after reading about capirossi and melandri's struggles w/ the ducati

after reading about capirossi and melandri's struggles w/ the ducati

i have more respect for stoner's ability.

* w w w .motorcyclenews . com /MCN/sport/sportresults/mcn/2008/January/14-20/jan1608mleandrihopingtoimprove/?&R=EPI-98091

Re: after reading about capirossi and melandri's struggles w/ the ducati

walter <wamanning@gmail . com > Fri, 18 Jan 2008 18:19:08
>i have more respect for stoner's ability.
>
> * w w w .motorcyclenews . com /MCN/sport/sportresults/mcn/2008/January/14
>-20/jan1608mleandrihopingtoimprove/?&R=EPI-98091

I think Melandri and Elias will be disappointing this season. Jury's out
on Capirossi. On Edwards too.

Just a few more days and it begins.

Is it right that there's no Repsol Honda team in 250 or 125? In fact are
there any Hondas left? That's quite a landmark that there's not a single
Japanese factory in the support classes. How far back do you have to go
for when that happened before. 1962?

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Re: after reading about capirossi and melandri's struggles w/ the ducati

On 2008-01-19 04:28:13 -0500, Julian Bond <julian_bond@voidstar . com > said:

> walter <wamanning@gmail . com > Fri, 18 Jan 2008 18:19:08
>> i have more respect for stoner's ability.
>>
>> * w w w .motorcyclenews . com /MCN/sport/sportresults/mcn/2008/January/14
>> -20/jan1608mleandrihopingtoimprove/?&R=EPI-98091
>
> I think Melandri and Elias will be disappointing this season. Jury's
> out on Capirossi. On Edwards too.
>
> Just a few more days and it begins.
>
> Is it right that there's no Repsol Honda team in 250 or 125? In fact
> are there any Hondas left? That's quite a landmark that there's not a
> single Japanese factory in the support classes. How far back do you
> have to go for when that happened before. 1962?

Really? No Nips in either 125, or 250? I was under the impression they
were going to hang for another year, or so, interesting...

Re: after reading about capirossi and melandri's struggles w/ the ducati

T3 <notme@nowhere . net > Sat, 19 Jan 2008 10:21:55
>Really? No Nips in either 125, or 250? I was under the impression they
>were going to hang for another year, or so, interesting...

Well maybe I'm missing something but the only Honda I can see in either
class is Williarott on a private Honda.

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Re: after reading about capirossi and melandri's struggles w/ the ducati

Julian Bond wrote:
> Is it right that there's no Repsol Honda team in 250 or 125? In fact are
> there any Hondas left? That's quite a landmark that there's not a single
> Japanese factory in the support classes. How far back do you have to go
> for when that happened before. 1962?

If true, it also means there is even less crossover left at all
between MotoGP and the support classes, and only one MSMA member
involved in the support classes - Aprilia. The MSMA is the key body
with regard to machine definition issues, with any unanimous vote
among them having the power of law, so technically they can impose new
support class definitions without consulting Dorna, the IRTA or the
FIM. But all it takes is one contrary vote among them and any decision
goes to Dorna. That gives Aprilia significant power here, able to veto
the will of the MotoGP manufacturers if they want.

In the real world it all gets decidid behind closed doors and who has
photos of key individuals in compromising positions, etc. Not a great
situation, with the Big Show supporters not involved in the support
classes but likely to have their ideas on what they should be and what
might get them involved, and Aprilia being close to the only active
supporter of those classes and having materially different interests
and ideas. An unfortunate standoff which is unlikely to eventually
resolve itself in a very satisfactory manner...

Re: after reading about capirossi and melandri's struggles w/ the ducati

On 19 Jan, 02:19, walter <wamann...@gmail . com > wrote:
> i have more respect for stoner's ability.
>
> * w w w .motorcyclenews . com /MCN/sport/sportresults/mcn/2008/January...

Melandri comments he wants the engine tamed a bit to suit his style, I
think the fact that Casey was able to ride the bike on the edge with a
motor that Capirossi and now it seems Melandri can't adapt to was one
of the factors to his success, I have been watching the races from
last year again and Casey really rode the wheels off that bike, for
sure it had the speed but he pushed hard and was able to keep up up
through the twisty bits to be able to take advantage of that. The
more I watch last years races the more I believe he deserved the
championship. I really think he will defend his title this year and
this years MGP could be a real classic season with close races and a
tight title fight between Stoner, Rossi, Pedrosa and Hayden. Yep I
think this years bike will suit Nicky much better and he will be
determiined to make an impression and be in for a shot at the title
again.
I don't think Melandri will adapt to be a real threat and don't see
Capirossi or unfortunately Hopkins being one either.
Still less than a month away before the first official test and less
than 2 months before it all kicks off.

My preseason title predictions are...

Stoner
Rossi
Hayden

but subject to change :-p

Paul

Re: after reading about capirossi and melandri's struggles w/ the ducati

It's interesting reading that article as well.
I see it as Ducati made a bike(motor) that made great power for the duration
of a race with the limited fuel range that they had.

The fine line between a perfect air/fuel mix & running too lean is something
thar they have shown to perfect over the past season.
Most of us know that the more fuel = more power so they have managed a
strong motor with the minimal fuel available.
A bike that is running "fat" or rich is far easier to ride as it's not as
snappy on the throttle but may not last race distance. It's quite
embarrassing for the bike to not finish due to poor fuel economy than to
finish back in the pack a little.
It is interesting that Capirossi won in Japan where the heat & humidity are
quite high, which tends to make the bike a little more doughy on the
throttle but in other races he struggled.

Anyone remember when the Big Bang bikes entered 500cc gp's?? Doohan
complained, amongst others that the bikes were too easy to ride.
Other riders & journo's have commented that this generation of motogp bikes
are quite tame, maybe Ducati going with a screamer engine worked as they had
a rider who preferred a snappy throttle.

Anyway, I'll just go back to the couch.

Daron





"Paul B" <Woofmix@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:8569f73a-7840-40c7-a18f-cc3b4962a4b9@e25g2000prg.googlegroups . com ...
> On 19 Jan, 02:19, walter <wamann...@gmail . com > wrote:
>> i have more respect for stoner's ability.
>>
>> * w w w .motorcyclenews . com /MCN/sport/sportresults/mcn/2008/January...
>
> Melandri comments he wants the engine tamed a bit to suit his style, I
> think the fact that Casey was able to ride the bike on the edge with a
> motor that Capirossi and now it seems Melandri can't adapt to was one
> of the factors to his success, I have been watching the races from
> last year again and Casey really rode the wheels off that bike, for
> sure it had the speed but he pushed hard and was able to keep up up
> through the twisty bits to be able to take advantage of that. The
> more I watch last years races the more I believe he deserved the
> championship. I really think he will defend his title this year and
> this years MGP could be a real classic season with close races and a
> tight title fight between Stoner, Rossi, Pedrosa and Hayden. Yep I
> think this years bike will suit Nicky much better and he will be
> determiined to make an impression and be in for a shot at the title
> again.
> I don't think Melandri will adapt to be a real threat and don't see
> Capirossi or unfortunately Hopkins being one either.
> Still less than a month away before the first official test and less
> than 2 months before it all kicks off.
>
> My preseason title predictions are...
>
> Stoner
> Rossi
> Hayden
>
> but subject to change :-p
>
> Paul

Re: after reading about capirossi and melandri's struggles w/ the ducati

Paul B <Woofmix@gmail . com > Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:50:57
>I don't think Melandri will adapt to be a real threat and don't see
>Capirossi or unfortunately Hopkins being one either.
>Still less than a month away before the first official test and less
>than 2 months before it all kicks off.

One thing I noticed the other day. There aren't any "no-hopers" this
year. There's no team on Dunlops. If the satellite Hondas are as good as
the Repsol's from the last race of 2007, they'll be competitive at the
start of the season. The D'Antin team seem like they might actually have
some money and their Ducatis should also be as good as Stoner's from
late 2007. KR doesn't look like they'll be on the grid. I think we'll
see several races in the first half of the season where the entire grid
is covered by 1 second. This is bound to change as the top teams move
their development away from the private teams but at least to start with
I think it's all going to be very close.

But then quality will out. I think Hopkins will end up exactly where he
was last year. In the TV frame in 3rd and 4th. And he may well have
Vermeulen and another 4 or 5 bikes for company.

Perhaps it doesn't matter if there's only 18 bikes starting if they're
all covered by 20s. Which is going to make it even more important not to
have an off day. If Melandri or Capirossi have a bad day, they could end
up with a faster race time than last year, 20s back from the front and
15th.

The other fun question is whether any of the wunderkind will do a Dani P
and win a race in their rookie season. Jorge at Assen? Dovi at a wet Le
Mans? Toseland at Qatar? Then there's the question of who's going to get
taken out by De Puniet, De Angelis, Elias and where.

Yup, it's going to be the best season ever. Like always. And there's
good reason to think that 250, 125, WSB and WSS are all going to be epic
as well. And that's before we get to the national championships.
DonchaJusLoveThisSport?

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Re: after reading about capirossi and melandri's struggles w/ the ducati

Julian Bond wrote:

> One thing I noticed the other day. There aren't any "no-hopers" this
> year. There's no team on Dunlops. If the satellite Hondas are as good as
> the Repsol's from the last race of 2007, they'll be competitive at the
> start of the season. The D'Antin team seem like they might actually have
> some money and their Ducatis should also be as good as Stoner's from
> late 2007. KR doesn't look like they'll be on the grid. I think we'll
> see several races in the first half of the season where the entire grid
> is covered by 1 second. This is bound to change as the top teams move
> their development away from the private teams but at least to start with
> I think it's all going to be very close.
>
> But then quality will out. I think Hopkins will end up exactly where he
> was last year. In the TV frame in 3rd and 4th. And he may well have
> Vermeulen and another 4 or 5 bikes for company.
>
> Perhaps it doesn't matter if there's only 18 bikes starting if they're
> all covered by 20s. Which is going to make it even more important not to
> have an off day. If Melandri or Capirossi have a bad day, they could end
> up with a faster race time than last year, 20s back from the front and
> 15th.
>
> The other fun question is whether any of the wunderkind will do a Dani P
> and win a race in their rookie season. Jorge at Assen? Dovi at a wet Le
> Mans? Toseland at Qatar? Then there's the question of who's going to get
> taken out by De Puniet, De Angelis, Elias and where.
>
> Yup, it's going to be the best season ever. Like always. And there's
> good reason to think that 250, 125, WSB and WSS are all going to be epic
> as well. And that's before we get to the national championships.
> DonchaJusLoveThisSport?

Yes, it all looks rather rosy this time of year, but then the usual
stuff starts once the racing does. You don't mention tires at all here,
and the only way that the year turns out anything like what you describe
is if Michelin manages to make up the small gap they had last year to
Bridgestone, and there's no certainty of that at all. Over recent years
Bridgestone tends to make big, sudden leaps, and that has been after a
winter of work, or after the summer break. What if they make another
sudden leap, and essentially Honda is sunk, and everyone at Yamaha
except Rossi?

The other possibility is that, with the retention of the tire limits,
Michelin manages to bridge the overall gap but there is nothing
consistent in that. So one weekend Michelin has a notable advantage and
the next it's Bridgestone. With tires crafted for specific tracks in
MotoGP and the way last year went, there would be nothing surprising
about that. That might be an edge for the Repsol boys, who only have to
fight each other when the bleu tires are tops, but Rossi and Stoner and
Malendri and Hopkins and Vermeulen have each other to battle when the
rising sun has risen.

Then you have the perpetual tail-ending of the Suzukis and Kawasakis,
who never seem to quite catch the big three and who might have looked
artificially good with the situation as it was last year. There is
always hope for them, but that usually comes up rags once the racing
starts. Neither has ever won a dry race in MotoGP, which is saying
something.

And then the inevitable difference between the factory bikes nad the
lease boys, and all signs point to that gap increasing this year - the
new bikes last year meant everyone was starting at about the same spot,
but that's gone now, and the failures at Honda and Yamaha probably means
they will be focused more than ever on their top guys. And Honda has
their worst field of lease riders I can recall in MotoGP - two rookies,
Nakano coming off his worst year ever, questionable de Puniet changing
bikes. And those guys are hrdly the only questionable ones, you can
throw in Lorenzo, Toseland, Capirossi, Elias, Guntoli as well.

So the whole field within 20 seconds? Not likely, but we probably won't
see as much of guys being more than a minute off at the end. But I don't
think it will be unusual at all to see guys 40-50 seconds back.

What I do think we'll see this year are some surprises, as the
foundation of what the playing field is for most folks looking in, built
on last year, is so unstable, so uncertain - is Rossi done? Is Stoner
for real? Will the bigger bike work for Hayden and is he a real
contender or was '06 a fluke? Can Kawasaki and Hopkins make that last
jump? Can Melandri and Ducati make that marriage work? Can Michelin come
back? Can Pedrosa make the step up to serious championship contender? Is
Vermeulen ready to step it up as well, and is Suzuki really committed to
winning in GP?

The three guys with the best shots are Rossi, Pedrosa and Stoner, of
course, as the top guys at the three top factory teams. Hayden and
Melandri have additional hurdles, Marco changing bikes and that not
starting well, Hayden having to try harder as #2, as always, and hope
the bike actually fits him now. Hopkins hasn't fully meshed with the
Kawi yet, and Kawi has to make a general jump as well. And the tires
can't be a big issue for any of them. Beyond that, I don't see anyone
consistently in the fight.

Re: after reading about capirossi and melandri's struggles w/ the ducati

Paul B wrote:
> On 19 Jan, 02:19, walter <wamann...@gmail . com > wrote:
>> i have more respect for stoner's ability.
>>
>> * w w w .motorcyclenews . com /MCN/sport/sportresults/mcn/2008/January...
>
> Melandri comments he wants the engine tamed a bit to suit his style, I
> think the fact that Casey was able to ride the bike on the edge with a
> motor that Capirossi and now it seems Melandri can't adapt to was one
> of the factors to his success, I have been watching the races from
> last year again and Casey really rode the wheels off that bike, for
> sure it had the speed but he pushed hard and was able to keep up up
> through the twisty bits to be able to take advantage of that. The
> more I watch last years races the more I believe he deserved the
> championship. I really think he will defend his title this year and
> this years MGP could be a real classic season with close races and a
> tight title fight between Stoner, Rossi, Pedrosa and Hayden. Yep I
> think this years bike will suit Nicky much better and he will be
> determiined to make an impression and be in for a shot at the title
> again.

One thing I noticed was Melandri comment that he needs to be more comfortable
with opening up the throttle. To me it seems like that means trusting the
electronics more. So again (given the amount of crashes the previous year,
and the complete lack of them this past year) maybe the Duc was rewarding
the youthful reckless abandon.

Bruce

Re: after reading about capirossi and melandri's struggles w/ the ducati

Bruce Hartweg wrote:
> Paul B wrote:
>> walter wrote:

>> Melandri comments he wants the engine tamed a bit to suit his style, I
>> think the fact that Casey was able to ride the bike on the edge with a
>> motor that Capirossi and now it seems Melandri can't adapt to was one
>> of the factors to his success, I have been watching the races from
>> last year again and Casey really rode the wheels off that bike, for
>> sure it had the speed but he pushed hard and was able to keep up up
>> through the twisty bits to be able to take advantage of that. The
>> more I watch last years races the more I believe he deserved the
>> championship. I really think he will defend his title this year and
>> this years MGP could be a real classic season with close races and a
>> tight title fight between Stoner, Rossi, Pedrosa and Hayden. Yep I
>> think this years bike will suit Nicky much better and he will be
>> determiined to make an impression and be in for a shot at the title
>> again.
>
> One thing I noticed was Melandri comment that he needs to be more
> comfortable
> with opening up the throttle. To me it seems like that means trusting the
> electronics more. So again (given the amount of crashes the previous year,
> and the complete lack of them this past year) maybe the Duc was rewarding
> the youthful reckless abandon.

That is the general line out there in the press, that Stoner simply
trusted the electronic controls more than Capirossi, and that they were
better on the Ducati than anywhere else. I know Mamola was saying that
during the year and Scott had an editorial in CN recently about that,
saying the young guys who have never ridden overpowered bikes (the 250
guys) don't have the mental hurdle to get over, and what the electronics
do is simply how these machines operate to them. The Old Schoolers have
to learn that yet, and none really have (and of course Scott guesses
that Rossi is most likely).

I think it's more complex than just that, although it's probably a
factor. That the Ducati does what it does and Stoner handled it so well
suggests to me that there is something about his background, racing on
the dirt in Aus and then racing somewhat underdog bikes in 250, prepared
him to deal with his situation better than others, including classmate
Pedrosa (who is a pure 125/250 guy who never had that much of an
equipment disadvantage). Combine that with being on the fastest bike and
the best tires, and his package was complete.

Now that doesn't mean he has some secret which needs to be duplicated
elsewhere. It may be that he's a great match with the Ducati and he'll
hold that edge over Melandri this year, but Honda and Yamaha will find
another answer as they increase their power and improve their
electronics package. And Ducat may realize they've actually done
something wrong, building a bike that the usual 125/250-derived riders
and hires from elsewhere in MotoGP simply can't make it work. So as all
the bikes evolve toward a common center, Stoner may discover he's lost
his edge. Then we see what he really has.