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Counter Steering
Counter Steering
So here's a question. At "low" speed, usually about 10mph or slower,
a bike steers in the direction you turn the bar. Above that speed,
you use counter steering. eg, you push forward on the left grip to
turn left.
If steering a two wheeled vehicle is a differentiable function of
speed, then there should be an inflection point. This would be a
speed where the bike does not steer.
It sounds logical to me. But I've never found this magic speed where
the bike just goes straight.
Any thoughts on this?
I'm thinking of trying this experiment in a parking lot. Take the
bike and do a low speed left hand turn. Without adjusting the bar,
increase speed slowly. See at what speed the bike transitions from a
left hand turn to a right hand turn. Maybe I can get the bike to go
in a straight line at this transition speed.
--
This post uses 100% post consumer electrons and 100% virgin photons.
At 2.6 miles per minute, you don't really have time to get bored.
--- Pete Roehling on rec.motorcycles
I bump into a lot of veteran riders in my travels.
--- David Hough: Proficient Motorcycling
So here's a question. At "low" speed, usually about 10mph or slower,
a bike steers in the direction you turn the bar. Above that speed,
you use counter steering. eg, you push forward on the left grip to
turn left.
If steering a two wheeled vehicle is a differentiable function of
speed, then there should be an inflection point. This would be a
speed where the bike does not steer.
It sounds logical to me. But I've never found this magic speed where
the bike just goes straight.
Any thoughts on this?
I'm thinking of trying this experiment in a parking lot. Take the
bike and do a low speed left hand turn. Without adjusting the bar,
increase speed slowly. See at what speed the bike transitions from a
left hand turn to a right hand turn. Maybe I can get the bike to go
in a straight line at this transition speed.
--
This post uses 100% post consumer electrons and 100% virgin photons.
At 2.6 miles per minute, you don't really have time to get bored.
--- Pete Roehling on rec.motorcycles
I bump into a lot of veteran riders in my travels.
--- David Hough: Proficient Motorcycling
Re: Counter Steering
"David Steuber" <david@david-steuber . com > wrote
> So here's a question. At "low" speed, usually about 10mph or slower,
> a bike steers in the direction you turn the bar. Above that speed,
> you use counter steering. eg, you push forward on the left grip to
> turn left.
Nope. You're confusing two different things, and it's a common mistake.
First thing: Countersteering. It works at *all* speeds, right down to where
you fall over because you're moving too slowly to retain your balance. The
reason you don't notice that it's still working at low speeds is that it
takes *very* little pressure on the bars at low speeds to initiate a turn.
(And initiating the turn and ending it is all that countersteering does.)
If you want to prove this to yourself, simply ride straight ahead on a level
parking lot at the lowest speed at which you can maintain a straight line,
and then suddenly steer your bike to the right without shifting your
weight..
Q: What did the bike try to do?
A: It tried to fall over to it's left, and that's countersteering taking
effect.
That's the same thing you do to initiate a turn at higher speeds: turn the
front wheel slightly *away* from the direction in which you wish to turn,
then return the bars to a more-or-less straight ahead attitude once you've
established your lean angle.
It's that lean angle combined with the bike's suspension geometry and the
tire profile that cause the bike to track around the corner with the bars
pointing more-or-less straight ahead.
Second thing: At low speeds you can't lean the bike over far enough for the
suspension geometry and tire profile to take you around a tight turn, and
you'd fall over to the inside if you tried. Therefore, you have to actually
steer the bike around the turn with the bars.
> If steering a two wheeled vehicle is a differentiable function of
> speed, then there should be an inflection point. This would be a
> speed where the bike does not steer.
But we all know that doesn't happen in the real world, and that's because
countersteering never stops working, it just takes less and less effort to
use it as you get slower and slower, and conversely you have to begin adding
more and more steering input at the same time.
The thing to remember is that both the change in countersteering effort and
the amount you have to turn the bars to negotiate a given tight corner
happen gradually over a range of speeds: there is no single point where one
thing starts working and the other stops. It's just that the slower you get,
the more steering input you have to add to the countersteering that's
already there.
> It sounds logical to me. But I've never found this magic speed where
> the bike just goes straight.
For the reasons listed above, there isn't one. And a damned good thing, too!
Otherwise, we'd all have run our bikes straight off of the outside of the
road when we accidentally tried to go around a turn at that "magic speed".
"David Steuber" <david@david-steuber . com > wrote
> So here's a question. At "low" speed, usually about 10mph or slower,
> a bike steers in the direction you turn the bar. Above that speed,
> you use counter steering. eg, you push forward on the left grip to
> turn left.
Nope. You're confusing two different things, and it's a common mistake.
First thing: Countersteering. It works at *all* speeds, right down to where
you fall over because you're moving too slowly to retain your balance. The
reason you don't notice that it's still working at low speeds is that it
takes *very* little pressure on the bars at low speeds to initiate a turn.
(And initiating the turn and ending it is all that countersteering does.)
If you want to prove this to yourself, simply ride straight ahead on a level
parking lot at the lowest speed at which you can maintain a straight line,
and then suddenly steer your bike to the right without shifting your
weight..
Q: What did the bike try to do?
A: It tried to fall over to it's left, and that's countersteering taking
effect.
That's the same thing you do to initiate a turn at higher speeds: turn the
front wheel slightly *away* from the direction in which you wish to turn,
then return the bars to a more-or-less straight ahead attitude once you've
established your lean angle.
It's that lean angle combined with the bike's suspension geometry and the
tire profile that cause the bike to track around the corner with the bars
pointing more-or-less straight ahead.
Second thing: At low speeds you can't lean the bike over far enough for the
suspension geometry and tire profile to take you around a tight turn, and
you'd fall over to the inside if you tried. Therefore, you have to actually
steer the bike around the turn with the bars.
> If steering a two wheeled vehicle is a differentiable function of
> speed, then there should be an inflection point. This would be a
> speed where the bike does not steer.
But we all know that doesn't happen in the real world, and that's because
countersteering never stops working, it just takes less and less effort to
use it as you get slower and slower, and conversely you have to begin adding
more and more steering input at the same time.
The thing to remember is that both the change in countersteering effort and
the amount you have to turn the bars to negotiate a given tight corner
happen gradually over a range of speeds: there is no single point where one
thing starts working and the other stops. It's just that the slower you get,
the more steering input you have to add to the countersteering that's
already there.
> It sounds logical to me. But I've never found this magic speed where
> the bike just goes straight.
For the reasons listed above, there isn't one. And a damned good thing, too!
Otherwise, we'd all have run our bikes straight off of the outside of the
road when we accidentally tried to go around a turn at that "magic speed".
Re: Counter Steering
Great answer... thanks!
"P.Roehling" <Pete.Roehling@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote in message
news:130mv3h5laiocf2@corp.supernews . com ...
Great answer... thanks!
"P.Roehling" <Pete.Roehling@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote in message
news:130mv3h5laiocf2@corp.supernews . com ...
Re: Counter Steering
"Charles Summers" <vmm@comcast . net > wrote
> Great answer... thanks!
Thanks.
"Charles Summers" <vmm@comcast . net > wrote
> Great answer... thanks!
Thanks.
Re: Counter Steering
In article <130mv3h5laiocf2@corp.supernews . com >,
"P.Roehling" <Pete.Roehling@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote:
> "David Steuber" <david@david-steuber . com > wrote
>
> > So here's a question. At "low" speed, usually about 10mph or slower,
> > a bike steers in the direction you turn the bar. Above that speed,
> > you use counter steering. eg, you push forward on the left grip to
> > turn left.
>
> Nope. You're confusing two different things, and it's a common mistake.
>
> First thing: Countersteering. It works at *all* speeds, right down to where
> you fall over because you're moving too slowly to retain your balance. The
> reason you don't notice that it's still working at low speeds is that it
> takes *very* little pressure on the bars at low speeds to initiate a turn.
> (And initiating the turn and ending it is all that countersteering does.)
>
> If you want to prove this to yourself, simply ride straight ahead on a level
> parking lot at the lowest speed at which you can maintain a straight line,
> and then suddenly steer your bike to the right without shifting your
> weight..
>
> Q: What did the bike try to do?
>
> A: It tried to fall over to it's left, and that's countersteering taking
> effect.
>
> That's the same thing you do to initiate a turn at higher speeds: turn the
> front wheel slightly *away* from the direction in which you wish to turn,
> then return the bars to a more-or-less straight ahead attitude once you've
> established your lean angle.
>
> It's that lean angle combined with the bike's suspension geometry and the
> tire profile that cause the bike to track around the corner with the bars
> pointing more-or-less straight ahead.
>
> Second thing: At low speeds you can't lean the bike over far enough for the
> suspension geometry and tire profile to take you around a tight turn, and
> you'd fall over to the inside if you tried. Therefore, you have to actually
> steer the bike around the turn with the bars.
>
> > If steering a two wheeled vehicle is a differentiable function of
> > speed, then there should be an inflection point. This would be a
> > speed where the bike does not steer.
>
> But we all know that doesn't happen in the real world, and that's because
> countersteering never stops working, it just takes less and less effort to
> use it as you get slower and slower, and conversely you have to begin adding
> more and more steering input at the same time.
> The thing to remember is that both the change in countersteering effort and
> the amount you have to turn the bars to negotiate a given tight corner
> happen gradually over a range of speeds: there is no single point where one
> thing starts working and the other stops. It's just that the slower you get,
> the more steering input you have to add to the countersteering that's
> already there.
>
> > It sounds logical to me. But I've never found this magic speed where
> > the bike just goes straight.
>
> For the reasons listed above, there isn't one. And a damned good thing, too!
> Otherwise, we'd all have run our bikes straight off of the outside of the
> road when we accidentally tried to go around a turn at that "magic speed".
OMG. Another A for my FAQ. May I use it?
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: * w w w .timberwoof . com /motorcycle/faq.shtml
It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you.
In article <130mv3h5laiocf2@corp.supernews . com >,
"P.Roehling" <Pete.Roehling@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote:
> "David Steuber" <david@david-steuber . com > wrote
>
> > So here's a question. At "low" speed, usually about 10mph or slower,
> > a bike steers in the direction you turn the bar. Above that speed,
> > you use counter steering. eg, you push forward on the left grip to
> > turn left.
>
> Nope. You're confusing two different things, and it's a common mistake.
>
> First thing: Countersteering. It works at *all* speeds, right down to where
> you fall over because you're moving too slowly to retain your balance. The
> reason you don't notice that it's still working at low speeds is that it
> takes *very* little pressure on the bars at low speeds to initiate a turn.
> (And initiating the turn and ending it is all that countersteering does.)
>
> If you want to prove this to yourself, simply ride straight ahead on a level
> parking lot at the lowest speed at which you can maintain a straight line,
> and then suddenly steer your bike to the right without shifting your
> weight..
>
> Q: What did the bike try to do?
>
> A: It tried to fall over to it's left, and that's countersteering taking
> effect.
>
> That's the same thing you do to initiate a turn at higher speeds: turn the
> front wheel slightly *away* from the direction in which you wish to turn,
> then return the bars to a more-or-less straight ahead attitude once you've
> established your lean angle.
>
> It's that lean angle combined with the bike's suspension geometry and the
> tire profile that cause the bike to track around the corner with the bars
> pointing more-or-less straight ahead.
>
> Second thing: At low speeds you can't lean the bike over far enough for the
> suspension geometry and tire profile to take you around a tight turn, and
> you'd fall over to the inside if you tried. Therefore, you have to actually
> steer the bike around the turn with the bars.
>
> > If steering a two wheeled vehicle is a differentiable function of
> > speed, then there should be an inflection point. This would be a
> > speed where the bike does not steer.
>
> But we all know that doesn't happen in the real world, and that's because
> countersteering never stops working, it just takes less and less effort to
> use it as you get slower and slower, and conversely you have to begin adding
> more and more steering input at the same time.
> The thing to remember is that both the change in countersteering effort and
> the amount you have to turn the bars to negotiate a given tight corner
> happen gradually over a range of speeds: there is no single point where one
> thing starts working and the other stops. It's just that the slower you get,
> the more steering input you have to add to the countersteering that's
> already there.
>
> > It sounds logical to me. But I've never found this magic speed where
> > the bike just goes straight.
>
> For the reasons listed above, there isn't one. And a damned good thing, too!
> Otherwise, we'd all have run our bikes straight off of the outside of the
> road when we accidentally tried to go around a turn at that "magic speed".
OMG. Another A for my FAQ. May I use it?
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: * w w w .timberwoof . com /motorcycle/faq.shtml
It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you.
Re: Counter Steering
"Timberwoof" <timberwoof.spam@infernosoft . com > wrote
> OMG. Another A for my FAQ. May I use it?
Sure. I feel complimented that you'd find it useful.
"Timberwoof" <timberwoof.spam@infernosoft . com > wrote
> OMG. Another A for my FAQ. May I use it?
Sure. I feel complimented that you'd find it useful.
Re: Counter Steering
Timberwoof wrote:
> In article <130mv3h5laiocf2@corp.supernews . com >,
> "P.Roehling" <Pete.Roehling@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote:
>
>> "David Steuber" <david@david-steuber . com > wrote
>>
>>> So here's a question. At "low" speed, usually about 10mph or slower,
>>> a bike steers in the direction you turn the bar. Above that speed,
>>> you use counter steering. eg, you push forward on the left grip to
>>> turn left.
>> Nope. You're confusing two different things, and it's a common mistake.
>>
>> First thing: Countersteering. It works at *all* speeds, right down to where
>> you fall over because you're moving too slowly to retain your balance. The
>> reason you don't notice that it's still working at low speeds is that it
>> takes *very* little pressure on the bars at low speeds to initiate a turn.
>> (And initiating the turn and ending it is all that countersteering does.)
>>
>> If you want to prove this to yourself, simply ride straight ahead on a level
>> parking lot at the lowest speed at which you can maintain a straight line,
>> and then suddenly steer your bike to the right without shifting your
>> weight..
>>
>> Q: What did the bike try to do?
>>
>> A: It tried to fall over to it's left, and that's countersteering taking
>> effect.
>>
>> That's the same thing you do to initiate a turn at higher speeds: turn the
>> front wheel slightly *away* from the direction in which you wish to turn,
>> then return the bars to a more-or-less straight ahead attitude once you've
>> established your lean angle.
>>
>> It's that lean angle combined with the bike's suspension geometry and the
>> tire profile that cause the bike to track around the corner with the bars
>> pointing more-or-less straight ahead.
>>
>> Second thing: At low speeds you can't lean the bike over far enough for the
>> suspension geometry and tire profile to take you around a tight turn, and
>> you'd fall over to the inside if you tried. Therefore, you have to actually
>> steer the bike around the turn with the bars.
>>
>>> If steering a two wheeled vehicle is a differentiable function of
>>> speed, then there should be an inflection point. This would be a
>>> speed where the bike does not steer.
>> But we all know that doesn't happen in the real world, and that's because
>> countersteering never stops working, it just takes less and less effort to
>> use it as you get slower and slower, and conversely you have to begin adding
>> more and more steering input at the same time.
>> The thing to remember is that both the change in countersteering effort and
>> the amount you have to turn the bars to negotiate a given tight corner
>> happen gradually over a range of speeds: there is no single point where one
>> thing starts working and the other stops. It's just that the slower you get,
>> the more steering input you have to add to the countersteering that's
>> already there.
>>
>>> It sounds logical to me. But I've never found this magic speed where
>>> the bike just goes straight.
>> For the reasons listed above, there isn't one. And a damned good thing, too!
>> Otherwise, we'd all have run our bikes straight off of the outside of the
>> road when we accidentally tried to go around a turn at that "magic speed".
>
> OMG. Another A for my FAQ. May I use it?
>
Only if you include that shafties can't countersteer.
Timberwoof wrote:
> In article <130mv3h5laiocf2@corp.supernews . com >,
> "P.Roehling" <Pete.Roehling@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote:
>
>> "David Steuber" <david@david-steuber . com > wrote
>>
>>> So here's a question. At "low" speed, usually about 10mph or slower,
>>> a bike steers in the direction you turn the bar. Above that speed,
>>> you use counter steering. eg, you push forward on the left grip to
>>> turn left.
>> Nope. You're confusing two different things, and it's a common mistake.
>>
>> First thing: Countersteering. It works at *all* speeds, right down to where
>> you fall over because you're moving too slowly to retain your balance. The
>> reason you don't notice that it's still working at low speeds is that it
>> takes *very* little pressure on the bars at low speeds to initiate a turn.
>> (And initiating the turn and ending it is all that countersteering does.)
>>
>> If you want to prove this to yourself, simply ride straight ahead on a level
>> parking lot at the lowest speed at which you can maintain a straight line,
>> and then suddenly steer your bike to the right without shifting your
>> weight..
>>
>> Q: What did the bike try to do?
>>
>> A: It tried to fall over to it's left, and that's countersteering taking
>> effect.
>>
>> That's the same thing you do to initiate a turn at higher speeds: turn the
>> front wheel slightly *away* from the direction in which you wish to turn,
>> then return the bars to a more-or-less straight ahead attitude once you've
>> established your lean angle.
>>
>> It's that lean angle combined with the bike's suspension geometry and the
>> tire profile that cause the bike to track around the corner with the bars
>> pointing more-or-less straight ahead.
>>
>> Second thing: At low speeds you can't lean the bike over far enough for the
>> suspension geometry and tire profile to take you around a tight turn, and
>> you'd fall over to the inside if you tried. Therefore, you have to actually
>> steer the bike around the turn with the bars.
>>
>>> If steering a two wheeled vehicle is a differentiable function of
>>> speed, then there should be an inflection point. This would be a
>>> speed where the bike does not steer.
>> But we all know that doesn't happen in the real world, and that's because
>> countersteering never stops working, it just takes less and less effort to
>> use it as you get slower and slower, and conversely you have to begin adding
>> more and more steering input at the same time.
>> The thing to remember is that both the change in countersteering effort and
>> the amount you have to turn the bars to negotiate a given tight corner
>> happen gradually over a range of speeds: there is no single point where one
>> thing starts working and the other stops. It's just that the slower you get,
>> the more steering input you have to add to the countersteering that's
>> already there.
>>
>>> It sounds logical to me. But I've never found this magic speed where
>>> the bike just goes straight.
>> For the reasons listed above, there isn't one. And a damned good thing, too!
>> Otherwise, we'd all have run our bikes straight off of the outside of the
>> road when we accidentally tried to go around a turn at that "magic speed".
>
> OMG. Another A for my FAQ. May I use it?
>
Only if you include that shafties can't countersteer.
Re: Counter Steering
In article <Rq2dncqMvZTCs5HbnZ2dnUVZ_oTinZ2d@comcast . com >,
Polarhound <polarhound@comcast . net > wrote:
> Timberwoof wrote:
> > In article <130mv3h5laiocf2@corp.supernews . com >,
> > "P.Roehling" <Pete.Roehling@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote:
> >
> >> "David Steuber" <david@david-steuber . com > wrote
> >>
> >>> So here's a question. At "low" speed, usually about 10mph or slower,
> >>> a bike steers in the direction you turn the bar. Above that speed,
> >>> you use counter steering. eg, you push forward on the left grip to
> >>> turn left.
> >> Nope. You're confusing two different things, and it's a common mistake.
> >>
> >> First thing: Countersteering. It works at *all* speeds, right down to
> >> where
> >> you fall over because you're moving too slowly to retain your balance. The
> >> reason you don't notice that it's still working at low speeds is that it
> >> takes *very* little pressure on the bars at low speeds to initiate a turn.
> >> (And initiating the turn and ending it is all that countersteering does.)
> >>
> >> If you want to prove this to yourself, simply ride straight ahead on a
> >> level
> >> parking lot at the lowest speed at which you can maintain a straight line,
> >> and then suddenly steer your bike to the right without shifting your
> >> weight..
> >>
> >> Q: What did the bike try to do?
> >>
> >> A: It tried to fall over to it's left, and that's countersteering taking
> >> effect.
> >>
> >> That's the same thing you do to initiate a turn at higher speeds: turn the
> >> front wheel slightly *away* from the direction in which you wish to turn,
> >> then return the bars to a more-or-less straight ahead attitude once you've
> >> established your lean angle.
> >>
> >> It's that lean angle combined with the bike's suspension geometry and the
> >> tire profile that cause the bike to track around the corner with the bars
> >> pointing more-or-less straight ahead.
> >>
> >> Second thing: At low speeds you can't lean the bike over far enough for
> >> the
> >> suspension geometry and tire profile to take you around a tight turn, and
> >> you'd fall over to the inside if you tried. Therefore, you have to
> >> actually
> >> steer the bike around the turn with the bars.
> >>
> >>> If steering a two wheeled vehicle is a differentiable function of
> >>> speed, then there should be an inflection point. This would be a
> >>> speed where the bike does not steer.
> >> But we all know that doesn't happen in the real world, and that's because
> >> countersteering never stops working, it just takes less and less effort to
> >> use it as you get slower and slower, and conversely you have to begin
> >> adding
> >> more and more steering input at the same time.
> >> The thing to remember is that both the change in countersteering effort
> >> and
> >> the amount you have to turn the bars to negotiate a given tight corner
> >> happen gradually over a range of speeds: there is no single point where
> >> one
> >> thing starts working and the other stops. It's just that the slower you
> >> get,
> >> the more steering input you have to add to the countersteering that's
> >> already there.
> >>
> >>> It sounds logical to me. But I've never found this magic speed where
> >>> the bike just goes straight.
> >> For the reasons listed above, there isn't one. And a damned good thing,
> >> too!
> >> Otherwise, we'd all have run our bikes straight off of the outside of the
> >> road when we accidentally tried to go around a turn at that "magic speed".
> >
> > OMG. Another A for my FAQ. May I use it?
> >
>
> Only if you include that shafties can't countersteer.
No, no, no, that's "Boxers can't wheelie."
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: * w w w .timberwoof . com /motorcycle/faq.shtml
It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you.
In article <Rq2dncqMvZTCs5HbnZ2dnUVZ_oTinZ2d@comcast . com >,
Polarhound <polarhound@comcast . net > wrote:
> Timberwoof wrote:
> > In article <130mv3h5laiocf2@corp.supernews . com >,
> > "P.Roehling" <Pete.Roehling@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote:
> >
> >> "David Steuber" <david@david-steuber . com > wrote
> >>
> >>> So here's a question. At "low" speed, usually about 10mph or slower,
> >>> a bike steers in the direction you turn the bar. Above that speed,
> >>> you use counter steering. eg, you push forward on the left grip to
> >>> turn left.
> >> Nope. You're confusing two different things, and it's a common mistake.
> >>
> >> First thing: Countersteering. It works at *all* speeds, right down to
> >> where
> >> you fall over because you're moving too slowly to retain your balance. The
> >> reason you don't notice that it's still working at low speeds is that it
> >> takes *very* little pressure on the bars at low speeds to initiate a turn.
> >> (And initiating the turn and ending it is all that countersteering does.)
> >>
> >> If you want to prove this to yourself, simply ride straight ahead on a
> >> level
> >> parking lot at the lowest speed at which you can maintain a straight line,
> >> and then suddenly steer your bike to the right without shifting your
> >> weight..
> >>
> >> Q: What did the bike try to do?
> >>
> >> A: It tried to fall over to it's left, and that's countersteering taking
> >> effect.
> >>
> >> That's the same thing you do to initiate a turn at higher speeds: turn the
> >> front wheel slightly *away* from the direction in which you wish to turn,
> >> then return the bars to a more-or-less straight ahead attitude once you've
> >> established your lean angle.
> >>
> >> It's that lean angle combined with the bike's suspension geometry and the
> >> tire profile that cause the bike to track around the corner with the bars
> >> pointing more-or-less straight ahead.
> >>
> >> Second thing: At low speeds you can't lean the bike over far enough for
> >> the
> >> suspension geometry and tire profile to take you around a tight turn, and
> >> you'd fall over to the inside if you tried. Therefore, you have to
> >> actually
> >> steer the bike around the turn with the bars.
> >>
> >>> If steering a two wheeled vehicle is a differentiable function of
> >>> speed, then there should be an inflection point. This would be a
> >>> speed where the bike does not steer.
> >> But we all know that doesn't happen in the real world, and that's because
> >> countersteering never stops working, it just takes less and less effort to
> >> use it as you get slower and slower, and conversely you have to begin
> >> adding
> >> more and more steering input at the same time.
> >> The thing to remember is that both the change in countersteering effort
> >> and
> >> the amount you have to turn the bars to negotiate a given tight corner
> >> happen gradually over a range of speeds: there is no single point where
> >> one
> >> thing starts working and the other stops. It's just that the slower you
> >> get,
> >> the more steering input you have to add to the countersteering that's
> >> already there.
> >>
> >>> It sounds logical to me. But I've never found this magic speed where
> >>> the bike just goes straight.
> >> For the reasons listed above, there isn't one. And a damned good thing,
> >> too!
> >> Otherwise, we'd all have run our bikes straight off of the outside of the
> >> road when we accidentally tried to go around a turn at that "magic speed".
> >
> > OMG. Another A for my FAQ. May I use it?
> >
>
> Only if you include that shafties can't countersteer.
No, no, no, that's "Boxers can't wheelie."
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: * w w w .timberwoof . com /motorcycle/faq.shtml
It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you.
Re: Counter Steering
"P.Roehling" <Pete.Roehling@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote in message
news:130mv3h5laiocf2@corp.supernews . com ...
<snip>
> Second thing: At low speeds you can't lean the bike over far enough for
> the suspension geometry and tire profile to take you around a tight turn,
> and you'd fall over to the inside if you tried. Therefore, you have to
> actually steer the bike around the turn with the bars.<snip>
This is not perzactly true. If you use yor rear brake in conjunction with
the clutch and the throttle, at the same time, pointing your pointy little
head in the direction you want to go, you can lean thought tight turns at
low speeds. You do steer as well, but the leaning technique is amazingly
good, as well as scary.
--
By it's very nature, my sig. makes this posting 100% on topic.
"Of course, you'll have the good taste not to mention that I posted this."
Thumper
"I don't want a pickle..."
* w w w .thumpers-roadhouse.ws
2007 H-D FXSTD Deuce
2006 BMW K1200GT
2004 H-D Road King Classic
1978 Triumph T140V Bonneville
1975 Triumph T160 Trident
1974 Norton Commando Interstate
1969 BSA R75 Red Rocket III
1962 Triumph T20 Tiger Cub
1958 BSA Super Bantam COCK
1954 Velocette MAC
"P.Roehling" <Pete.Roehling@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote in message
news:130mv3h5laiocf2@corp.supernews . com ...
<snip>
> Second thing: At low speeds you can't lean the bike over far enough for
> the suspension geometry and tire profile to take you around a tight turn,
> and you'd fall over to the inside if you tried. Therefore, you have to
> actually steer the bike around the turn with the bars.<snip>
This is not perzactly true. If you use yor rear brake in conjunction with
the clutch and the throttle, at the same time, pointing your pointy little
head in the direction you want to go, you can lean thought tight turns at
low speeds. You do steer as well, but the leaning technique is amazingly
good, as well as scary.
--
By it's very nature, my sig. makes this posting 100% on topic.
"Of course, you'll have the good taste not to mention that I posted this."
Thumper
"I don't want a pickle..."
* w w w .thumpers-roadhouse.ws
2007 H-D FXSTD Deuce
2006 BMW K1200GT
2004 H-D Road King Classic
1978 Triumph T140V Bonneville
1975 Triumph T160 Trident
1974 Norton Commando Interstate
1969 BSA R75 Red Rocket III
1962 Triumph T20 Tiger Cub
1958 BSA Super Bantam COCK
1954 Velocette MAC
Re: Counter Steering
"Thumper" <roadapple@bigfoot . com > wrote
> This is not perzactly true. If you use yor rear brake in conjunction with
> the clutch and the throttle, at the same time, pointing your pointy little
> head in the direction you want to go, you can lean thought tight turns at
> low speeds. You do steer as well, but the leaning technique is amazingly
> good, as well as scary
Now go back and re-read the part where I said that countersteering never
stopped working. It just can't usually supply *all* the turn you need at low
speeds and tight radaii. You normally have to suppliment it by turning the
bars into the corner *as well* as relying on your lean angle.
(Yes, I know all about going very quickly around very tight corners, but
we're talking about parking lot or normal U-turn speeds here, not speeds
that require a lean angle which grinds the tips of your footpegs off at 45
degrees or better. That sort of thing is usually contra-indicated for
anything but a sportbike at the track.)
"Thumper" <roadapple@bigfoot . com > wrote
> This is not perzactly true. If you use yor rear brake in conjunction with
> the clutch and the throttle, at the same time, pointing your pointy little
> head in the direction you want to go, you can lean thought tight turns at
> low speeds. You do steer as well, but the leaning technique is amazingly
> good, as well as scary
Now go back and re-read the part where I said that countersteering never
stopped working. It just can't usually supply *all* the turn you need at low
speeds and tight radaii. You normally have to suppliment it by turning the
bars into the corner *as well* as relying on your lean angle.
(Yes, I know all about going very quickly around very tight corners, but
we're talking about parking lot or normal U-turn speeds here, not speeds
that require a lean angle which grinds the tips of your footpegs off at 45
degrees or better. That sort of thing is usually contra-indicated for
anything but a sportbike at the track.)
Re: Counter Steering
On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 17:15:13 -0700, "P.Roehling"
<Pete.Roehling@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote:
>
>"Thumper" <roadapple@bigfoot . com > wrote
>
>> This is not perzactly true. If you use yor rear brake in conjunction with
>> the clutch and the throttle, at the same time, pointing your pointy little
>> head in the direction you want to go, you can lean thought tight turns at
>> low speeds. You do steer as well, but the leaning technique is amazingly
>> good, as well as scary
>
>Now go back and re-read the part where I said that countersteering never
>stopped working. It just can't usually supply *all* the turn you need at low
>speeds and tight radaii. You normally have to suppliment it by turning the
>bars into the corner *as well* as relying on your lean angle.
Actually it can, but riders often lack the confidence to drop the bike
over and power out of the lean from a standing stop. And of course,
you can turn much tighter at slow speeds doing it than turning the
bars. That's what the tight cone weave in the MSF is all about. (Or at
least , _used_ to be. Dunno if they still do it.)
--
Turby the Turbosurfer
On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 17:15:13 -0700, "P.Roehling"
<Pete.Roehling@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote:
>
>"Thumper" <roadapple@bigfoot . com > wrote
>
>> This is not perzactly true. If you use yor rear brake in conjunction with
>> the clutch and the throttle, at the same time, pointing your pointy little
>> head in the direction you want to go, you can lean thought tight turns at
>> low speeds. You do steer as well, but the leaning technique is amazingly
>> good, as well as scary
>
>Now go back and re-read the part where I said that countersteering never
>stopped working. It just can't usually supply *all* the turn you need at low
>speeds and tight radaii. You normally have to suppliment it by turning the
>bars into the corner *as well* as relying on your lean angle.
Actually it can, but riders often lack the confidence to drop the bike
over and power out of the lean from a standing stop. And of course,
you can turn much tighter at slow speeds doing it than turning the
bars. That's what the tight cone weave in the MSF is all about. (Or at
least , _used_ to be. Dunno if they still do it.)
--
Turby the Turbosurfer
Re: Counter Steering
On Mar 29, 12:44 am, "P.Roehling" <Pete.Roehl...@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote:
> "David Steuber" <d...@david-steuber . com > wrote
> > It sounds logical to me. But I've never found this magic speed where
> > the bike just goes straight.
>
> For the reasons listed above, there isn't one. And a damned good thing, too!
> Otherwise, we'd all have run our bikes straight off of the outside of the
> road when we accidentally tried to go around a turn at that "magic speed".
Wait a month or two for the first warm weather and you'll
see a whole lot of people taking corners at this magic speed.
On Mar 29, 12:44 am, "P.Roehling" <Pete.Roehl...@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote:
> "David Steuber" <d...@david-steuber . com > wrote
> > It sounds logical to me. But I've never found this magic speed where
> > the bike just goes straight.
>
> For the reasons listed above, there isn't one. And a damned good thing, too!
> Otherwise, we'd all have run our bikes straight off of the outside of the
> road when we accidentally tried to go around a turn at that "magic speed".
Wait a month or two for the first warm weather and you'll
see a whole lot of people taking corners at this magic speed.
Re: Counter Steering
On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:26:40 -0700, Rob Kleinschmidt wrote:
> On Mar 29, 12:44 am, "P.Roehling" <Pete.Roehl...@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote:
>> "David Steuber" <d...@david-steuber . com > wrote
>
>> > It sounds logical to me. But I've never found this magic speed where
>> > the bike just goes straight.
>>
>> For the reasons listed above, there isn't one. And a damned good thing,
>> too! Otherwise, we'd all have run our bikes straight off of the outside
>> of the road when we accidentally tried to go around a turn at that
>> "magic speed".
>
> Wait a month or two for the first warm weather and you'll see a whole
> lot of people taking corners at this magic speed.
You mean like this?
* w w w .youtube . com /watch?v=-ZFpIpaFMlc
- Nate >>
--
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds,
the pessimist fears this is true."
On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:26:40 -0700, Rob Kleinschmidt wrote:
> On Mar 29, 12:44 am, "P.Roehling" <Pete.Roehl...@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote:
>> "David Steuber" <d...@david-steuber . com > wrote
>
>> > It sounds logical to me. But I've never found this magic speed where
>> > the bike just goes straight.
>>
>> For the reasons listed above, there isn't one. And a damned good thing,
>> too! Otherwise, we'd all have run our bikes straight off of the outside
>> of the road when we accidentally tried to go around a turn at that
>> "magic speed".
>
> Wait a month or two for the first warm weather and you'll see a whole
> lot of people taking corners at this magic speed.
You mean like this?
* w w w .youtube . com /watch?v=-ZFpIpaFMlc
- Nate >>
--
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds,
the pessimist fears this is true."
Re: Counter Steering
On Mar 29, 3:45 pm, Nate Bargmann
<n0nb.DO.NOT.S...@ME . net worksplus . net > wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:26:40 -0700, Rob Kleinschmidt wrote:
> > On Mar 29, 12:44 am, "P.Roehling" <Pete.Roehl...@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote:
> >> "David Steuber" <d...@david-steuber . com > wrote
>
> >> > It sounds logical to me. But I've never found this magic speed where
> >> > the bike just goes straight.
>
> >> For the reasons listed above, there isn't one. And a damned good thing,
> >> too! Otherwise, we'd all have run our bikes straight off of the outside
> >> of the road when we accidentally tried to go around a turn at that
> >> "magic speed".
>
> > Wait a month or two for the first warm weather and you'll see a whole
> > lot of people taking corners at this magic speed.
>
> You mean like this?
>
> * w w w .youtube . com /watch?v=-ZFpIpaFMlc
Exactly. "magic speed" being any speed faster
than Winebago cornering speeds.
On Mar 29, 3:45 pm, Nate Bargmann
<n0nb.DO.NOT.S...@ME . net worksplus . net > wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:26:40 -0700, Rob Kleinschmidt wrote:
> > On Mar 29, 12:44 am, "P.Roehling" <Pete.Roehl...@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote:
> >> "David Steuber" <d...@david-steuber . com > wrote
>
> >> > It sounds logical to me. But I've never found this magic speed where
> >> > the bike just goes straight.
>
> >> For the reasons listed above, there isn't one. And a damned good thing,
> >> too! Otherwise, we'd all have run our bikes straight off of the outside
> >> of the road when we accidentally tried to go around a turn at that
> >> "magic speed".
>
> > Wait a month or two for the first warm weather and you'll see a whole
> > lot of people taking corners at this magic speed.
>
> You mean like this?
>
> * w w w .youtube . com /watch?v=-ZFpIpaFMlc
Exactly. "magic speed" being any speed faster
than Winebago cornering speeds.
Re: Counter Steering
"Rob Kleinschmidt" <Rkleinsch1216128@aol . com > wrote in message
news:1175210800.203682.24910@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups . com ...
> On Mar 29, 12:44 am, "P.Roehling" <Pete.Roehl...@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote:
>> "David Steuber" <d...@david-steuber . com > wrote
>
>> > It sounds logical to me. But I've never found this magic speed where
>> > the bike just goes straight.
>>
>> For the reasons listed above, there isn't one. And a damned good thing,
>> too!
>> Otherwise, we'd all have run our bikes straight off of the outside of the
>> road when we accidentally tried to go around a turn at that "magic
>> speed".
>
> Wait a month or two for the first warm weather and you'll
> see a whole lot of people taking corners at this magic speed.
Wait a month or two? How about right now. It was 80 degrees here yesterday.
It's breeding season for the squid here.
--
By it's very nature, my sig. makes this posting 100% on topic.
"Of course, you'll have the good taste not to mention that I posted this."
Thumper
"I don't want a pickle..."
* w w w .thumpers-roadhouse.ws
2007 H-D FXSTD Deuce
2006 BMW K1200GT
2004 H-D Road King Classic
1978 Triumph T140V Bonneville
1975 Triumph T160 Trident
1974 Norton Commando Interstate
1969 BSA R75 Red Rocket III
1962 Triumph T20 Tiger Cub
1958 BSA Super Bantam COCK
1954 Velocette MAC
"Rob Kleinschmidt" <Rkleinsch1216128@aol . com > wrote in message
news:1175210800.203682.24910@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups . com ...
> On Mar 29, 12:44 am, "P.Roehling" <Pete.Roehl...@CUTOUTeee.org> wrote:
>> "David Steuber" <d...@david-steuber . com > wrote
>
>> > It sounds logical to me. But I've never found this magic speed where
>> > the bike just goes straight.
>>
>> For the reasons listed above, there isn't one. And a damned good thing,
>> too!
>> Otherwise, we'd all have run our bikes straight off of the outside of the
>> road when we accidentally tried to go around a turn at that "magic
>> speed".
>
> Wait a month or two for the first warm weather and you'll
> see a whole lot of people taking corners at this magic speed.
Wait a month or two? How about right now. It was 80 degrees here yesterday.
It's breeding season for the squid here.
--
By it's very nature, my sig. makes this posting 100% on topic.
"Of course, you'll have the good taste not to mention that I posted this."
Thumper
"I don't want a pickle..."
* w w w .thumpers-roadhouse.ws
2007 H-D FXSTD Deuce
2006 BMW K1200GT
2004 H-D Road King Classic
1978 Triumph T140V Bonneville
1975 Triumph T160 Trident
1974 Norton Commando Interstate
1969 BSA R75 Red Rocket III
1962 Triumph T20 Tiger Cub
1958 BSA Super Bantam COCK
1954 Velocette MAC
