
>> 45W X 2 and consume 150Watts.
>> 2- Power Rating. Today receiver are almost always rated at
>> 100w/channel with no indication about from what HZ to what KHz
>> at at what % of THD. Pre-1985 receivers always tell the TRUE
>> wattage.
>> 3- THD- Today basic receivers are rated at between 0.2% and 0.9% THD
>> with no indication about at what power while pre-1985 receivers where
>> almost all below 0.07% AT FULL POWER.
>> 4- IM Distortion. On today receivers Specs, you will find no mention
>> of the IM Distortion.
>> 5- DURABILITY- In 10 years you will still listen to the SX-750 or
>> SX-790 while your brand new receiver would have died after 4-5 years
>> of regular use.
>> I have compare a Pioneer a Pioneer SX-A6-J that sell at 800$ with my
>> Luxman L-550. A neigbour have bought this "high-end" receiver after he saw
>> praise in a Hi-Fi magazine. He knew that I have a good system so after a
>> few days of listening to his Pioneer he askes if he could bring it at my
>> place to listen with it in my audio room. I connected my speaer to it. He
>> then listen to it and wanted to compare with the Luxman. I adjust the
>> loudness of the Luxman to the same level with test tone and a Sound Level
>> Meter.The result? He sent back his Pioneer and he bought a Luxman L-430.
>> You know why? The quality of the sound. With the Luxman you get Depth,
>> Purity, precise Imaging amd Dynamics everithing that was missing with the
>> Pioneer. Oh by the way he got the Luxman L-430 for less than 120$ with
>> shipping. So he save around 680% and he end up with a much better amp. By
>> the way try to find spec about the Pioneer SX-A6-J. The only thing the
>> mentionned is 60WX2 that's all. Where is the % of THD ? This power is
>> between 20hz and 20Khz or is it at 1000hz? Is it at 0.005% THD like the
>> Luxman or at 0.9% THD? Is the rated power at 8 Ohms or 4 Ohms? The Luxman
>> L-550 give 50W X2 at 8 Ohms and 110W X2 at 4 Ohms.
>> The Luxman net weight is 40lbs, while the Pioneer SX-A6-J "Shipping"
>> weight is 27Lbs. The Luxman consume 310 watts and If I remember correctly
>> the SX-A6-J only 160 watts. How come? this is 2008 stuff it is supposed to
>> be "Better". So EADGBE Keep any of the 2 they will outlast any today's
>> basic crap that retail for 500$ (and less) and it will be Better WAY
>> Better.
>>
>> Jocelyn
>> Proud Son of Leo Major, DCM & Bar
>> To know why I am proud go there: http :// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo Major
>
> You need to learn more about the stk based amps. And I was not comparing it
> to low end surround sound systems. Many of which use switching power
> supplies and class d amps.
>
>
Yes but for the price of one of those low end surround receiver you can
get a great pre-1985 amp that will have a real power supply with real
spec. Would you say that the Pioneer SX-A6-J is a "low" end at a retail
of 800$? At that price I can get an incredible piece of Vintage
Amp/Preamp/(Cd Player or Turntable).

Jocelyn
Proud Son of Leo Major, DCM & Bar
To know why I am proud go there: http :// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo Major

Re: PIONEER RECEIVERS: Which One Do I Keep?

"Major Jocelyn" <majorj@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:DvNUj.1523$zm2.8255@wagner.videotron,net ...
> James a écrit :
>> "Major Jocelyn" <majorj@videotron.ca> wrote in message
>> news:1OJUj.12433$HB2.6535@weber.videotron,net ...
>>> sgordon@changethisparttohardbat,com a écrit :
>>
>> You need to learn more about the stk based amps. And I was not comparing
>> it to low end surround sound systems. Many of which use switching power
>> supplies and class d amps.
>>
>>
> Yes but for the price of one of those low end surround receiver you can
> get a great pre-1985 amp that will have a real power supply with real
> spec. Would you say that the Pioneer SX-A6-J is a "low" end at a retail of
> 800$? At that price I can get an incredible piece of Vintage
> Amp/Preamp/(Cd Player or Turntable).
>
> Jocelyn
> Proud Son of Leo Major, DCM & Bar
> To know why I am proud go there: http :// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Major

You're right, you can get some of the high end vintage gear for $800. But
that pioneer sx-a6-j is available all day new for under $500. It is a class
ab amp and the specifications are in the users manual. Would I buy one?
Not likely. It seems a bit over priced. But it is xm radio capable and has
an ir remote. Two things that some people might consider a requirement.
And it is going to be covered by a warranty. Buying older gear is not
without drawbacks. Often the power supply caps need replacing. I'd go so
far as to suggest that if you took 10 random vintage items off ebay you
would find that none of them were performing to the original specifications
in a bench test. A lot of people want to take it out of the box and not
worry about those sorts of things. And some people want surround sound.

As to the power supplies, switching power supplies are not technically
inferior to the old style power supplies. Both can be built to deliver the
appropriate level of power as needed by the equipment. Any piece of modern
equipment with a switching power supply is going to be a whole lot lighter
that the traditional power supply because it does not need that big
transformer. Your computer has one. It's probably rated at 500 watts. It
really can deliver that much power even though it weighs next to nothing.
To get 500 watts via a a 60hz transformer would take a huge transformer that
weighed a ton.

None of which is my original point. What I said was those pioneers and
other old gear using the stk amps were not particularly memorable. The
specs you want to quote have nothing to do with pioneer. Pioneer didn't
make the amps, they took them off the shelf and soldered them in. And those
units are worth about $100 apiece at best on flea-bay. And that is mostly
because they are pioneer, not because their specifications are particularly
better than comparable gear for the same era.

Re: PIONEER RECEIVERS: Which One Do I Keep?

James a écrit :
> "Major Jocelyn" <majorj@videotron.ca> wrote in message
> news:DvNUj.1523$zm2.8255@wagner.videotron,net ...
>> James a écrit :
>>> "Major Jocelyn" <majorj@videotron.ca> wrote in message
>>> news:1OJUj.12433$HB2.6535@weber.videotron,net ...
>>>> sgordon@changethisparttohardbat,com a écrit :
>>> You need to learn more about the stk based amps. And I was not comparing
>>> it to low end surround sound systems. Many of which use switching power
>>> supplies and class d amps.
>>>
>>>
>> Yes but for the price of one of those low end surround receiver you can
>> get a great pre-1985 amp that will have a real power supply with real
>> spec. Would you say that the Pioneer SX-A6-J is a "low" end at a retail of
>> 800$? At that price I can get an incredible piece of Vintage
>> Amp/Preamp/(Cd Player or Turntable).
>>
>> Jocelyn
>> Proud Son of Leo Major, DCM & Bar
>> To know why I am proud go there: http :// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo Major
>
> You're right, you can get some of the high end vintage gear for $800. But
> that pioneer sx-a6-j is available all day new for under $500. It is a class
> ab amp and the specifications are in the users manual. Would I buy one?
> Not likely. It seems a bit over priced. But it is xm radio capable and has
> an ir remote. Two things that some people might consider a requirement.
> And it is going to be covered by a warranty. Buying older gear is not
> without drawbacks. Often the power supply caps need replacing. I'd go so
> far as to suggest that if you took 10 random vintage items off ebay you
> would find that none of them were performing to the original specifications
> in a bench test. A lot of people want to take it out of the box and not
> worry about those sorts of things. And some people want surround sound.
>
> As to the power supplies, switching power supplies are not technically
> inferior to the old style power supplies. Both can be built to deliver the
> appropriate level of power as needed by the equipment. Any piece of modern
> equipment with a switching power supply is going to be a whole lot lighter
> that the traditional power supply because it does not need that big
> transformer. Your computer has one. It's probably rated at 500 watts. It
> really can deliver that much power even though it weighs next to nothing.
> To get 500 watts via a a 60hz transformer would take a huge transformer that
> weighed a ton.
>
> None of which is my original point. What I said was those pioneers and
> other old gear using the stk amps were not particularly memorable. The
> specs you want to quote have nothing to do with pioneer. Pioneer didn't
> make the amps, they took them off the shelf and soldered them in. And those
> units are worth about $100 apiece at best on flea-bay. And that is mostly
> because they are pioneer, not because their specifications are particularly
> better than comparable gear for the same era.
>
>
You're also right about the Pioneer SX-A6-J, my neighbour pay full price
for this receiver and I found out that now you could even get it for
400$. As for the Power Supply cap need replacing I faced this my Dynaco
St-400 and my Quad 405. It was an easy job replacing the caps on each
amp. I know that for lot of people this is to much trouble. But for me
and several other at the french Vintage Forum
http :// forum.hardware,fr /hfr/VideoSon/HiFi-HomeCinema/techniques-abandonnees-appareils-sujet 67751 1.htm
I also know that some (mainly the High Power gears) Pioneer are
overpriced on Ebay and Audiogone except that you can find other brands
that are simply excellent for a very reasonable price. Also several
piece of vintage equipment that are being sold have been serviced by
technician prior to the sale. Also one reason to buy vintage is
Reliability. Lot of today's stuff come with a 90 days warranty. Why? As
I wrote in a post before, I work as a Senior Salesman in a Hi-Fi Chain
and lot of the receivers stop working properly after less that 2 years
of use. I have seen Pioneer, Sony, JVC receivers that where dead after 6
month. Concerning the Power Supply could you explain why the High End
Amps and Reveivers sold today are still Using High Current Power Supply
instead of switching one? The answer is simple Power reserve.Try
listening to Mussorsky Night on Bald Montain CD with one of today
high-end Reveiver then listen to it again with a receiver that use a
switching PS. Just do the test: Go to any serious HI-FI store with this
CD and ask the salesman if you can listen to it with say an Onkyo,
Denon, Harman/Kardon,Rotel or even a High-End Pioneer and next try it
with a regular Pioneer, JVC, or Sony and you will understand that these
basic receivers will never reproduce this CD without puting tremendous
amount of distortion because to go into clipping or even going in
protect mode. Several of these basic receiver that have a switching PS
are rated at say 100w per channel but with only ONE channle driven. Take
for example the JVC RX-5060X 5 channel surround receiver. It is rated at
100w per channel at 10% (Yes 10%) THD. But the real RMS power is
20w/channel all channel driven and still at 10% distortion. If we reduce
that THD to say 1% the RMS power drop to around 10W/Channel. The Sony
STR-DG520 does a bit better job giving you 20w/channel at 1% THD. The
Pioneer VSX-518-K give us a huge 24W/channel at 1% THD. Sorry but for
the price of one of these basic Receivers I will instead go to a vintage
one that will give me REAL RMS Power like 80W/Channel Both channel
driven at 0.05% THD.

Jocelyn
Proud Son of Leo Major, DCM & Bar
To know why I am proud go there: http :// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo Major