Don't you hate when...

an easy, twenty minutes jobs turns into a 4 hour nightmare?

Friday night. I wasn't in the mood for anything but staying home and
playing MTX (neat MX game for PC). Well, until PC hang and I was left
with nothing to do. Well, I thought, I could use the spare time to
replace the rear brake pads on my bike, afterall, I have the pads
already and bike needed the pad change.

Easy job, just remove wheel, pull old pads, push brake piston back
into caliper, install new pads and re-mount wheel. How fast can you do
that? 20 minutes? Less? What if the <insert expletive here> brake
piston refuses to go into caliper?

I ended up removing piston (complete caliper teardown), cleaning
everything and replacing fluid. Good thing I have a large
syringe... :-)

Now I have great brakes that should last - at least - next sunday
ride. It's raining cats and dogs since friday night. I am sure the
quicksand at the jar trail had water & time enough to be knee deep. I
invited a friend who rides for three years, but is slooooow...
Somewhat I enjoy riding with these types.

-- Tiago

On May 12, 12:36 pm, Tiago Rocha <diariodastril...@gmail.com> wrote:
> an easy, twenty minutes jobs turns into a 4 hour nightmare?

Yes. Yes I do. Seems to happen far too frequently.

Craig

On Mon, 12 May 2008 18:40:05 -0700 (PDT), Craig
<googlegroupmail@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On May 12, 12:36 pm, Tiago Rocha <diariodastril...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> an easy, twenty minutes jobs turns into a 4 hour nightmare?
>
>Yes. Yes I do. Seems to happen far too frequently.

Quick question though:
I just pull the calipers off to do brakes. Why did you have to
pull the wheel off?


----
Team NCS Off Road
----

On May 12, 11:24 pm, scrape <scrapeNOTHA...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 12 May 2008 18:40:05 -0700 (PDT), Craig
>
> <googlegroupm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On May 12, 12:36 pm, Tiago Rocha <diariodastril...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> an easy, twenty minutes jobs turns into a 4 hour nightmare?
>
> >Yes. Yes I do. Seems to happen far too frequently.
>
> Quick question though:
> I just pull the calipers off to do brakes. Why did you have to
> pull the wheel off?

I am new to this rear disk brake thing. I could not figure out a way
to remove/insert pads with the disk between then. The front caliper
have two bolts that easily remove them from the fork, but there aren't
screws holding the rear... How do you do it?

-- Tiago

***************************************************
>On Tue, 13 May 2008 03:52:39 -0700 (PDT), Tiago Rocha <diariodastrilhas@gmail.com> wrote:

>On May 12, 11:24 pm, scrape <scrapeNOTHA...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 May 2008 18:40:05 -0700 (PDT), Craig
>>
>> <googlegroupm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >On May 12, 12:36 pm, Tiago Rocha <diariodastril...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> an easy, twenty minutes jobs turns into a 4 hour nightmare?
>>
>> >Yes. Yes I do. Seems to happen far too frequently.
>>
>> Quick question though:
>> I just pull the calipers off to do brakes. Why did you have to
>> pull the wheel off?
>
>I am new to this rear disk brake thing. I could not figure out a way
>to remove/insert pads with the disk between then. The front caliper
>have two bolts that easily remove them from the fork, but there aren't
>screws holding the rear... How do you do it?
>
>-- Tiago
********************************************


Tiago,
On my disk brakes (both front and rear), I just pull/unscrew the pin
that goes through the pads, and then pull rear of the individual pads
down and out of the caliper. (Well, I first push the pistons back
inside the caliper to make room for the replacement pads.)
I do the reverse to install the new pads. (I also put neverseize on
the threads of the brake pins.)








Wudsracer/Jim Cook
Smackover Racing
'06 Gas Gas DE300
'82 Husqvarna XC250
Team LAGNAF

On May 14, 3:55 pm, Wudsracer <babba...@Lucy.com> wrote:
> ***************************************************
>
>
>
> >On Tue, 13 May 2008 03:52:39 -0700 (PDT), Tiago Rocha <diariodastril...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On May 12, 11:24 pm, scrape <scrapeNOTHA...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 12 May 2008 18:40:05 -0700 (PDT), Craig
>
> >> <googlegroupm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >On May 12, 12:36 pm, Tiago Rocha <diariodastril...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> an easy, twenty minutes jobs turns into a 4 hour nightmare?
>
> >> >Yes. Yes I do. Seems to happen far too frequently.
>
> >> Quick question though:
> >> I just pull the calipers off to do brakes. Why did you have to
> >> pull the wheel off?
>
> >I am new to this rear disk brake thing. I could not figure out a way
> >to remove/insert pads with the disk between then. The front caliper
> >have two bolts that easily remove them from the fork, but there aren't
> >screws holding the rear... How do you do it?
>
> >-- Tiago
>
> ********************************************
>
> Tiago,
> On my disk brakes (both front and rear), I just pull/unscrew the pin
> that goes through the pads, and then pull rear of the individual pads
> down and out of the caliper. (Well, I first push the pistons back
> inside the caliper to make room for the replacement pads.)
> I do the reverse to install the new pads. (I also put neverseize on
> the threads of the brake pins.)
>
> Wudsracer/Jim Cook
> Smackover Racing
> '06 Gas Gas DE300
> '82 Husqvarna XC250
> Team LAGNAF



Mine are just like that, except I have to unscrew a plug that looks
like a screw, then I can unscrew the pin.

Dave

On May 14, 5:13 pm, XR650L_Dave <spamTHIS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On May 14, 3:55 pm, Wudsracer <babba...@Lucy.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > ***************************************************
>
> > >On Tue, 13 May 2008 03:52:39 -0700 (PDT), Tiago Rocha <diariodastril...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >On May 12, 11:24 pm, scrape <scrapeNOTHA...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> > >> On Mon, 12 May 2008 18:40:05 -0700 (PDT), Craig
>
> > >> <googlegroupm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> >On May 12, 12:36 pm, Tiago Rocha <diariodastril...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> an easy, twenty minutes jobs turns into a 4 hour nightmare?
>
> > >> >Yes. Yes I do. Seems to happen far too frequently.
>
> > >> Quick question though:
> > >> I just pull the calipers off to do brakes. Why did you have to
> > >> pull the wheel off?
>
> > >I am new to this rear disk brake thing. I could not figure out a way
> > >to remove/insert pads with the disk between then. The front caliper
> > >have two bolts that easily remove them from the fork, but there aren't
> > >screws holding the rear... How do you do it?
>
> > >-- Tiago
>
> > ********************************************
>
> > Tiago,
> > On my disk brakes (both front and rear), I just pull/unscrew the pin
> > that goes through the pads, and then pull rear of the individual pads
> > down and out of the caliper. (Well, I first push the pistons back
> > inside the caliper to make room for the replacement pads.)
> > I do the reverse to install the new pads. (I also put neverseize on
> > the threads of the brake pins.)
>
> > Wudsracer/Jim Cook
> > Smackover Racing
> > '06 Gas Gas DE300
> > '82 Husqvarna XC250
> > Team LAGNAF
>
> Mine are just like that, except I have to unscrew a plug that looks
> like a screw, then I can unscrew the pin.
>
> Dave

On May 14, 5:30 pm, Tiago Rocha <diariodastril...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 14, 5:13 pm, XR650L_Dave <spamTHIS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On May 14, 3:55 pm, Wudsracer <babba...@Lucy.com> wrote:
>
> > > ***************************************************
>
> > > >On Tue, 13 May 2008 03:52:39 -0700 (PDT), Tiago Rocha <diariodastril...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >On May 12, 11:24 pm, scrape <scrapeNOTHA...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> > > >> On Mon, 12 May 2008 18:40:05 -0700 (PDT), Craig
>
> > > >> <googlegroupm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >> >On May 12, 12:36 pm, Tiago Rocha <diariodastril...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> >> an easy, twenty minutes jobs turns into a 4 hour nightmare?
>
> > > >> >Yes. Yes I do. Seems to happen far too frequently.
>
> > > >> Quick question though:
> > > >> I just pull the calipers off to do brakes. Why did you have to
> > > >> pull the wheel off?
>
> > > >I am new to this rear disk brake thing. I could not figure out a way
> > > >to remove/insert pads with the disk between then. The front caliper
> > > >have two bolts that easily remove them from the fork, but there aren't
> > > >screws holding the rear... How do you do it?
>
> > > >-- Tiago
>
> > > ********************************************
>
> > > Tiago,
> > > On my disk brakes (both front and rear), I just pull/unscrew the pin
> > > that goes through the pads, and then pull rear of the individual pads
> > > down and out of the caliper. (Well, I first push the pistons back
> > > inside the caliper to make room for the replacement pads.)
> > > I do the reverse to install the new pads. (I also put neverseize on
> > > the threads of the brake pins.)
>
> > > Wudsracer/Jim Cook
> > > Smackover Racing
> > > '06 Gas Gas DE300
> > > '82 Husqvarna XC250
> > > Team LAGNAF
>
> > Mine are just like that, except I have to unscrew a plug that looks
> > like a screw, then I can unscrew the pin.
>
> > Dave

<google ate my previous reply>

interesting, I might try that just for kicks.

Doesn't those little metal tabs that prevents the worn out pad to fall
off (don't ask how I found that, luckily it wasn't on my bike, but
unfortunatelly it had to be far away into the woods) interfere with
the pad removal? I like to remove them and clean the caliper with
contact cleaner and then I blast WD40 all over it before reinstalling
the metal tabs and the new pads.

Also, how to you push the piston back? With the old pad? Squeezing a
big screwdriver between disk and pad? Couldn't that damage the disk?
Because no matter how worn, the old pads will be very close to the
disk...

That's how I do:
I remove the caliper from fork (wheel) and pry apart the old pads with
two really big screwdrivers until the piston goes all way in inside
the "cylinder" on the caliper.

I like to fill the gap between the pad pin (allen head) and the plug
that looks like a screw with bearing grease. I had *big* trouble once
because of overtightening the pad pin and now I gently seat the pin
(1/4 turn after being able to turn by hand) and fill the gap with
grease - poor man's neverseize. I've been lucky for the last 5 years
with this method.

-- Tiago

Hi Tiago!

> Doesn't those little metal tabs that prevents the worn out pad to fall
> off

I'm unsure about which tabs you're talking. Those you can take out (two per
caliper on my KTM and Yam) just seem to put some load on the brake pads to
keep them from rattling (and wearing out the aluminum surface of the
caliper that comes underneath). In principle, you might be able to ride
without them. Pads usually fall out (dangling from the pin) when they are
worn beyond limits and there's too much space between rotor and the slot in
the caliper.

> I like to remove them and clean the caliper with
> contact cleaner and then I blast WD40 all over it before reinstalling
> the metal tabs and the new pads.

Which is an excellent idea, given the location/condition you're riding in.
Make sure to also clean the piston(s) _before_ pushing them back. That will
involv either removing the wheel or the caliper. Then you could work the
piston out and in a few times to mobilize the seals again a bit.

> Also, how to you push the piston back? With the old pad?

Only so far that I can pull the pads. Then I usually use a piece of sheet
metal (if caliper&wheel still installed) and some elbow grease. If there's
cleaning to do, I use a pair of screw clamps that I have "customized" with
an angle grinder.

> Squeezing a
> big screwdriver between disk and pad? Couldn't that damage the disk?

If you use the flat end, it might work out. But in that case you have no
chance to clean except spraying brake cleaner all over the setup.

> I remove the caliper from fork (wheel)

I rather remove the wheel. Caliper screws go into aluminum threads, that's
nothing I want to loosen every time I do a brake job.

> and pry apart the old pads with
> two really big screwdrivers until the piston goes all way in inside
> the "cylinder" on the caliper.

Without cleaning? That's possibly the reason why there's the need to use so
much force...

> I like to fill the gap between the pad pin (allen head) and the plug
> that looks like a screw with bearing grease.

Good idea! My KTM has an open design where you need to remove a safty clip
and then punch out the bolt.



Cheers,
Volker

--
@: I N F O at B A R T H E L D dot N E T
3W: www.bartheld.net

On May 15, 5:30 am, Volker Bartheld <dr_vers...@freenet.de> wrote:
> Hi Tiago!
>
> > Doesn't those little metal tabs that prevents the worn out pad to fall
> > off
>
> I'm unsure about which tabs you're talking. Those you can take out (two per
> caliper on my KTM and Yam) just seem to put some load on the brake pads to
> keep them from rattling (and wearing out the aluminum surface of the
> caliper that comes underneath). In principle, you might be able to ride
> without them. Pads usually fall out (dangling from the pin) when they are
> worn beyond limits and there's too much space between rotor and the slot in
> the caliper.

It might have been too worn out indeed, but on hondas, the tab that is
on the other side from the pin acts like a guide, it might be
difficult to a pad to fall off with that tab on place, even if the pad
is worn out. During winter you can leave home with brand new pads and
wear them completely out in less than half riding day.


> I rather remove the wheel. Caliper screws go into aluminum threads, that's
> nothing I want to loosen every time I do a brake job.
>
> > and pry apart the old pads with
> > two really big screwdrivers until the piston goes all way in inside
> > the "cylinder" on the caliper.
>
> Without cleaning? That's possibly the reason why there's the need to use so
> much force...

The routine is like this on front brake: remove screw plug, loosen
pin, remove caliper, remove pin, pads and metal tabs, scrub the dirt
off, spray some cleaner clean the piston with a rag, lots of WD40,
reinstall old pads w/o pin, squeeze them open with two really big
screwdrivers, install tabs, new pads, pin, put caliper back, tighten
1/4 turn the pin, fill the pin allen head with grease and put the
screw plug. Done. Once a year, change fluid... Often I disassemble
caliper to lube the moving parts.

Never had problems with that before. Well... once I had... But that
was one time since I got my first bike in 97. Never had to remove a
brake piston on any of my bikes except that time. Now I install a
spiffy new rear disk brake and the first time I'm changing pads it's a
nightmare. I don't remember it being so difficult on the RM, but I
didn't rode that bike when I knew there would be lots of mud.

The way I see it, I feel that I should remove the rear wheel to change
pads. Repacking the bearings with fresh grease is a good idea.

-- Tiago

Hi!

On Thu, 15 May 2008 04:18:14 -0700 (PDT), Tiago Rocha wrote:
> The routine is like this on front brake: remove screw plug, loosen
> pin, remove caliper, remove pin, pads and metal tabs, scrub the dirt
> off, spray some cleaner clean the piston with a rag, lots of WD40,
> reinstall old pads w/o pin, squeeze them open with two really big
> screwdrivers, install tabs, new pads, pin, put caliper back, tighten
> 1/4 turn the pin, fill the pin allen head with grease and put the
> screw plug. Done. Once a year, change fluid... Often I disassemble
> caliper to lube the moving parts.

Excellent! That's close to a 100%-solution and probably more than I usually
do. Last time I even mounted old pads with a new disc, found them to be not
plain anymore and "pimped" them with a file until I was satisfied. Hey -
those pad still had 75% and were sinter-compound, too expensive to throw
away. The disc cost me 65 bucks (EUR, that is) which is about double the
price of a decent set of pads (Lucas).

> Never had to remove a
> brake piston on any of my bikes except that time.

Same with me. Except when I pulled the brakes while having the wheel
removed. *Bummer*

> Now I install a
> spiffy new rear disk brake and the first time I'm changing pads it's a
> nightmare.

Hmmm. Probably because the disk is thicker and therefore it's harder to
slide the pads in? With my KTM, especially a rear brake service (thicker
disc compared to front and also thicker pads) is a bit finicky.

> The way I see it, I feel that I should remove the rear wheel to change
> pads. Repacking the bearings with fresh grease is a good idea.

Exactly. The best choice!

Volker

--
@: I N F O at B A R T H E L D dot N E T
3W: www.bartheld.net

On May 15, 9:50 am, Volker Bartheld <dr_vers...@freenet.de> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> On Thu, 15 May 2008 04:18:14 -0700 (PDT), Tiago Rocha wrote:
> > The routine is like this on front brake: remove screw plug, loosen
> > pin, remove caliper, remove pin, pads and metal tabs, scrub the dirt
> > off, spray some cleaner clean the piston with a rag, lots of WD40,
> > reinstall old pads w/o pin, squeeze them open with two really big
> > screwdrivers, install tabs, new pads, pin, put caliper back, tighten
> > 1/4 turn the pin, fill the pin allen head with grease and put the
> > screw plug. Done. Once a year, change fluid... Often I disassemble
> > caliper to lube the moving parts.
>
> Excellent! That's close to a 100%-solution and probably more than I usually
> do. Last time I even mounted old pads with a new disc, found them to be not
> plain anymore and "pimped" them with a file until I was satisfied. Hey -
> those pad still had 75% and were sinter-compound, too expensive to throw
> away. The disc cost me 65 bucks (EUR, that is) which is about double the
> price of a decent set of pads (Lucas).

Sometimes I dream about living in Europe. Spain, Italy, even countries
at the northern side like Austria and Germany. When that happens, I
look for any european based webstore and check the prices. The dream
fades right away! :-)

There is a little shop down at Sao Paulo that makes great quality
reasonably priced sintered pads. They cost less than 2 EUR more than
the metallic and about 1 EUR more than the organic. Go figure! Around
here, the better the pads the cheaper they are, relatively speaking.
But I don't even quote the price of Nissin (OEM) pads...

Rear disk on my bike was made at a machine shop out of an iron sheet.
It wasn't true and I had the guy redo the service. I wish I had take
the scorpion out of my pocket and bought an OEM disk that would
probably cost me around those 65EUR. I think I paid less than 30EUR
for my iron sheet disks.

>
> > Never had to remove a
> > brake piston on any of my bikes except that time.
>
> Same with me. Except when I pulled the brakes while having the wheel
> removed. *Bummer*
>
> > Now I install a
> > spiffy new rear disk brake and the first time I'm changing pads it's a
> > nightmare.
>
> Hmmm. Probably because the disk is thicker and therefore it's harder to
> slide the pads in? With my KTM, especially a rear brake service (thicker
> disc compared to front and also thicker pads) is a bit finicky.

I went to garage last night to see the pads. Well, imo, replacing rear
pads w/o removing wheel looks like those jobs were being lazy makes
you work way more than if you do it "right".

dirt bikes are fun even when I'm not riding them. I hope that all my
riding buddies confirm next sunday's ride. One of my friends is
unemployed and thinking about selling his 89 XLX350R. I am sure, I
could bet one year salary that if he does that he'll never buy another
because he'll never afford another bike. He says he can't stand asking
an allowance to the wife to pay for gas and go riding and his cam
chain started ticking and compression is getting real low... Sad. I'll
miss him on the trails. I wish I could find a job for him.


-- Tiago

Hi!

On Thu, 15 May 2008 06:57:14 -0700 (PDT), Tiago Rocha wrote:
> One of my friends is
> unemployed and thinking about selling his 89 XLX350R. I am sure, I
> could bet one year salary that if he does that he'll never buy another
> because he'll never afford another bike. He says he can't stand asking
> an allowance to the wife to pay for gas and go riding and his cam
> chain started ticking and compression is getting real low... Sad. I'll
> miss him on the trails. I wish I could find a job for him.

If he's willing to code an Explorer-like splitter/tree-window data analysis
and visualization project in C++/MFC and doesn't mind wading through tons
of old source-code with a narrow deadline, he can have mine - for 50 grand
a year. I think, I'm starting to get fed up with the whole
IT/consulting/SW-dev business and want to do something entirely new that is
a bit more honest than the bullshit I've been at for the last 10 years or
so. Call it burn-out syndrome or midlife-crisis - whatever suits you best.
I call it boredom and wasting my precious lifetime with stuff you are never
rewarded for by customers.

Ciao,
V.

--
@: I N F O at B A R T H E L D dot N E T
3W: www.bartheld.net

On May 16, 6:41 am, Volker Bartheld <dr_vers...@freenet.de> wrote:
> Hi!

You forgot to mention management that changes their minds every other
day... :-)

IT is a tough area to work in! I work in IT, but I graduated in
economics, just in case I need another career. I even started a very
small plain glass (windows, doors, table tops) business with a friend
but that did not worked out. This friend kept on and now makes more
money than I. And he never finished high school! Something is really
wrong here.

I think I convinced my unemployed friend not to sell the bike.
Instead, I advised him not to pay any debt he has with big money
sucking financing companies and start buying everything through his
wife credit. 5 years down the road and he's clean again with the tax
collecting government agency....


-- Tiago

Craig wrote:

> On May 12, 12:36 pm, Tiago Rocha <diariodastril...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> an easy, twenty minutes jobs turns into a 4 hour nightmare?
>
> Yes. Yes I do. Seems to happen far too frequently.

I've never had any other kind, except for the 20-minute jobs that turn
into 8-hour nightmares.

--
Cheers,
Bev
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
"I've seen a look in dogs' eyes, a quickly vanishing look
of amazed contempt, and I am convinced that basically dogs
think humans are nuts." -- John Steinbeck