Soft Brakes - A Feature ???

Soft Brakes - A Feature ???

To early for the hard stuff, but I won't notice if you want to slip a
little of the good whiskey off the top shelf into your morning coffee.

Re: 88ci 2003 FLTR-I
Yes, its a twinkie.

My wife hasn't been riding her Roadglide so I asked her about it. She
had bought it with a sidecar so she could ride and take the kids. Now
she hates the side car.

Cool I thought. With a variety of electric, air, and ratcheeting
scalpels I proceeded to perform a lumpectomy on that cancerous
growth. What a pain. Long story short I got the thing removed, bled
the back brakes, put in a new battery and took it for a ride.

The front brakes seemed awfully soft. Now this is a bike with only 5K
miles on it. (I said she had not been riding it) The last time she
took it in for service I had told the shop that the front brakes were
soft. I can squeeze the front brake lever all the way down so it
touches the throttle sleeve.

I told Patti I didn't want her riding it until I got that figured
out. She told me that the local official Harley shop had said the
brakes were supposed to be that way. Some kind of new easy brake
design.

WHAT?!? Is this true? If so I sure don't like it. If not I'm really
pissed because she took it in for service the last time just before
putting in a 600+ mile weekend pushing sidecar with children. I had
gone in with her and specifically told the shop then the brakes didn't
feel right.

It feels to me like a bike that has too small a master cylinder. I
bled out both slaves last night, and I noticed two things. Even after
bleeding I had to pump up the brakes to get some resistance (I did get
more than before
bleeding) and even then it seemed to not move enough fluid. By
squeezing the brake lever all the way down it does seem to finally
lock up the wheel, but it doesn't seem to much braking force until you
get there. That makes
the front brakes slow to respond and touchy to modulate in my opinion.
Maybe I'm just spoiled since I've been riding something else the last
few years, but I don't remember any of my previous Harleys having soft
spongy brakes like that as being normal. There was always something
wrong if the brakes didn't feel right. The front pads are about half
worn. Maybe a little less.

Well, I've got more coffee on for any who are interested, and if you
want some more... HEY! Who drank all my good whiskey. Oh, well.
There's more in the cupboard if you have some good knowledge to pass
on.

Bob La Londe
www .geocities,com /onebikenut

Re: Soft Brakes - A Feature ???

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:40:20 -0700 (PDT), Bob La Londe
<alarm_wizard@hotmail,com > wrote:


>The front brakes seemed awfully soft. Now this is a bike with only 5K
>miles on it. (I said she had not been riding it) The last time she
>took it in for service I had told the shop that the front brakes were
>soft. I can squeeze the front brake lever all the way down so it
>touches the throttle sleeve.
>
>I told Patti I didn't want her riding it until I got that figured
>out. She told me that the local official Harley shop had said the
>brakes were supposed to be that way. Some kind of new easy brake
>design.
>
>WHAT?!? Is this true? If so I sure don't like it.

Stealership Translation: We don't understand the problem, care about
customer service, or have anyone that knows a wrench from a hammer, so your
problem isn't a problem. "It's a feature"!

No, brakes aren't supposed to be soft. Try flushing the system
completely with new brake fluid. Contamination can make 'em soft. If that
doesn't work, & you can't find any leaks, you might want to rebuild the master
cylinder.
-

Jinks ('86FXRS, '07 FLTR)
#64
Remember, "No good deed goes unpunished"

Re: Soft Brakes - A Feature ???

Bob La Londe wrote:

> Re: 88ci 2003 FLTR-I
> Yes, its a twinkie.

> The front brakes seemed awfully soft. Now this is a bike with only 5K
> miles on it. (I said she had not been riding it) The last time she
> took it in for service I had told the shop that the front brakes were
> soft. I can squeeze the front brake lever all the way down so it
> touches the throttle sleeve.
>
> I told Patti I didn't want her riding it until I got that figured
> out. She told me that the local official Harley shop had said the
> brakes were supposed to be that way. Some kind of new easy brake
> design.

The operative phrase here is 'Bullshit!' Harley brakes are not state of
the art by any means (well, maybe the brand new Brembos are, but not
2003 brakes for certain) but they should be better than Flintstone brakes.

I'd suggest that either:
they aren't completely bled (the dual fronts are often recalcitrant
little dog-fuckers to get bled completely)

the brake fluid is contaminated with water

your brake lines are shit (the rubber ones get spongier with age and
aren't all that rigid to begin with under the best of circumstances).


I'd further suggest attacking the problem in this order:

rebleed the brakes, using a Mity Vac if you have one to force the fluid
from the bottom up.

if that doesn't work drain, flush, and refill the brakes with new fluid
and then guess what? Right. Bleed 'em again.

if you want the best brakes you're going to get with stock master
cylinder, calipers, and pads, throw on a set of braided steel lines
before you refill the brakes with new fluid. You'll hate what a pain in
the ass bleeding those will be, but the compensation of having brake
lines that don't balloon when you actually try to use them is usually
enough compensation for the additional aggravation.
--

Spunky Hussein Tuna
radical ChristoIslamic fundamentalist Pescasupremacist...
but not at all bitter

Re: Soft Brakes - A Feature ???

"Spunky Hussein Tuna" <spunkyhusseintuna@earthlink,net > wrote in message
news:kKWdnWp9HbgImo_VnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@earthlink,com ...
> Bob La Londe wrote:
>
>> Re: 88ci 2003 FLTR-I
>> Yes, its a twinkie.
>
>> The front brakes seemed awfully soft. Now this is a bike with only 5K
>> miles on it. (I said she had not been riding it) The last time she
>> took it in for service I had told the shop that the front brakes were
>> soft. I can squeeze the front brake lever all the way down so it
>> touches the throttle sleeve.
>>
>> I told Patti I didn't want her riding it until I got that figured
>> out. She told me that the local official Harley shop had said the
>> brakes were supposed to be that way. Some kind of new easy brake
>> design.
>
> The operative phrase here is 'Bullshit!' Harley brakes are not state of
> the art by any means (well, maybe the brand new Brembos are, but not 2003
> brakes for certain) but they should be better than Flintstone brakes.
>
> I'd suggest that either:
> they aren't completely bled (the dual fronts are often recalcitrant little
> dog-fuckers to get bled completely)
>
> the brake fluid is contaminated with water
>
> your brake lines are shit

That is possible I can feel things moving like swelling brake lines before
anythig happens.

> (the rubber ones get spongier with age and aren't all that rigid to begin
> with under the best of circumstances).
>
>
> I'd further suggest attacking the problem in this order:
>
> rebleed the brakes, using a Mity Vac if you have one to force the fluid
> from the bottom up.

I've used a Mity Vac to pull all of the brake fluid out of a system to flush
before, but how do you use it to push fluid up into the brake system?

> if that doesn't work drain, flush, and refill the brakes with new fluid
> and then guess what? Right. Bleed 'em again.

Yeah, I reckon a compelte flush is in order. The Dot 5 that was in it is
yellow, and the dot 5 in the bottle is purple. I wonder if somebody filled
them originally with the wrong fluid at assembly.

> if you want the best brakes you're going to get with stock master
> cylinder, calipers, and pads, throw on a set of braided steel lines before
> you refill the brakes with new fluid. You'll hate what a pain in the ass
> bleeding those will be, but the compensation of having brake lines that
> don't balloon when you actually try to use them is usually enough
> compensation for the additional aggravation.

Yeah, been there done that. Went to braided everything on the wife's old
Fatboy. Sure was nice when all was done though. I think I'll suggest that
to Patti. She likes anything that looks custom anyway.

Thanks.

Re: Soft Brakes - A Feature ???

Bob La Londe wrote:

> I've used a Mity Vac to pull all of the brake fluid out of a system to flush
> before, but how do you use it to push fluid up into the brake system?

Now that I think about it, it wasn't a MityVac I used to push the fluid
up from the bottom, it was a thingy that looked like a huge plastic
syringe, almost turkey baster size. Filled the syringe body with brake
fluid, used the same sort of plastic tubing the MityVac uses to connect
the end of the syringe to the bleeder valve in the farthest caliper,
opened the bleeder valve and shot the fluid in. Did the same on the
other caliper and then kept on pumping new fluid in until the master
cylinder was full, then pumped the brakes a bit until the bubbles were
out.

I don't recall for certain but I think I remember that you can switch
the lines on a MityVac around so that instead of sucking through the
reservoir cup you can pressurize it and pull fluid from the bottom of
the reservoir rather than dumping into the top of it. I'd have to dig
mine out to be sure and it's all gucky with brake fluid and buried
somewhere in the garage. IIRC, the pressure port on the MityVac is
vertical and on the other side of the gauge from the vacuum port, which
is horizontal.

I could easily be wrong, though. Happens all the time.

--

Spunky Hussein Tuna
radical ChristoIslamic fundamentalist Pescasupremacist...
but not at all bitter

Re: Soft Brakes - A Feature ???

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:58:00 -0400, Spunky Hussein Tuna
<spunkyhusseintuna@earthlink,net > wrote:

>Bob La Londe wrote:
>
>> I've used a Mity Vac to pull all of the brake fluid out of a system to flush
>> before, but how do you use it to push fluid up into the brake system?
>
>Now that I think about it, it wasn't a MityVac I used to push the fluid
>up from the bottom, it was a thingy that looked like a huge plastic
>syringe, almost turkey baster size. Filled the syringe body with brake
>fluid, used the same sort of plastic tubing the MityVac uses to connect
>the end of the syringe to the bleeder valve in the farthest caliper,
>opened the bleeder valve and shot the fluid in. Did the same on the
>other caliper and then kept on pumping new fluid in until the master
>cylinder was full, then pumped the brakes a bit until the bubbles were
>out.
>
>I don't recall for certain but I think I remember that you can switch
>the lines on a MityVac around so that instead of sucking through the
>reservoir cup you can pressurize it and pull fluid from the bottom of
>the reservoir rather than dumping into the top of it. I'd have to dig
>mine out to be sure and it's all gucky with brake fluid and buried
>somewhere in the garage. IIRC, the pressure port on the MityVac is
>vertical and on the other side of the gauge from the vacuum port, which
>is horizontal.
>
>I could easily be wrong, though. Happens all the time.

You *can* switch the lines on the Mity-Vac, bot I don't think it'll
put out enough pressure to force the fluid up the brake lines. Most
people that do it that way seem to use the syringe looking thing.

BTW, we're gonna end up using that tree you sent sans tin, so chrome
is a good thing in this case. It's in way better shape than the one I
had already.
--
Old Crow
'82 FLTC(P)
'95 Wrangler YJ
BS#132, TOMKAT, SENS, SLOB#13
** Posted from http :// www .teranews,com **

Re: Soft Brakes - A Feature ???

"Spunky Hussein Tuna" <spunkyhusseintuna@earthlink,net > wrote in message
news:kKWdnWp9HbgImo_VnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@earthlink,com ...
> Bob La Londe wrote:
>
>> Re: 88ci 2003 FLTR-I
>> Yes, its a twinkie.
>
>> The front brakes seemed awfully soft. Now this is a bike with only 5K
>> miles on it. (I said she had not been riding it) The last time she
>> took it in for service I had told the shop that the front brakes were
>> soft. I can squeeze the front brake lever all the way down so it
>> touches the throttle sleeve.
>>
>> I told Patti I didn't want her riding it until I got that figured
>> out. She told me that the local official Harley shop had said the
>> brakes were supposed to be that way. Some kind of new easy brake
>> design.
>
> The operative phrase here is 'Bullshit!' Harley brakes are not state of
> the art by any means (well, maybe the brand new Brembos are, but not 2003
> brakes for certain) but they should be better than Flintstone brakes.
>
> I'd suggest that either:
> they aren't completely bled (the dual fronts are often recalcitrant little
> dog-fuckers to get bled completely)
>
> the brake fluid is contaminated with water
>
> your brake lines are shit

That is possible I can feel things moving like swelling brake lines before
anythig happens.

> (the rubber ones get spongier with age and aren't all that rigid to begin
> with under the best of circumstances).
>
>
> I'd further suggest attacking the problem in this order:
>
> rebleed the brakes, using a Mity Vac if you have one to force the fluid
> from the bottom up.

I've used a Mity Vac to pull all of the brake fluid out of a system to flush
before, but how do you use it to push fluid up into the brake system?

> if that doesn't work drain, flush, and refill the brakes with new fluid
> and then guess what? Right. Bleed 'em again.

Yeah, I reckon a compelte flush is in order. The Dot 5 that was in it is
yellow, and the dot 5 in the bottle is purple. I wonder if somebody filled
them originally with the wrong fluid at assembly.

> if you want the best brakes you're going to get with stock master
> cylinder, calipers, and pads, throw on a set of braided steel lines before
> you refill the brakes with new fluid. You'll hate what a pain in the ass
> bleeding those will be, but the compensation of having brake lines that
> don't balloon when you actually try to use them is usually enough
> compensation for the additional aggravation.

Yeah, been there done that. Went to braided everything on the wife's old
Fatboy. Sure was nice when all was done though. I think I'll suggest that
to Patti. She likes anything that looks custom anyway.

Thanks.

Re: Soft Brakes - A Feature ???

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:29:19 -0400, Spunky Hussein Tuna
<spunkyhusseintuna@earthlink,net > wrote:

> Harley brakes are not state of
>the art by any means (well, maybe the brand new Brembos are, but not
>2003 brakes for certain) but they should be better than Flintstone brakes.

Damn skippy on the Brembo brakes. They stop my Ultra almost too fast
<sfsf>.

Now, the brakes on my '05 FXDL, on the other hand, were, shall we say,
a bit less efficient, but still adequate. Never spongy, just took a
bit of effort to get the bike stopped.

Shirley - we're all thirsty. Here's the plastic....
--
_____ _____
| ____| |__ / Larry from St. Louis, MO
| _| / / SENS, MAMBM, MISFIT, TOMKAT
| |___ / /_ BS #269 DOF #(I forget)
|_____| /____| 105th Anniversary Edition Ultra

Re: Soft Brakes - A Feature ???

In article <kKWdnWp9HbgImo_VnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@earthlink,com >,
Spunky Hussein Tuna <spunkyhusseintuna@earthlink,net > wrote:

> rebleed the brakes, using a Mity Vac if you have one to force the fluid
> from the bottom up.

I think this is sorta extreme and a vacuum can insert air bubbles.

Try my method,

Bleed the brakes as best you can, Give your calipers a couple of whacks
with a mallet (plastic), stop have yerself a refreshing beverage. This
lets all the little bubbles come together. Check bleed again by just
opening bleeders (no pump) let gravity do its stuff. Close bleeders.
Then push the pistons back into the caliper, this will force the fluid
back to the M/C and carry any trapped air with it. The air will be
purged into the resivoir and when you pump the lever to move the
pads/pistons back out only fluid will go back in (be sure to release
lever all the way in between pumps and allow it time to suck fluid from
resivoir). Check calipers for air again (be sure to orient bike so
caliper is tipped to put the bleeder at the highest point).

Do not allow the fluid level to get so low that the port in the resivoir
is uncovered (tip bars or bike as needed), or you will have to rinse and
repeat.

At this point you should have a very solid feel, if not you have a bad
master that is allowing air into the system. Or you have had too many
refreshing beverages and should perhaps wait til tomorrow to continue....

--
Ryder Rick

Re: Soft Brakes - A Feature ???

Jinks gave some good advice but don't forget Harleys use DOT 5 fluid. Seen
too many folks use the auto stuff.


--
Ride Safe!
Greasy Rider

http :// tinyurl,com /2h98ax

Re: Soft Brakes - A Feature ???

"Greasy Rider" <spam@trap,com > wrote in message
news:481209c2$0$7725$4c368faf@roadrunner,com ...
> Jinks gave some good advice but don't forget Harleys use DOT 5 fluid.
> Seen too many folks use the auto stuff.

Thanks. I always look. I've had/got bikes that use 3 4 & 5.

Re: Soft Brakes - A Feature ???

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:42:08 -0400, "Greasy Rider" <spam@trap,com > wrote:

>Jinks gave some good advice but don't forget Harleys use DOT 5 fluid. Seen
>too many folks use the auto stuff.

They only do it once.......8^) 4 + 5 = Jello!
-

Jinks ('86FXRS, '07 FLTR)
#64
Remember, "No good deed goes unpunished"

Re: Soft Brakes - A Feature ???


"Greasy Rider" <spam@trap,com > wrote in message
news:481209c2$0$7725$4c368faf@roadrunner,com ...
> Jinks gave some good advice but don't forget Harleys use DOT 5 fluid.
> Seen too many folks use the auto stuff.
>
>
I believe one reason that bleeding is such a problem is the Dot 5 fluid. It
doesn't wreck the paint as much as Dot 4 but is nowhere near as good as a
brake fluid, it boils eariler and traps air bubbles better.
I drained all the Dot 5 from my 1200S sporty's dual front brales and pumped
about a litre of Dot 4 through the system when my lever came back to the
bars and no bleeding seemed to work. The brakes work much better now, no
sign of jelly in the master cylinder so I must have flushed all the Dot 5
out.

I also have a 08 FLHT with Brembo's, wow them's the brakes, two finger
braking ah la Ducati.. I note that the master cylinder warning label reads
"use only Dot 4 fluid from a sealed container" so it seems even HD have
given the Dot 5 away.

Re: Soft Brakes - A Feature ???

In article <fuv7j0$9ga$1@news-01.bur.connect,com .au>,
"Capt.about_lunchtime" <cameronb@aapt,net .au> wrote:

> I note that the master cylinder warning label reads
> "use only Dot 4 fluid from a sealed container" so it seems even HD have
> given the Dot 5 away.

You answered your own question.

BREMBO

--
Ryder Rick

Re: Soft Brakes - Time to get to work

Well, I relayed what you guys had to say, and my experience with this to
Patti. She walked in last night with new braided stainless brake lines, and
asked how long till I was finished. LOL.