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Nostradamus effect of 1m heart recovery rate
Nostradamus effect of 1m heart recovery rate
This was posted by Patrick Turner, known to Australian RBTers, to
rec.audio.tubes. I'm forwarding it as of general and important
interest to cyclists. -- Andre Jute
> Because I am giving this little OT talk about cycling,
> I'd like to include a report important for anyone to read regarding
> their likelyhood of heart problems.
>
> Norman Swan is a guy running a Health programme on ABC Radio National.
> he interviews Dr Micheal Lauer from the US........
>
>
>
> Norman Swan: Welcome to the program.
>
> Today, Vitamin D from one of the world's leading researchers in the
> field. In fact the person who found the active form of the vitamin, who
> with others has gone on to discover that a vitamin people thought was
> only important for bones might have a role in other parts of the body
> too, like the prostate or breast.
>
> And does sunblock affect your vitamin D status? You'll find out that
> later, too.
>
> Now I don't know about you but I'm always seeing joggers stopping to
> take their pulses and I'm never sure why; they probably have some
> esoteric knowledge about their fitness level which escapes me. But
> research published last week in the United States may one day give them
> a very good reason.
>
> In a six-year follow-up study, researchers showed that in a group of men
> and women aged around 57, the heart rate one minute after peak exercise
> strongly predicted their likelihood of dying in the following few years.
>
> It's a dramatic finding which could have an impact on the way people
> with serious coronary risk are screened or indeed whether you need to go
> on to have fancier tests like nuclear heart scans of angiography where
> your coronary blood vessels are catheterised and X-rayed.
>
> And if the findings are repeated outside the laboratory in real life,
> for example in pulse-taking joggers, it could have wide public health
> ramifications.
>
> The person who led the research team was Dr Michael Lauer, a
> cardiologist at the prestigious Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio.
>
> Michael Lauer: We looked at something very simple; we looked at the
> heart rate at the end of exercise, in people undergoing exercise
> testing, and then we looked at their heart rate one minute after they
> finished exercise. We took the difference between the heart rate at peak
> exercise and the heart rate one minute later, and we measured the heart
> rate recovery. We followed 2,400 patients for about six years, during
> which time 213 of them died. And what we found was that this change in
> heart rate during the first minute after exercise was an extremely
> powerful predictor of mortality, in fact it was the most powerful
> predictor of mortality that we've looked at; it was a more powerful
> predictor of mortality than nuclear tests, which look at blood flow
> abnormality to the heart, and it was a much more powerful predictor of
> mortality than the electrocardiogram we physically looked at during
> exercise.
>
> Norman Swan: Or during the stress test. So give me an idea of peak
> exercise in the stress test; how far do you take people in the stress
> test to get to this peak level?
>
> Michael Lauer: Well typically we will exercise people for about 8-12
> minutes, that's how long it usually takes to get somebody going very
> quickly and getting them to the point of maximal exhaustion. Let's say
> for a typical 50-year-old man, you'd expect the heart rate to rise from
> about 70 at rest to about 170 at peak exercise. And then what we'd like
> to see is the heart rate fall by at least 20 beats per minute during
> that first minute after exercise. That would take us down to 150. People
> with an abnormal heart rate recovery, the heart rate only falls by a
> little bit during that first minute after exercise. They were the ones
> who were at really high risk for subsequent death.
>
> Norman Swan: I think in the paper you defined the heart beat reduction
> as 12 beats per minute or less.
>
> Michael Lauer: Twelve beats a minute, that's correct.
>
> Norman Swan: As a reduction. Can you apply this knowledge, or is there
> any other research which suggests if you go for your average jog,
> measure your pulse at the end of it and your pulse a minute later,
> that's got any measure worth considering here?
>
> Michael Lauer: That's a very good question, because an average jog
> typically is not maximal exercise. We are looking at people who
> underwent some maximal exercise, and we're going to look at that as
> well. My guess is that it will work, but that's something that will
> require some further research.
>
> Norman Swan: What is it about the heart, what is it about the
> cardiovascular system that you're measuring here? Is it some sort of
> holistic measure that you can't pin it down to one thing, in other words
> you're getting a kind of global snapshot of the health of the
> cardiovascular system, or is it something specific?
>
> Michael Lauer: What we're actually measuring is something called the
> autonomic nervous system, that part of the nervous system that regulates
> heart rate and blood pressure and breathing. It's been known for a long
> time that abnormalities of the autonomic nervous system are correlated
> with death risk, but the problem is that the way in which these
> abnormalities are measured are very difficult. They require
> sophisticated equipment and they require the kind of tests which simply
> have not entered the realm of normal clinical practice. What we find is
> that these very, very simple measures that are obtained as part of
> regular routine exercise testing deflect what happens to the autonomic
> nervous system and provides us with just as powerful predictors of risk
> of death.
>
> Norman Swan: So what you're saying is you're not finding necessarily
> blocked coronary arteries; in other words you couldn't replace the
> stress test or some of these nuclear scans with this simple test,
> because it's not picking up a blocked artery which then you can go on
> and do an angioplasty on.
>
> Michael Lauer: Well we may very well; we are looking at something
> different than blocked coronary arteries. But what we can say is this:
> people have a normal heart rate recovery are at extremely low risk, and
> because they are at extremely low risk, it makes a lot more sense to
> manage them conservatively, and not project them to essentially risky
> procedures. If you know that somebody has a death risk of less than 1%
> per year then it really doesn't make very much sense to refer them for a
> procedure which carries with it a 1%-2% chance of death within 30 days.
>
> Norman Swan: So in other words, it's almost a negative message that you
> get from it from the positive result.
>
> Michael Lauer: Well yes. I would say right now the immediate practical
> use of this is that if a patient has a normal heart rate recovery, that
> identifies them as a low risk, therefore we don't really need to send
> them for further testing unless they're having for example refractory
> symptoms. But if their symptoms are easily controlled by medicines, or
> they're not having any symptoms at all, you know they're at very low
> risk and so we know that we can comfortably manage them conservatively
> without going on to any further testing.
>
> Norman Swan: Now this paper is interesting in that you don't actually
> commit yourselves to saying that these people died of heart attacks or
> sudden coronary death. It's overall death. Now commonsense would say
> that they karked it from their hearts, but you're not sure; why is that?
>
> Michael Lauer: We're not sure why they died, that's something which is
> going to have to require further research. What the exact mechanism is
> between this and death is not known. The current most popular theory is
> that if there's problems with the autonomic nervous system, people are
> more vulnerable to developing fatal heart arrhythmias, like sudden
> cardiac death and that's the most likely cause of death but that's going
> to require more work.
>
> Norman Swan: So just in summary: the next challenge with this is to see
> whether without bringing somebody into the laboratory, there is a way of
> predicting, with just regular exercise, whether or not your recovery is
> adequate?
>
> Michael Lauer: Right. And other things that we need to look at is how
> well this is working in other populations. We also need to look at how
> best to incorporate this with the rest of the exercise test result. And
> then of course one big question is what do you do about people who have
> an abnormal heart rate recovery beyond things that we already know
> about, like smoking cessation, cholesterol reduction and blood pressure
> reduction. Are there other things that we could specifically do to treat
> this abnormality, and that's something which will have to await further
> work.
>
> Norman Swan: Let's say for a moment you had somebody who has an abnormal
> heart rate recovery one minute after the stress test, but the stress
> test doesn't show any ischaemic changes, there's no changes due to
> shortage of blood supply, therefore nothing that otherwise would make
> you suggest there's a blocked coronary artery. If it was you, would you
> ask the doctor to send you off for an angiogram to see whether or not
> you've got a blocked coronary artery?
>
> Michael Lauer: I would be very worried. That would be an occasion I
> would be worried about. What I would do next is an imaging test; I would
> do like a nuclear test, or an echocardiogram to see if there's evidence
> of a blockage there, then I would go from there. I would only get a
> coronary angiogram if the imaging test showed that there is a problem.
>
> Norman Swan: Michael Lauer, thanks for joining us on the Health Report.
>
> Michael Lauer: Great, thank you so much for your interest in our work.
>
> Norman Swan: Dr Michael Lauer is a cardiologist at the Cleveland Clinic
> and that study was published in the current edition of The New England
> Journal of Medicine.
>
> Reference:
>
> Cole et al. Heart-rate recovery immediately after exercise as a
> predictor of mortality. New England Journal of Medicine
> 1999;341:1351-1357
> Guests:
>
> Dr. Michael Lauer
> Department of Cardiology,
> Cleveland Clinic Foundation,
> Desk F25,
> 9500 Euclid Ave.,
> Cleveland, Ohio 44195,
> U.S.A.
>
> email: lauerm@ccf.org.
>
> I hope this doesn't put too many people off getting from A to B with
> only
> 200 watts or less to propel them.
>
> The fact so many folks seem to need 22,000 watts at least is a
> terrible folly of the human species.
>
>Patrick Turner
This was posted by Patrick Turner, known to Australian RBTers, to
rec.audio.tubes. I'm forwarding it as of general and important
interest to cyclists. -- Andre Jute
> Because I am giving this little OT talk about cycling,
> I'd like to include a report important for anyone to read regarding
> their likelyhood of heart problems.
>
> Norman Swan is a guy running a Health programme on ABC Radio National.
> he interviews Dr Micheal Lauer from the US........
>
>
>
> Norman Swan: Welcome to the program.
>
> Today, Vitamin D from one of the world's leading researchers in the
> field. In fact the person who found the active form of the vitamin, who
> with others has gone on to discover that a vitamin people thought was
> only important for bones might have a role in other parts of the body
> too, like the prostate or breast.
>
> And does sunblock affect your vitamin D status? You'll find out that
> later, too.
>
> Now I don't know about you but I'm always seeing joggers stopping to
> take their pulses and I'm never sure why; they probably have some
> esoteric knowledge about their fitness level which escapes me. But
> research published last week in the United States may one day give them
> a very good reason.
>
> In a six-year follow-up study, researchers showed that in a group of men
> and women aged around 57, the heart rate one minute after peak exercise
> strongly predicted their likelihood of dying in the following few years.
>
> It's a dramatic finding which could have an impact on the way people
> with serious coronary risk are screened or indeed whether you need to go
> on to have fancier tests like nuclear heart scans of angiography where
> your coronary blood vessels are catheterised and X-rayed.
>
> And if the findings are repeated outside the laboratory in real life,
> for example in pulse-taking joggers, it could have wide public health
> ramifications.
>
> The person who led the research team was Dr Michael Lauer, a
> cardiologist at the prestigious Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio.
>
> Michael Lauer: We looked at something very simple; we looked at the
> heart rate at the end of exercise, in people undergoing exercise
> testing, and then we looked at their heart rate one minute after they
> finished exercise. We took the difference between the heart rate at peak
> exercise and the heart rate one minute later, and we measured the heart
> rate recovery. We followed 2,400 patients for about six years, during
> which time 213 of them died. And what we found was that this change in
> heart rate during the first minute after exercise was an extremely
> powerful predictor of mortality, in fact it was the most powerful
> predictor of mortality that we've looked at; it was a more powerful
> predictor of mortality than nuclear tests, which look at blood flow
> abnormality to the heart, and it was a much more powerful predictor of
> mortality than the electrocardiogram we physically looked at during
> exercise.
>
> Norman Swan: Or during the stress test. So give me an idea of peak
> exercise in the stress test; how far do you take people in the stress
> test to get to this peak level?
>
> Michael Lauer: Well typically we will exercise people for about 8-12
> minutes, that's how long it usually takes to get somebody going very
> quickly and getting them to the point of maximal exhaustion. Let's say
> for a typical 50-year-old man, you'd expect the heart rate to rise from
> about 70 at rest to about 170 at peak exercise. And then what we'd like
> to see is the heart rate fall by at least 20 beats per minute during
> that first minute after exercise. That would take us down to 150. People
> with an abnormal heart rate recovery, the heart rate only falls by a
> little bit during that first minute after exercise. They were the ones
> who were at really high risk for subsequent death.
>
> Norman Swan: I think in the paper you defined the heart beat reduction
> as 12 beats per minute or less.
>
> Michael Lauer: Twelve beats a minute, that's correct.
>
> Norman Swan: As a reduction. Can you apply this knowledge, or is there
> any other research which suggests if you go for your average jog,
> measure your pulse at the end of it and your pulse a minute later,
> that's got any measure worth considering here?
>
> Michael Lauer: That's a very good question, because an average jog
> typically is not maximal exercise. We are looking at people who
> underwent some maximal exercise, and we're going to look at that as
> well. My guess is that it will work, but that's something that will
> require some further research.
>
> Norman Swan: What is it about the heart, what is it about the
> cardiovascular system that you're measuring here? Is it some sort of
> holistic measure that you can't pin it down to one thing, in other words
> you're getting a kind of global snapshot of the health of the
> cardiovascular system, or is it something specific?
>
> Michael Lauer: What we're actually measuring is something called the
> autonomic nervous system, that part of the nervous system that regulates
> heart rate and blood pressure and breathing. It's been known for a long
> time that abnormalities of the autonomic nervous system are correlated
> with death risk, but the problem is that the way in which these
> abnormalities are measured are very difficult. They require
> sophisticated equipment and they require the kind of tests which simply
> have not entered the realm of normal clinical practice. What we find is
> that these very, very simple measures that are obtained as part of
> regular routine exercise testing deflect what happens to the autonomic
> nervous system and provides us with just as powerful predictors of risk
> of death.
>
> Norman Swan: So what you're saying is you're not finding necessarily
> blocked coronary arteries; in other words you couldn't replace the
> stress test or some of these nuclear scans with this simple test,
> because it's not picking up a blocked artery which then you can go on
> and do an angioplasty on.
>
> Michael Lauer: Well we may very well; we are looking at something
> different than blocked coronary arteries. But what we can say is this:
> people have a normal heart rate recovery are at extremely low risk, and
> because they are at extremely low risk, it makes a lot more sense to
> manage them conservatively, and not project them to essentially risky
> procedures. If you know that somebody has a death risk of less than 1%
> per year then it really doesn't make very much sense to refer them for a
> procedure which carries with it a 1%-2% chance of death within 30 days.
>
> Norman Swan: So in other words, it's almost a negative message that you
> get from it from the positive result.
>
> Michael Lauer: Well yes. I would say right now the immediate practical
> use of this is that if a patient has a normal heart rate recovery, that
> identifies them as a low risk, therefore we don't really need to send
> them for further testing unless they're having for example refractory
> symptoms. But if their symptoms are easily controlled by medicines, or
> they're not having any symptoms at all, you know they're at very low
> risk and so we know that we can comfortably manage them conservatively
> without going on to any further testing.
>
> Norman Swan: Now this paper is interesting in that you don't actually
> commit yourselves to saying that these people died of heart attacks or
> sudden coronary death. It's overall death. Now commonsense would say
> that they karked it from their hearts, but you're not sure; why is that?
>
> Michael Lauer: We're not sure why they died, that's something which is
> going to have to require further research. What the exact mechanism is
> between this and death is not known. The current most popular theory is
> that if there's problems with the autonomic nervous system, people are
> more vulnerable to developing fatal heart arrhythmias, like sudden
> cardiac death and that's the most likely cause of death but that's going
> to require more work.
>
> Norman Swan: So just in summary: the next challenge with this is to see
> whether without bringing somebody into the laboratory, there is a way of
> predicting, with just regular exercise, whether or not your recovery is
> adequate?
>
> Michael Lauer: Right. And other things that we need to look at is how
> well this is working in other populations. We also need to look at how
> best to incorporate this with the rest of the exercise test result. And
> then of course one big question is what do you do about people who have
> an abnormal heart rate recovery beyond things that we already know
> about, like smoking cessation, cholesterol reduction and blood pressure
> reduction. Are there other things that we could specifically do to treat
> this abnormality, and that's something which will have to await further
> work.
>
> Norman Swan: Let's say for a moment you had somebody who has an abnormal
> heart rate recovery one minute after the stress test, but the stress
> test doesn't show any ischaemic changes, there's no changes due to
> shortage of blood supply, therefore nothing that otherwise would make
> you suggest there's a blocked coronary artery. If it was you, would you
> ask the doctor to send you off for an angiogram to see whether or not
> you've got a blocked coronary artery?
>
> Michael Lauer: I would be very worried. That would be an occasion I
> would be worried about. What I would do next is an imaging test; I would
> do like a nuclear test, or an echocardiogram to see if there's evidence
> of a blockage there, then I would go from there. I would only get a
> coronary angiogram if the imaging test showed that there is a problem.
>
> Norman Swan: Michael Lauer, thanks for joining us on the Health Report.
>
> Michael Lauer: Great, thank you so much for your interest in our work.
>
> Norman Swan: Dr Michael Lauer is a cardiologist at the Cleveland Clinic
> and that study was published in the current edition of The New England
> Journal of Medicine.
>
> Reference:
>
> Cole et al. Heart-rate recovery immediately after exercise as a
> predictor of mortality. New England Journal of Medicine
> 1999;341:1351-1357
> Guests:
>
> Dr. Michael Lauer
> Department of Cardiology,
> Cleveland Clinic Foundation,
> Desk F25,
> 9500 Euclid Ave.,
> Cleveland, Ohio 44195,
> U.S.A.
>
> email: lauerm@ccf.org.
>
> I hope this doesn't put too many people off getting from A to B with
> only
> 200 watts or less to propel them.
>
> The fact so many folks seem to need 22,000 watts at least is a
> terrible folly of the human species.
>
>Patrick Turner
Re: Nostradamus effect of 1m heart recovery rate
On Mar 28, 1:26=EF=BF=BDpm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo . com > wrote:
> Anything for attention.
I am sure if Patrick wanted it here, he would have put it here. He
needs no apologists. He is more than adequate as his own spokesman.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
On Mar 28, 1:26=EF=BF=BDpm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo . com > wrote:
> Anything for attention.
I am sure if Patrick wanted it here, he would have put it here. He
needs no apologists. He is more than adequate as his own spokesman.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
Re: Nostradamus effect of 1m heart recovery rate
Peter Wieck wrote:
>
> On Mar 28, 1:26�pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo . com > wrote:
>
> > Anything for attention.
>
> I am sure if Patrick wanted it here, he would have put it here. He
> needs no apologists. He is more than adequate as his own spokesman.
Andre can put things wherever he likes. Its a free internet world and
once I put
a copy from a website carrying the heart rate report at r.a.t, anyone is
free to transfer it elsewhere.
I may have done the wrong thing regarding copyright to post something
from a public radio broadcast
but I don't care about that, its more important that the people I know
should share something
which could prolong their lives.
I consider the report to be a very very
useful peice of information regarding health at r.a.t probably because
so many
of its readers and contributors are now at an age where they would be
fools if they
didn't look at their health condition closely. Heart and aterial
diseases are a very major killer
and its prudent to know if you could be prone to dying in the next few
years.
Of course we cannot be certain when the curtain comes down on our part
in life's drama
but the recovery after exercise is a powerful indicator.
I think I am one of the real lucky ones because I can ride a bicycle up
a long mountain climb
and at maybe 140BPM, lungs bursting and legs aching, and after stopping
at the top
my heart rate is back to 65 quickly, within a few minutes. If it only
came down 12BPM
after 1 minute, then maybe another 12BPM after 2 minutes, I'd be off to
see my GP asap.
I did 85km this morning, and rode past about 25 other people, mostly
much younger men and a few
very slow young women going in my direction.
Nobody passed me.
I used to race in my late 30s to mid 40s, and that really did stress me
right fuckin out,
but i'd ride home after the race and after a relax the HR would be 60.
I've had a little relax after this morning, and HR is now 68.
If it was say 80, I'be be very worried. It should go to about 52
tommorrow night.
There are a lot of people in my age group who will have serious heart
problems
and the sooner they know what the problems are and do something about
it, the better.
This will never be nice news to those who take a firm egyption position,
ie, standing
in De Nile.
Many ppl I know have put off doing anything much at all for 40 years,
and a decent bike ride would kill them stone dead.
OK, so they *should* start by doing 1k, then 2k, then 4k then 8k and so
on
and as they build up all their fat will fall off and their weak body
systems and muscle
and bone structure will slowly improve.
I like to swim a consistent constant average 240metres per day while my
pool is warm enough to permit it
between end of September and beginning of May. It only takes a few
minutes to swim
240metres, but its value is enormous for health, even if I didn't cycle.
But I can't help those who won't help themselves, ie, the majority of
other 60 year olds.
Take it or leave it.
Its a beautiful fine cool day here in Canberra, perfect for cycling
around.
I enjoy feeling 30.
Forget one's depressions and go DO something!
Cordially to all,
Patrick Turner.
>
> Peter Wieck
> Melrose Park, PA
Peter Wieck wrote:
>
> On Mar 28, 1:26�pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo . com > wrote:
>
> > Anything for attention.
>
> I am sure if Patrick wanted it here, he would have put it here. He
> needs no apologists. He is more than adequate as his own spokesman.
Andre can put things wherever he likes. Its a free internet world and
once I put
a copy from a website carrying the heart rate report at r.a.t, anyone is
free to transfer it elsewhere.
I may have done the wrong thing regarding copyright to post something
from a public radio broadcast
but I don't care about that, its more important that the people I know
should share something
which could prolong their lives.
I consider the report to be a very very
useful peice of information regarding health at r.a.t probably because
so many
of its readers and contributors are now at an age where they would be
fools if they
didn't look at their health condition closely. Heart and aterial
diseases are a very major killer
and its prudent to know if you could be prone to dying in the next few
years.
Of course we cannot be certain when the curtain comes down on our part
in life's drama
but the recovery after exercise is a powerful indicator.
I think I am one of the real lucky ones because I can ride a bicycle up
a long mountain climb
and at maybe 140BPM, lungs bursting and legs aching, and after stopping
at the top
my heart rate is back to 65 quickly, within a few minutes. If it only
came down 12BPM
after 1 minute, then maybe another 12BPM after 2 minutes, I'd be off to
see my GP asap.
I did 85km this morning, and rode past about 25 other people, mostly
much younger men and a few
very slow young women going in my direction.
Nobody passed me.
I used to race in my late 30s to mid 40s, and that really did stress me
right fuckin out,
but i'd ride home after the race and after a relax the HR would be 60.
I've had a little relax after this morning, and HR is now 68.
If it was say 80, I'be be very worried. It should go to about 52
tommorrow night.
There are a lot of people in my age group who will have serious heart
problems
and the sooner they know what the problems are and do something about
it, the better.
This will never be nice news to those who take a firm egyption position,
ie, standing
in De Nile.
Many ppl I know have put off doing anything much at all for 40 years,
and a decent bike ride would kill them stone dead.
OK, so they *should* start by doing 1k, then 2k, then 4k then 8k and so
on
and as they build up all their fat will fall off and their weak body
systems and muscle
and bone structure will slowly improve.
I like to swim a consistent constant average 240metres per day while my
pool is warm enough to permit it
between end of September and beginning of May. It only takes a few
minutes to swim
240metres, but its value is enormous for health, even if I didn't cycle.
But I can't help those who won't help themselves, ie, the majority of
other 60 year olds.
Take it or leave it.
Its a beautiful fine cool day here in Canberra, perfect for cycling
around.
I enjoy feeling 30.
Forget one's depressions and go DO something!
Cordially to all,
Patrick Turner.
>
> Peter Wieck
> Melrose Park, PA
Re: Nostradamus effect of 1m heart recovery rate
On Mar 30, 3:32=C2=A0am, Patrick Turner <i...@turneraudio . com .au> wrote:
> Peter Wieck wrote:
I have Worthless Wiecky in my killfile for a good reason. He has never
in all the years he has been stalking me said anything in the least
interesting. Even his malice is dull.
>
> > On Mar 28, 1:26=EF=BF=BDpm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo . com > wrote:
>
> > > Anything for attention.
Looks to me more like Worthless Wiecky is the one seeking attention.
> > I am sure if Patrick wanted it here, he would have put it here. He
> > needs no apologists. He is more than adequate as his own spokesman.
Hey, dumbass. yes, you, Worthless Wiecky: Patrick *did* put it here,
hidden away in a larger post. I merely extracted something of very
great interest to many member of these conferences and gave it
greater, sole prominence. And to rub your nose in it, I republish the
public service health article in full below. As Patrick then goes on
to tell you:
> Andre can put things wherever he likes. Its a free internet world and
> once I put
> a copy from a website carrying the heart rate report at r.a.t, anyone is
> free to transfer it elsewhere.
> I may have done the wrong thing regarding copyright to post something
> from a public radio broadcast
> but I don't care about that, its more important that the people I know
> should share something
> which could prolong their lives. =C2=A0
>
> I consider the report to be a very very
> useful peice of information regarding health at r.a.t probably because
> so many
> of its readers and contributors are now at an age where they would be
> fools if they
> didn't look at their health condition closely. Heart and aterial
> diseases are a very major killer
> and its prudent to know if you could be prone to dying in the next few
> years.
Probably the most important public service announcement on these
conferences this year, I would say. Don't be so modest, Patrick.
> Of course we cannot be certain when the curtain comes down on our part
> in life's drama
> but the recovery after exercise is a powerful indicator.
> I think I am one of the real lucky ones because I can ride a bicycle up
> a long mountain climb
> and at maybe 140BPM, lungs bursting and legs aching, and after stopping
> at the top
> my heart rate is back to 65 quickly, within a few minutes. If it only
> came down 12BPM
> after 1 minute, then maybe another 12BPM after 2 minutes, I'd be off to
> see my GP asap.
You're going to think I'm the worst kind of moron, but when I first
got a heart rate monitor, I was brassed off that my heartrate would
fall so fast when I stopped exercising. I thought, What's the point of
all this exertion if not to get my respiration rate up? And then it
falls like a stone the minute I stop pedalling... "Ha," my physician
said when he next came cycling with me, "I know something the great
Andre Jute doesn't. Your heart rate is supposed to fall when you stop.
What sort of trainers did you have when you were a jock in your
youth?" Actually, those days the trainers would run us up a 45 degree
slope and down again until the last man lay face down in his
breakfast; nobody bothered about wimpy details like heartrate. We won
the President's Cup each of the three years I captained the team. Of
course, now running up that hill even once would probably kill me.
> I did 85km this morning, and rode past about 25 other people, mostly
> much younger men and a few
> very slow young women going in my direction.
>
> Nobody passed me.
When I pass too many people, as sometimes happens, I start worrying
that I'm not taking in the scenery, and slow down. I start worrying
when the guys practising for the Connemara Marathon run past me. But
no, seriously, since I got a bike with automatic gears, I put my heart
rate on 80 per cent of max at the town border (just far enough from
home to warm up) and try to keep it there until I stop again, letting
the autobox take care of gradient and cadence. In short, I regulate
the entire ride by heart rate rather than speed across the road or any
of the other traditional methods (cadence never worked for me anyway
on the traditional style of bike).
> I used to race in my late 30s to mid 40s, and that really did stress me
> right fuckin out,
> but i'd ride home after the race and after a relax the HR would be 60.
>
> I've had a little relax after this morning, and HR is now 68.
> If it was say 80, I'be be very worried. It should go to about 52
> tommorrow night.
>
> There are a lot of people in my age group who will have serious heart
> problems
> and the sooner they know what the problems are and do something about
> it, the better.
> This will never be nice news to those who take a firm egyption position,
> ie, standing
> in De Nile.
> Many ppl I know have put off doing anything much at all for 40 years,
> and a decent bike ride would kill them stone dead.
> OK, so they *should* start by doing 1k, then 2k, then 4k then 8k and so
> on
> and as they build up all their fat will fall off and their weak body
> systems and muscle
> and bone structure will slowly improve.
> I like to swim a consistent constant average 240metres per day while my
> pool is warm enough to permit it
> between end of September and beginning of May. It only takes a few
> minutes to swim
> 240metres, but its value is enormous for health, even if I didn't cycle.
>
> But I can't help those who won't help themselves, ie, the majority of
> other 60 year olds.
>
> Take it or leave it.
>
> Its a beautiful fine cool day here in Canberra, perfect for cycling
> around.
>
> I enjoy feeling 30.
And may you feel 30 until you're at least 90.
>
> Forget one's depressions and go DO something!
>
> Cordially to all,
>
> Patrick Turner.
Super post, Patrick.
Andre Jute
* members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html
***********
Here is the original that Worthless Wiecky objects to, presumably only
on behalf of his own fat, slack, unhealthy ass:
***********
This was posted by Patrick Turner, known to Australian RBTers, to
rec.audio.tubes. I'm forwarding it as of general and important
interest to cyclists. -- Andre Jute
> Because I am giving this little OT talk about cycling,
> I'd like to include a report important for anyone to read regarding
> their likelyhood of heart problems.
>
> Norman Swan is a guy running a Health programme on ABC Radio National.
> he interviews Dr Micheal Lauer from the US........
>
>
>
> Norman Swan: Welcome to the program.
>
> Today, Vitamin D from one of the world's leading researchers in the
> field. In fact the person who found the active form of the vitamin, who
> with others has gone on to discover that a vitamin people thought was
> only important for bones might have a role in other parts of the body
> too, like the prostate or breast.
>
> And does sunblock affect your vitamin D status? You'll find out that
> later, too.
>
> Now I don't know about you but I'm always seeing joggers stopping to
> take their pulses and I'm never sure why; they probably have some
> esoteric knowledge about their fitness level which escapes me. But
> research published last week in the United States may one day give them
> a very good reason.
>
> In a six-year follow-up study, researchers showed that in a group of men
> and women aged around 57, the heart rate one minute after peak exercise
> strongly predicted their likelihood of dying in the following few years.
>
> It's a dramatic finding which could have an impact on the way people
> with serious coronary risk are screened or indeed whether you need to go
> on to have fancier tests like nuclear heart scans of angiography where
> your coronary blood vessels are catheterised and X-rayed.
>
> And if the findings are repeated outside the laboratory in real life,
> for example in pulse-taking joggers, it could have wide public health
> ramifications.
>
> The person who led the research team was Dr Michael Lauer, a
> cardiologist at the prestigious Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio.
>
> Michael Lauer: We looked at something very simple; we looked at the
> heart rate at the end of exercise, in people undergoing exercise
> testing, and then we looked at their heart rate one minute after they
> finished exercise. We took the difference between the heart rate at peak
> exercise and the heart rate one minute later, and we measured the heart
> rate recovery. We followed 2,400 patients for about six years, during
> which time 213 of them died. And what we found was that this change in
> heart rate during the first minute after exercise was an extremely
> powerful predictor of mortality, in fact it was the most powerful
> predictor of mortality that we've looked at; it was a more powerful
> predictor of mortality than nuclear tests, which look at blood flow
> abnormality to the heart, and it was a much more powerful predictor of
> mortality than the electrocardiogram we physically looked at during
> exercise.
>
> Norman Swan: Or during the stress test. So give me an idea of peak
> exercise in the stress test; how far do you take people in the stress
> test to get to this peak level?
>
> Michael Lauer: Well typically we will exercise people for about 8-12
> minutes, that's how long it usually takes to get somebody going very
> quickly and getting them to the point of maximal exhaustion. Let's say
> for a typical 50-year-old man, you'd expect the heart rate to rise from
> about 70 at rest to about 170 at peak exercise. And then what we'd like
> to see is the heart rate fall by at least 20 beats per minute during
> that first minute after exercise. That would take us down to 150. People
> with an abnormal heart rate recovery, the heart rate only falls by a
> little bit during that first minute after exercise. They were the ones
> who were at really high risk for subsequent death.
>
> Norman Swan: I think in the paper you defined the heart beat reduction
> as 12 beats per minute or less.
>
> Michael Lauer: Twelve beats a minute, that's correct.
>
> Norman Swan: As a reduction. Can you apply this knowledge, or is there
> any other research which suggests if you go for your average jog,
> measure your pulse at the end of it and your pulse a minute later,
> that's got any measure worth considering here?
>
> Michael Lauer: That's a very good question, because an average jog
> typically is not maximal exercise. We are looking at people who
> underwent some maximal exercise, and we're going to look at that as
> well. My guess is that it will work, but that's something that will
> require some further research.
>
> Norman Swan: What is it about the heart, what is it about the
> cardiovascular system that you're measuring here? Is it some sort of
> holistic measure that you can't pin it down to one thing, in other words
> you're getting a kind of global snapshot of the health of the
> cardiovascular system, or is it something specific?
>
> Michael Lauer: What we're actually measuring is something called the
> autonomic nervous system, that part of the nervous system that regulates
> heart rate and blood pressure and breathing. It's been known for a long
> time that abnormalities of the autonomic nervous system are correlated
> with death risk, but the problem is that the way in which these
> abnormalities are measured are very difficult. They require
> sophisticated equipment and they require the kind of tests which simply
> have not entered the realm of normal clinical practice. What we find is
> that these very, very simple measures that are obtained as part of
> regular routine exercise testing deflect what happens to the autonomic
> nervous system and provides us with just as powerful predictors of risk
> of death.
>
> Norman Swan: So what you're saying is you're not finding necessarily
> blocked coronary arteries; in other words you couldn't replace the
> stress test or some of these nuclear scans with this simple test,
> because it's not picking up a blocked artery which then you can go on
> and do an angioplasty on.
>
> Michael Lauer: Well we may very well; we are looking at something
> different than blocked coronary arteries. But what we can say is this:
> people have a normal heart rate recovery are at extremely low risk, and
> because they are at extremely low risk, it makes a lot more sense to
> manage them conservatively, and not project them to essentially risky
> procedures. If you know that somebody has a death risk of less than 1%
> per year then it really doesn't make very much sense to refer them for a
> procedure which carries with it a 1%-2% chance of death within 30 days.
>
> Norman Swan: So in other words, it's almost a negative message that you
> get from it from the positive result.
>
> Michael Lauer: Well yes. I would say right now the immediate practical
> use of this is that if a patient has a normal heart rate recovery, that
> identifies them as a low risk, therefore we don't really need to send
> them for further testing unless they're having for example refractory
> symptoms. But if their symptoms are easily controlled by medicines, or
> they're not having any symptoms at all, you know they're at very low
> risk and so we know that we can comfortably manage them conservatively
> without going on to any further testing.
>
> Norman Swan: Now this paper is interesting in that you don't actually
> commit yourselves to saying that these people died of heart attacks or
> sudden coronary death. It's overall death. Now commonsense would say
> that they karked it from their hearts, but you're not sure; why is that?
>
> Michael Lauer: We're not sure why they died, that's something which is
> going to have to require further research. What the exact mechanism is
> between this and death is not known. The current most popular theory is
> that if there's problems with the autonomic nervous system, people are
> more vulnerable to developing fatal heart arrhythmias, like sudden
> cardiac death and that's the most likely cause of death but that's going
> to require more work.
>
> Norman Swan: So just in summary: the next challenge with this is to see
> whether without bringing somebody into the laboratory, there is a way of
> predicting, with just regular exercise, whether or not your recovery is
> adequate?
>
> Michael Lauer: Right. And other things that we need to look at is how
> well this is working in other populations. We also need to look at how
> best to incorporate this with the rest of the exercise test result. And
> then of course one big question is what do you do about people who have
> an abnormal heart rate recovery beyond things that we already know
> about, like smoking cessation, cholesterol reduction and blood pressure
> reduction. Are there other things that we could specifically do to treat
> this abnormality, and that's something which will have to await further
> work.
>
> Norman Swan: Let's say for a moment you had somebody who has an abnormal
> heart rate recovery one minute after the stress test, but the stress
> test doesn't show any ischaemic changes, there's no changes due to
> shortage of blood supply, therefore nothing that otherwise would make
> you suggest there's a blocked coronary artery. If it was you, would you
> ask the doctor to send you off for an angiogram to see whether or not
> you've got a blocked coronary artery?
>
> Michael Lauer: I would be very worried. That would be an occasion I
> would be worried about. What I would do next is an imaging test; I would
> do like a nuclear test, or an echocardiogram to see if there's evidence
> of a blockage there, then I would go from there. I would only get a
> coronary angiogram if the imaging test showed that there is a problem.
>
> Nor
On Mar 30, 3:32=C2=A0am, Patrick Turner <i...@turneraudio . com .au> wrote:
> Peter Wieck wrote:
I have Worthless Wiecky in my killfile for a good reason. He has never
in all the years he has been stalking me said anything in the least
interesting. Even his malice is dull.
>
> > On Mar 28, 1:26=EF=BF=BDpm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo . com > wrote:
>
> > > Anything for attention.
Looks to me more like Worthless Wiecky is the one seeking attention.
> > I am sure if Patrick wanted it here, he would have put it here. He
> > needs no apologists. He is more than adequate as his own spokesman.
Hey, dumbass. yes, you, Worthless Wiecky: Patrick *did* put it here,
hidden away in a larger post. I merely extracted something of very
great interest to many member of these conferences and gave it
greater, sole prominence. And to rub your nose in it, I republish the
public service health article in full below. As Patrick then goes on
to tell you:
> Andre can put things wherever he likes. Its a free internet world and
> once I put
> a copy from a website carrying the heart rate report at r.a.t, anyone is
> free to transfer it elsewhere.
> I may have done the wrong thing regarding copyright to post something
> from a public radio broadcast
> but I don't care about that, its more important that the people I know
> should share something
> which could prolong their lives. =C2=A0
>
> I consider the report to be a very very
> useful peice of information regarding health at r.a.t probably because
> so many
> of its readers and contributors are now at an age where they would be
> fools if they
> didn't look at their health condition closely. Heart and aterial
> diseases are a very major killer
> and its prudent to know if you could be prone to dying in the next few
> years.
Probably the most important public service announcement on these
conferences this year, I would say. Don't be so modest, Patrick.
> Of course we cannot be certain when the curtain comes down on our part
> in life's drama
> but the recovery after exercise is a powerful indicator.
> I think I am one of the real lucky ones because I can ride a bicycle up
> a long mountain climb
> and at maybe 140BPM, lungs bursting and legs aching, and after stopping
> at the top
> my heart rate is back to 65 quickly, within a few minutes. If it only
> came down 12BPM
> after 1 minute, then maybe another 12BPM after 2 minutes, I'd be off to
> see my GP asap.
You're going to think I'm the worst kind of moron, but when I first
got a heart rate monitor, I was brassed off that my heartrate would
fall so fast when I stopped exercising. I thought, What's the point of
all this exertion if not to get my respiration rate up? And then it
falls like a stone the minute I stop pedalling... "Ha," my physician
said when he next came cycling with me, "I know something the great
Andre Jute doesn't. Your heart rate is supposed to fall when you stop.
What sort of trainers did you have when you were a jock in your
youth?" Actually, those days the trainers would run us up a 45 degree
slope and down again until the last man lay face down in his
breakfast; nobody bothered about wimpy details like heartrate. We won
the President's Cup each of the three years I captained the team. Of
course, now running up that hill even once would probably kill me.
> I did 85km this morning, and rode past about 25 other people, mostly
> much younger men and a few
> very slow young women going in my direction.
>
> Nobody passed me.
When I pass too many people, as sometimes happens, I start worrying
that I'm not taking in the scenery, and slow down. I start worrying
when the guys practising for the Connemara Marathon run past me. But
no, seriously, since I got a bike with automatic gears, I put my heart
rate on 80 per cent of max at the town border (just far enough from
home to warm up) and try to keep it there until I stop again, letting
the autobox take care of gradient and cadence. In short, I regulate
the entire ride by heart rate rather than speed across the road or any
of the other traditional methods (cadence never worked for me anyway
on the traditional style of bike).
> I used to race in my late 30s to mid 40s, and that really did stress me
> right fuckin out,
> but i'd ride home after the race and after a relax the HR would be 60.
>
> I've had a little relax after this morning, and HR is now 68.
> If it was say 80, I'be be very worried. It should go to about 52
> tommorrow night.
>
> There are a lot of people in my age group who will have serious heart
> problems
> and the sooner they know what the problems are and do something about
> it, the better.
> This will never be nice news to those who take a firm egyption position,
> ie, standing
> in De Nile.
> Many ppl I know have put off doing anything much at all for 40 years,
> and a decent bike ride would kill them stone dead.
> OK, so they *should* start by doing 1k, then 2k, then 4k then 8k and so
> on
> and as they build up all their fat will fall off and their weak body
> systems and muscle
> and bone structure will slowly improve.
> I like to swim a consistent constant average 240metres per day while my
> pool is warm enough to permit it
> between end of September and beginning of May. It only takes a few
> minutes to swim
> 240metres, but its value is enormous for health, even if I didn't cycle.
>
> But I can't help those who won't help themselves, ie, the majority of
> other 60 year olds.
>
> Take it or leave it.
>
> Its a beautiful fine cool day here in Canberra, perfect for cycling
> around.
>
> I enjoy feeling 30.
And may you feel 30 until you're at least 90.
>
> Forget one's depressions and go DO something!
>
> Cordially to all,
>
> Patrick Turner.
Super post, Patrick.
Andre Jute
* members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html
***********
Here is the original that Worthless Wiecky objects to, presumably only
on behalf of his own fat, slack, unhealthy ass:
***********
This was posted by Patrick Turner, known to Australian RBTers, to
rec.audio.tubes. I'm forwarding it as of general and important
interest to cyclists. -- Andre Jute
> Because I am giving this little OT talk about cycling,
> I'd like to include a report important for anyone to read regarding
> their likelyhood of heart problems.
>
> Norman Swan is a guy running a Health programme on ABC Radio National.
> he interviews Dr Micheal Lauer from the US........
>
>
>
> Norman Swan: Welcome to the program.
>
> Today, Vitamin D from one of the world's leading researchers in the
> field. In fact the person who found the active form of the vitamin, who
> with others has gone on to discover that a vitamin people thought was
> only important for bones might have a role in other parts of the body
> too, like the prostate or breast.
>
> And does sunblock affect your vitamin D status? You'll find out that
> later, too.
>
> Now I don't know about you but I'm always seeing joggers stopping to
> take their pulses and I'm never sure why; they probably have some
> esoteric knowledge about their fitness level which escapes me. But
> research published last week in the United States may one day give them
> a very good reason.
>
> In a six-year follow-up study, researchers showed that in a group of men
> and women aged around 57, the heart rate one minute after peak exercise
> strongly predicted their likelihood of dying in the following few years.
>
> It's a dramatic finding which could have an impact on the way people
> with serious coronary risk are screened or indeed whether you need to go
> on to have fancier tests like nuclear heart scans of angiography where
> your coronary blood vessels are catheterised and X-rayed.
>
> And if the findings are repeated outside the laboratory in real life,
> for example in pulse-taking joggers, it could have wide public health
> ramifications.
>
> The person who led the research team was Dr Michael Lauer, a
> cardiologist at the prestigious Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio.
>
> Michael Lauer: We looked at something very simple; we looked at the
> heart rate at the end of exercise, in people undergoing exercise
> testing, and then we looked at their heart rate one minute after they
> finished exercise. We took the difference between the heart rate at peak
> exercise and the heart rate one minute later, and we measured the heart
> rate recovery. We followed 2,400 patients for about six years, during
> which time 213 of them died. And what we found was that this change in
> heart rate during the first minute after exercise was an extremely
> powerful predictor of mortality, in fact it was the most powerful
> predictor of mortality that we've looked at; it was a more powerful
> predictor of mortality than nuclear tests, which look at blood flow
> abnormality to the heart, and it was a much more powerful predictor of
> mortality than the electrocardiogram we physically looked at during
> exercise.
>
> Norman Swan: Or during the stress test. So give me an idea of peak
> exercise in the stress test; how far do you take people in the stress
> test to get to this peak level?
>
> Michael Lauer: Well typically we will exercise people for about 8-12
> minutes, that's how long it usually takes to get somebody going very
> quickly and getting them to the point of maximal exhaustion. Let's say
> for a typical 50-year-old man, you'd expect the heart rate to rise from
> about 70 at rest to about 170 at peak exercise. And then what we'd like
> to see is the heart rate fall by at least 20 beats per minute during
> that first minute after exercise. That would take us down to 150. People
> with an abnormal heart rate recovery, the heart rate only falls by a
> little bit during that first minute after exercise. They were the ones
> who were at really high risk for subsequent death.
>
> Norman Swan: I think in the paper you defined the heart beat reduction
> as 12 beats per minute or less.
>
> Michael Lauer: Twelve beats a minute, that's correct.
>
> Norman Swan: As a reduction. Can you apply this knowledge, or is there
> any other research which suggests if you go for your average jog,
> measure your pulse at the end of it and your pulse a minute later,
> that's got any measure worth considering here?
>
> Michael Lauer: That's a very good question, because an average jog
> typically is not maximal exercise. We are looking at people who
> underwent some maximal exercise, and we're going to look at that as
> well. My guess is that it will work, but that's something that will
> require some further research.
>
> Norman Swan: What is it about the heart, what is it about the
> cardiovascular system that you're measuring here? Is it some sort of
> holistic measure that you can't pin it down to one thing, in other words
> you're getting a kind of global snapshot of the health of the
> cardiovascular system, or is it something specific?
>
> Michael Lauer: What we're actually measuring is something called the
> autonomic nervous system, that part of the nervous system that regulates
> heart rate and blood pressure and breathing. It's been known for a long
> time that abnormalities of the autonomic nervous system are correlated
> with death risk, but the problem is that the way in which these
> abnormalities are measured are very difficult. They require
> sophisticated equipment and they require the kind of tests which simply
> have not entered the realm of normal clinical practice. What we find is
> that these very, very simple measures that are obtained as part of
> regular routine exercise testing deflect what happens to the autonomic
> nervous system and provides us with just as powerful predictors of risk
> of death.
>
> Norman Swan: So what you're saying is you're not finding necessarily
> blocked coronary arteries; in other words you couldn't replace the
> stress test or some of these nuclear scans with this simple test,
> because it's not picking up a blocked artery which then you can go on
> and do an angioplasty on.
>
> Michael Lauer: Well we may very well; we are looking at something
> different than blocked coronary arteries. But what we can say is this:
> people have a normal heart rate recovery are at extremely low risk, and
> because they are at extremely low risk, it makes a lot more sense to
> manage them conservatively, and not project them to essentially risky
> procedures. If you know that somebody has a death risk of less than 1%
> per year then it really doesn't make very much sense to refer them for a
> procedure which carries with it a 1%-2% chance of death within 30 days.
>
> Norman Swan: So in other words, it's almost a negative message that you
> get from it from the positive result.
>
> Michael Lauer: Well yes. I would say right now the immediate practical
> use of this is that if a patient has a normal heart rate recovery, that
> identifies them as a low risk, therefore we don't really need to send
> them for further testing unless they're having for example refractory
> symptoms. But if their symptoms are easily controlled by medicines, or
> they're not having any symptoms at all, you know they're at very low
> risk and so we know that we can comfortably manage them conservatively
> without going on to any further testing.
>
> Norman Swan: Now this paper is interesting in that you don't actually
> commit yourselves to saying that these people died of heart attacks or
> sudden coronary death. It's overall death. Now commonsense would say
> that they karked it from their hearts, but you're not sure; why is that?
>
> Michael Lauer: We're not sure why they died, that's something which is
> going to have to require further research. What the exact mechanism is
> between this and death is not known. The current most popular theory is
> that if there's problems with the autonomic nervous system, people are
> more vulnerable to developing fatal heart arrhythmias, like sudden
> cardiac death and that's the most likely cause of death but that's going
> to require more work.
>
> Norman Swan: So just in summary: the next challenge with this is to see
> whether without bringing somebody into the laboratory, there is a way of
> predicting, with just regular exercise, whether or not your recovery is
> adequate?
>
> Michael Lauer: Right. And other things that we need to look at is how
> well this is working in other populations. We also need to look at how
> best to incorporate this with the rest of the exercise test result. And
> then of course one big question is what do you do about people who have
> an abnormal heart rate recovery beyond things that we already know
> about, like smoking cessation, cholesterol reduction and blood pressure
> reduction. Are there other things that we could specifically do to treat
> this abnormality, and that's something which will have to await further
> work.
>
> Norman Swan: Let's say for a moment you had somebody who has an abnormal
> heart rate recovery one minute after the stress test, but the stress
> test doesn't show any ischaemic changes, there's no changes due to
> shortage of blood supply, therefore nothing that otherwise would make
> you suggest there's a blocked coronary artery. If it was you, would you
> ask the doctor to send you off for an angiogram to see whether or not
> you've got a blocked coronary artery?
>
> Michael Lauer: I would be very worried. That would be an occasion I
> would be worried about. What I would do next is an imaging test; I would
> do like a nuclear test, or an echocardiogram to see if there's evidence
> of a blockage there, then I would go from there. I would only get a
> coronary angiogram if the imaging test showed that there is a problem.
>
> Nor
Reply from: -- messaggio eliminato --
Date: 30 Mar 2008, 18:44
-- deleted messages --
Reply from: -- messaggio eliminato --
Date: 30 Mar 2008, 19:02
-- deleted messages --
Reply from: -- messaggio eliminato --
Date: 30 Mar 2008, 19:11
-- deleted messages --
Re: Nostradamus effect of 1m heart recovery rate
Hi RATs!
Exercise is fun and exciting. Then I got sick and can't even do the
warmups. Life is fickle.
The various religious institutiions did encourage Music, but, so did
hotels, bars and rich hosts. The churches had much wealth, but, not
all.
Now in the perfect future we all may listen to whatever we like until
some disease or mishap shuts down our ears. Sigh.
Happy Ears!
Al
Hi RATs!
Exercise is fun and exciting. Then I got sick and can't even do the
warmups. Life is fickle.
The various religious institutiions did encourage Music, but, so did
hotels, bars and rich hosts. The churches had much wealth, but, not
all.
Now in the perfect future we all may listen to whatever we like until
some disease or mishap shuts down our ears. Sigh.
Happy Ears!
Al
Re: Nostradamus effect of 1m heart recovery rate
"tubegarden" <tubegarden@aol . com > wrote in message
news:351b7ee2-fa03-4e22-8d69-80565761c0b0@u10g2000prn.googlegroups . com ...
> Hi RATs!
>
> Exercise is fun and exciting. Then I got sick and can't even do the
> warmups. Life is fickle.
>
> The various religious institutiions did encourage Music, but, so did
> hotels, bars and rich hosts. The churches had much wealth, but, not
> all.
>
> Now in the perfect future we all may listen to whatever we like until
> some disease or mishap shuts down our ears. Sigh.
>
Hi Al. We live in an age where music is all around us,
(maybe too much of it) But it has not always been thus.
Until the early/mid 1800s, music was indeed something
enjoyed by the rich, and used to advantage by the church.
With very few exceptions, the only early music we know about
is classical in origin. The common folk must have had songs
and music but little is known about them. Before the days of the
printing press and the broadsheet, song was a way to spread
news of deeds and exploits.
In England, during the time of the Napoleonic Wars, the
British Army used "music" to great advantage by sending out
recruiting sergeants with a drummer and two fife players
resplendent in their scarlet uniforms and powdered wigs.
This was the best, and most rousing music that people living
in country areas had ever heard. They fell in smartly
behind the band, and took the King's shilling willingly.
Cheers
Iain
"tubegarden" <tubegarden@aol . com > wrote in message
news:351b7ee2-fa03-4e22-8d69-80565761c0b0@u10g2000prn.googlegroups . com ...
> Hi RATs!
>
> Exercise is fun and exciting. Then I got sick and can't even do the
> warmups. Life is fickle.
>
> The various religious institutiions did encourage Music, but, so did
> hotels, bars and rich hosts. The churches had much wealth, but, not
> all.
>
> Now in the perfect future we all may listen to whatever we like until
> some disease or mishap shuts down our ears. Sigh.
>
Hi Al. We live in an age where music is all around us,
(maybe too much of it) But it has not always been thus.
Until the early/mid 1800s, music was indeed something
enjoyed by the rich, and used to advantage by the church.
With very few exceptions, the only early music we know about
is classical in origin. The common folk must have had songs
and music but little is known about them. Before the days of the
printing press and the broadsheet, song was a way to spread
news of deeds and exploits.
In England, during the time of the Napoleonic Wars, the
British Army used "music" to great advantage by sending out
recruiting sergeants with a drummer and two fife players
resplendent in their scarlet uniforms and powdered wigs.
This was the best, and most rousing music that people living
in country areas had ever heard. They fell in smartly
behind the band, and took the King's shilling willingly.
Cheers
Iain
Reply from: -- messaggio eliminato --
Date: 31 Mar 2008, 07:44
-- deleted messages --
Reply from: -- messaggio eliminato --
Date: 31 Mar 2008, 18:46
-- deleted messages --
Reply from: -- messaggio eliminato --
Date: 01 Apr 2008, 01:30
-- deleted messages --
fuck Nostradamus he's wrong anyway.
"Patrick Turner" <info@turneraudio . com .au> wrote in message
news:47EFC34F.E02966FF@turneraudio . com .au...
> Well, please excuse my top posting, but I have to agree with
> all of what Andre says below, and I hope Peter finds food for thought
> in the fullness of time.
>
> I am not here to make enemies.
>
> After today's little 85km ride, I did recover well,
>
All this bike riding, your bloody heart attack material, We've got a
bloke like you up this way, goes out every morning, for a two hour ride,
never stops telling people how fit and active he is.. And while he's out
riding the hills and watching the birds I,m round his place a couple of
days a week giving her indoors a seeing too
She's got a smile on her face and he thinks it's him.
Really you would do yourself a favour, if you bought yourself a motorbike,
You can still watch the birds, and countryside, and have a good rest
while your at it.
Just remember the old adage,,
" Why should a working man work, when he has the health and strength to
lie in bed. "
bassett
"Patrick Turner" <info@turneraudio . com .au> wrote in message
news:47EFC34F.E02966FF@turneraudio . com .au...
> Well, please excuse my top posting, but I have to agree with
> all of what Andre says below, and I hope Peter finds food for thought
> in the fullness of time.
>
> I am not here to make enemies.
>
> After today's little 85km ride, I did recover well,
>
All this bike riding, your bloody heart attack material, We've got a
bloke like you up this way, goes out every morning, for a two hour ride,
never stops telling people how fit and active he is.. And while he's out
riding the hills and watching the birds I,m round his place a couple of
days a week giving her indoors a seeing too
She's got a smile on her face and he thinks it's him.
Really you would do yourself a favour, if you bought yourself a motorbike,
You can still watch the birds, and countryside, and have a good rest
while your at it.
Just remember the old adage,,
" Why should a working man work, when he has the health and strength to
lie in bed. "
bassett
Re: Nostradamus effect of 1m heart recovery rate
I think a better correlation of longevity viz-a-viz the heart is the
thickness of the left ventricle wall. It's thickness is inversely
proportional to life span.
Jon
I think a better correlation of longevity viz-a-viz the heart is the
thickness of the left ventricle wall. It's thickness is inversely
proportional to life span.
Jon
Re: Nostradamus effect of 1m heart recovery rate
Patrick wrote (in part):
I consider the report to be a very very useful peice of information
regarding health at r.a.t probably because so many of its readers and
contributors are now at an age where they would be fools if they
didn't look at their health condition closely.
=====
Patrick,
If only people understood that ALL ages are the right ages to look after
your health!
It sounds as if you and I are living along the same lines. I ride
nearly every day, I work out at the gym four days a week, and I have
recent proof that my bike climbing is better than it was 12 - 15 years ago.
I just resumed wearing a heart rate monitor after not doing so for many
years. I'll pay closer attention in the next several days, but I
believe my heart rate drops by at least 12 bpm in the first minute after
I stop for a red light, for example. So, I'm relieved to think that I
may live for a while longer....
Everyone else - if you aren't already doing so, please get busy now
taking care of yourselves!
Patrick wrote (in part):
I consider the report to be a very very useful peice of information
regarding health at r.a.t probably because so many of its readers and
contributors are now at an age where they would be fools if they
didn't look at their health condition closely.
=====
Patrick,
If only people understood that ALL ages are the right ages to look after
your health!
It sounds as if you and I are living along the same lines. I ride
nearly every day, I work out at the gym four days a week, and I have
recent proof that my bike climbing is better than it was 12 - 15 years ago.
I just resumed wearing a heart rate monitor after not doing so for many
years. I'll pay closer attention in the next several days, but I
believe my heart rate drops by at least 12 bpm in the first minute after
I stop for a red light, for example. So, I'm relieved to think that I
may live for a while longer....
Everyone else - if you aren't already doing so, please get busy now
taking care of yourselves!
