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The Roger the Dodger Guide to What is a NASBike
After reading the CN interview with Roger Edmondson (more than once) , I
thought I'd help folks wade through all the words and get to the essence
of exactly how Rog pictures the bikes that he'll feature going forward.
Q: Will the premier class be 1000s or 600s?
Rog: It could be 600s... It's too early for me to lay out a vision for
what Superbike racing should be, but we certainly recognize the fact
that the industry has a vision for it. Many years ago when they had a
choice to go from 750s they didn't go to 600s - they went 1000s... I do
think the current Superbike series is pretty dysfunctional and probably
the only one who would prefer to see the status quo is Suzuki. So I want
to talk to all of them and see what they want. There is a variety of
ways that could go, but Superbikes will be the premier class. It could
be 1000s, it could be a new program or they could be companion pieces.
My inclination, without talking to anybody, would be to take a hard look
at the FIM's World Superbike rules... In the case of factory motorcycle
racing, these factories are dealing with one set of rules for the rest
of the world and the America sanctioning body thinks they are smarter
than everybody else and has to put their own stamp on it. I think that's
arrogant in a way. It's wasteful to have to build two versions of the
Superbike... There may be legitimate reasons why we should have our own
rules package. Is that something we should write or should we sit down
the four manufacturers and say, "Okay, you guys want nuclear weapons or
microwave ovens?" There are a lot of ways this could go, but we are
going to be inclusive. We're not going to be isolationists and put
people out. But, again, I don't mean to sound arrogant, but the
decisions that we take in here, we will go forward. It has to be that way.
I met with Ray Blank [of Honda] this morning... He made it clear to me
today that the OEMs have supported the AMA, in part, because they had
the ability to control things. And I made it clear that the train has
left the station and it was a new era here.
Q: The World Superbikes are much more liberal and you have faster
motorcycles. Yet you guys are stressing safety?
Rog: Well, they start that way, but that's the equipment that starts
that way. There's the ability to to put restrictors on them, or put
horsepower limits on them, or start taking away things, but on the
equipment that is available and built...
I'll go back to Fred Merkel when he came back to the United States. You
put him on a Superbike and he was up there with two or three guys and
everybody else was back here. But you put him on a 750 Supersport
machine and he was up there with 10 or 12 guys because that many people
further dowen the pyramid could ride that equipment to a competitive
level. This sounds like I'm trying to dumb it down to where we don't
need the same skill level, but you heard me say tonight that we have to
live within our means and let's remember, we're still just a national
championship. I think it's it's not a bad plan to have a separation
between those who are truly the world's best, and those who are
America's best. Nothing wrong with the two programs.
See, you've got to sell hope, but it's got to be realized. And that hope
is just that - you can win if you got the right stuff. And I think one
of the keys there, is a good rules package, but one that requires that
every piece on the motorcycle be available to every competitor. I go
back to the old era, we had $7000 Suzuki 750s with $13,000 radiators on
them, if you can afford a $13,000 radiator, if they'll sell it to you.
It's not available if you can't afford it.
As I said, school's out. New day. How's that working for everybody but
Suzuki now? And I'm not putting down Suzuki, they've done the job.
They've earned their position and they're to be respected for that. But
it's not my job to sell Suzukis. It's my job to give every manufacturer
the opportunity to win. If they don't win, that's not my fault. It's not
our fault as a sanctioning body. But they should have an opportunity.
Right now, they don't have one. The other guys have got it figured out,
they're doing things to keep that position, and we've got to stop it.
And the best way to stop it is readily available equipment.
Whew. So we may have 1000s and we may have 600s, but we'll start with
WSB factory machines and then slow them down from there, but all of that
available to everyone, and at a very reasonable cost. They'll either let
the four Japanese manufacturers decide the rules, or they'll give them a
listen and then decide for themselves. At least we know they'll call
them Superbikes.
Kinda leaves me wondering if Rog knows that not all the factories even
build bikes for WSB these days, or that other championships (like BSB)
have rules that differ from WSB, or that WSB favored Ducati in their
rules for years and that turned it into a twins series, or that a Ducati
street base machine will set one back $40,000 before paying even a dime
of sales tax and never mind actually modifying it, or that factories
don't sell there stuff to just anyone let alone at an affordable price,
or that the current rules are the same for all the Japanese factories in
the AMA and don't somehow favor Suzuki, etc. And he could bone up on
Merkel as well - Fred finished 8th in 750SS that year for Kawasaki and
won only one race, but the guys who finished ahead of him were almost
all on Suzukis and they won every race but the two won by Kawasaki. In
SB that year Merkel finished tied for 10th, didn't win a race and I
think was only on the box once, and Ducati, Yamaha and Kawasaki
(Russell) won all the races, as Suzuki and Honda had relative dogs for
SBs that year. And does he remember the Brainerd race that year, perhaps
the best SB race ever, led by something like eight different riders on
all six machines contesting that championship? Oh, well, memories are
convenient things.
But, hey, at least we can feel secure in the knowledge that America's
premier racing series is now in the hands of people with such a deep
understanding of motorcycle racing and a clear vision of how to pull it
out of its current doldrums and thrust it toward a brilliant future...
thought I'd help folks wade through all the words and get to the essence
of exactly how Rog pictures the bikes that he'll feature going forward.
Q: Will the premier class be 1000s or 600s?
Rog: It could be 600s... It's too early for me to lay out a vision for
what Superbike racing should be, but we certainly recognize the fact
that the industry has a vision for it. Many years ago when they had a
choice to go from 750s they didn't go to 600s - they went 1000s... I do
think the current Superbike series is pretty dysfunctional and probably
the only one who would prefer to see the status quo is Suzuki. So I want
to talk to all of them and see what they want. There is a variety of
ways that could go, but Superbikes will be the premier class. It could
be 1000s, it could be a new program or they could be companion pieces.
My inclination, without talking to anybody, would be to take a hard look
at the FIM's World Superbike rules... In the case of factory motorcycle
racing, these factories are dealing with one set of rules for the rest
of the world and the America sanctioning body thinks they are smarter
than everybody else and has to put their own stamp on it. I think that's
arrogant in a way. It's wasteful to have to build two versions of the
Superbike... There may be legitimate reasons why we should have our own
rules package. Is that something we should write or should we sit down
the four manufacturers and say, "Okay, you guys want nuclear weapons or
microwave ovens?" There are a lot of ways this could go, but we are
going to be inclusive. We're not going to be isolationists and put
people out. But, again, I don't mean to sound arrogant, but the
decisions that we take in here, we will go forward. It has to be that way.
I met with Ray Blank [of Honda] this morning... He made it clear to me
today that the OEMs have supported the AMA, in part, because they had
the ability to control things. And I made it clear that the train has
left the station and it was a new era here.
Q: The World Superbikes are much more liberal and you have faster
motorcycles. Yet you guys are stressing safety?
Rog: Well, they start that way, but that's the equipment that starts
that way. There's the ability to to put restrictors on them, or put
horsepower limits on them, or start taking away things, but on the
equipment that is available and built...
I'll go back to Fred Merkel when he came back to the United States. You
put him on a Superbike and he was up there with two or three guys and
everybody else was back here. But you put him on a 750 Supersport
machine and he was up there with 10 or 12 guys because that many people
further dowen the pyramid could ride that equipment to a competitive
level. This sounds like I'm trying to dumb it down to where we don't
need the same skill level, but you heard me say tonight that we have to
live within our means and let's remember, we're still just a national
championship. I think it's it's not a bad plan to have a separation
between those who are truly the world's best, and those who are
America's best. Nothing wrong with the two programs.
See, you've got to sell hope, but it's got to be realized. And that hope
is just that - you can win if you got the right stuff. And I think one
of the keys there, is a good rules package, but one that requires that
every piece on the motorcycle be available to every competitor. I go
back to the old era, we had $7000 Suzuki 750s with $13,000 radiators on
them, if you can afford a $13,000 radiator, if they'll sell it to you.
It's not available if you can't afford it.
As I said, school's out. New day. How's that working for everybody but
Suzuki now? And I'm not putting down Suzuki, they've done the job.
They've earned their position and they're to be respected for that. But
it's not my job to sell Suzukis. It's my job to give every manufacturer
the opportunity to win. If they don't win, that's not my fault. It's not
our fault as a sanctioning body. But they should have an opportunity.
Right now, they don't have one. The other guys have got it figured out,
they're doing things to keep that position, and we've got to stop it.
And the best way to stop it is readily available equipment.
Whew. So we may have 1000s and we may have 600s, but we'll start with
WSB factory machines and then slow them down from there, but all of that
available to everyone, and at a very reasonable cost. They'll either let
the four Japanese manufacturers decide the rules, or they'll give them a
listen and then decide for themselves. At least we know they'll call
them Superbikes.
Kinda leaves me wondering if Rog knows that not all the factories even
build bikes for WSB these days, or that other championships (like BSB)
have rules that differ from WSB, or that WSB favored Ducati in their
rules for years and that turned it into a twins series, or that a Ducati
street base machine will set one back $40,000 before paying even a dime
of sales tax and never mind actually modifying it, or that factories
don't sell there stuff to just anyone let alone at an affordable price,
or that the current rules are the same for all the Japanese factories in
the AMA and don't somehow favor Suzuki, etc. And he could bone up on
Merkel as well - Fred finished 8th in 750SS that year for Kawasaki and
won only one race, but the guys who finished ahead of him were almost
all on Suzukis and they won every race but the two won by Kawasaki. In
SB that year Merkel finished tied for 10th, didn't win a race and I
think was only on the box once, and Ducati, Yamaha and Kawasaki
(Russell) won all the races, as Suzuki and Honda had relative dogs for
SBs that year. And does he remember the Brainerd race that year, perhaps
the best SB race ever, led by something like eight different riders on
all six machines contesting that championship? Oh, well, memories are
convenient things.
But, hey, at least we can feel secure in the knowledge that America's
premier racing series is now in the hands of people with such a deep
understanding of motorcycle racing and a clear vision of how to pull it
out of its current doldrums and thrust it toward a brilliant future...
Mark N wrote:
> But, hey, at least we can feel secure in the knowledge that America's
> premier racing series is now in the hands of people with such a deep
> understanding of motorcycle racing and a clear vision of how to pull it
> out of its current doldrums and thrust it toward a brilliant future...
I'mmm detecting a weeeee bit of cynicism here... :-)
Basically, it's all up in the air, and they're going to turn it topsy
turvey on its head next year.
To me this is the money quote, and I think pegs his entire attitude.
> This sounds like I'm trying to dumb it down to where we don't
> need the same skill level, but you heard me say tonight that
> we have to live within our means and let's remember, we're
> still just a national championship.
"Just a national championship". (This may sound arrogant, it's not
intended too, but email can do horrible things to intent.)
If you look at WSB, and consider the EU a single "nation", WSB is
effectively a "national" championship as well (yes, they have 4 trips
out to Qatar, Australia, US, and Indonesia this year).
Appreciate that it may be "just a national champhionship", it's also the
"national championship" of the worlds largest economy, with the 3rd
largest population.
We have a lot of "national championships" and road shows that criss
cross the country.
We know how good the riders in the AMA are when we used to wildcard in
WSB, and they perform very well.
I wonder if the NASCAR drivers feel like "they're just in a national
championship". Untalented hacks that can't run with the "big boys" at
the "top level".
The big difference between AMA and WSB is simply the crowds they draw,
and that's a demographic issue directly related to the popularity of
motor sport in Europe vs the US.
Good riders go where they can be a) paid, and b) challenged. For
whatever reason, WSB is no longer a stepping stone for American riders.
It's not even a destination. There's never recently been mention of
"when is XYZ going to move up to WSB", it's all GP now, and it has very
limited slots as well as other issues. That seems to have been a direct
reaction to the spec tire rule. Ben Bostrom went over once, but he
certainly wasn't serious, as his team wasn't particularly serious.
Perhaps someone can tell me why Neil Hodgson is over here (again) this
year, and not in WSB (or BSB for that matter). I can't believe he
couldn't find a slot somewhere, I'm guessing it's more a money issue.
The paddock this year is quite cosmopolitan as well, we have our token
Australians, Neil, a Japanese rider, a Mexican rider, resident Canadians
of course, and Chaz Davies (boy, is he serious or what?). No doubt there
are others. Not the diversity of WSB, but if you look at it from a
"state" level, then sure, they're all over the map. California, Texas,
Mississippi, New York, Kentucky, etc. etc.
There are no barriers to entry in the AMA, we don't have "no French
allowed" rules. I don't think any of the series do.
Riders go where they're paid. If Rog wants to make the AMA "second
fiddle" to WSB, then adopt WSB rules, adopt the Pirelli spec tires, and
put a salary cap on the riders. That will give the "good riders" a
destination up to the "big series" so they don't have to wallow in the
mud of a "mere" "national series" like the insignificant AMA.
Then we yanks can go to the track and watch Jethro, Huck, and Blue
Bonnet (oh, wait, we have NASCAR for that).
It's a shame that NASBike is destined to become "spectacle" rather than
racing. The dark side is how much this can affect the clubs as well,
since they need to prepare their riders for the AMA, so a lot the new
AMA rules will bubble down to the club series as well.
Hmm, maybe I have a wee bit of cynicism too.
> But, hey, at least we can feel secure in the knowledge that America's
> premier racing series is now in the hands of people with such a deep
> understanding of motorcycle racing and a clear vision of how to pull it
> out of its current doldrums and thrust it toward a brilliant future...
I'mmm detecting a weeeee bit of cynicism here... :-)
Basically, it's all up in the air, and they're going to turn it topsy
turvey on its head next year.
To me this is the money quote, and I think pegs his entire attitude.
> This sounds like I'm trying to dumb it down to where we don't
> need the same skill level, but you heard me say tonight that
> we have to live within our means and let's remember, we're
> still just a national championship.
"Just a national championship". (This may sound arrogant, it's not
intended too, but email can do horrible things to intent.)
If you look at WSB, and consider the EU a single "nation", WSB is
effectively a "national" championship as well (yes, they have 4 trips
out to Qatar, Australia, US, and Indonesia this year).
Appreciate that it may be "just a national champhionship", it's also the
"national championship" of the worlds largest economy, with the 3rd
largest population.
We have a lot of "national championships" and road shows that criss
cross the country.
We know how good the riders in the AMA are when we used to wildcard in
WSB, and they perform very well.
I wonder if the NASCAR drivers feel like "they're just in a national
championship". Untalented hacks that can't run with the "big boys" at
the "top level".
The big difference between AMA and WSB is simply the crowds they draw,
and that's a demographic issue directly related to the popularity of
motor sport in Europe vs the US.
Good riders go where they can be a) paid, and b) challenged. For
whatever reason, WSB is no longer a stepping stone for American riders.
It's not even a destination. There's never recently been mention of
"when is XYZ going to move up to WSB", it's all GP now, and it has very
limited slots as well as other issues. That seems to have been a direct
reaction to the spec tire rule. Ben Bostrom went over once, but he
certainly wasn't serious, as his team wasn't particularly serious.
Perhaps someone can tell me why Neil Hodgson is over here (again) this
year, and not in WSB (or BSB for that matter). I can't believe he
couldn't find a slot somewhere, I'm guessing it's more a money issue.
The paddock this year is quite cosmopolitan as well, we have our token
Australians, Neil, a Japanese rider, a Mexican rider, resident Canadians
of course, and Chaz Davies (boy, is he serious or what?). No doubt there
are others. Not the diversity of WSB, but if you look at it from a
"state" level, then sure, they're all over the map. California, Texas,
Mississippi, New York, Kentucky, etc. etc.
There are no barriers to entry in the AMA, we don't have "no French
allowed" rules. I don't think any of the series do.
Riders go where they're paid. If Rog wants to make the AMA "second
fiddle" to WSB, then adopt WSB rules, adopt the Pirelli spec tires, and
put a salary cap on the riders. That will give the "good riders" a
destination up to the "big series" so they don't have to wallow in the
mud of a "mere" "national series" like the insignificant AMA.
Then we yanks can go to the track and watch Jethro, Huck, and Blue
Bonnet (oh, wait, we have NASCAR for that).
It's a shame that NASBike is destined to become "spectacle" rather than
racing. The dark side is how much this can affect the clubs as well,
since they need to prepare their riders for the AMA, so a lot the new
AMA rules will bubble down to the club series as well.
Hmm, maybe I have a wee bit of cynicism too.
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 08:58:54 -0700, Will Hartung
<redrocks@sbcglobal . net > wrote:
> > This sounds like I'm trying to dumb it down to where we don't
> > need the same skill level, but you heard me say tonight that
> > we have to live within our means and let's remember, we're
> > still just a national championship.
>
>"Just a national championship". (This may sound arrogant, it's not
>intended too, but email can do horrible things to intent.)
>
>If you look at WSB, and consider the EU a single "nation"
Why on earth would you consider that?
> WSB is effectively a "national" championship as well (yes, they have 4 trips
>out to Qatar, Australia, US, and Indonesia this year).
Well, sure. We could consider the AMA a 'western hemisphere
championship' and wonder why it never visits Mexico, South America or
Canada. But that would be silly.
>Appreciate that it may be "just a national champhionship", it's also the
>"national championship" of the worlds largest economy, with the 3rd
>largest population.
While this is true, the audience is what counts, and it doesn't appear
to be there for bike racing. Why does basketball get close to zero
coverage in europe? Because no one cares, is why. But people do care
about bike racing (massively in some places - in Spain it's the second
biggest sport after football - another sport not much covered in the
USA). The races go to two places :
1. where the interest is
2. where the tobacco advertising rules are lax, for TV coverage
>I wonder if the NASCAR drivers feel like "they're just in a national
>championship". Untalented hacks that can't run with the "big boys" at
>the "top level".
Who cares? No one outside the USA watches NASCAR
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
<redrocks@sbcglobal . net > wrote:
> > This sounds like I'm trying to dumb it down to where we don't
> > need the same skill level, but you heard me say tonight that
> > we have to live within our means and let's remember, we're
> > still just a national championship.
>
>"Just a national championship". (This may sound arrogant, it's not
>intended too, but email can do horrible things to intent.)
>
>If you look at WSB, and consider the EU a single "nation"
Why on earth would you consider that?
> WSB is effectively a "national" championship as well (yes, they have 4 trips
>out to Qatar, Australia, US, and Indonesia this year).
Well, sure. We could consider the AMA a 'western hemisphere
championship' and wonder why it never visits Mexico, South America or
Canada. But that would be silly.
>Appreciate that it may be "just a national champhionship", it's also the
>"national championship" of the worlds largest economy, with the 3rd
>largest population.
While this is true, the audience is what counts, and it doesn't appear
to be there for bike racing. Why does basketball get close to zero
coverage in europe? Because no one cares, is why. But people do care
about bike racing (massively in some places - in Spain it's the second
biggest sport after football - another sport not much covered in the
USA). The races go to two places :
1. where the interest is
2. where the tobacco advertising rules are lax, for TV coverage
>I wonder if the NASCAR drivers feel like "they're just in a national
>championship". Untalented hacks that can't run with the "big boys" at
>the "top level".
Who cares? No one outside the USA watches NASCAR
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
Will Hartung <redrocks@sbcglobal . net > Tue, 25 Mar 2008 08:58:54
>If you look at WSB, and consider the EU a single "nation", WSB is
>effectively a "national" championship as well (yes, they have 4 trips
>out to Qatar, Australia, US, and Indonesia this year).
>
>Appreciate that it may be "just a national champhionship", it's also
>the "national championship" of the worlds largest economy, with the 3rd
>largest population.
Hmmm. I think the EU just outstripped the USA as "World's Largest
Economy."
>Ben Bostrom went over once, but he certainly wasn't serious, as his
>team wasn't particularly serious.
Funny, that's not how I remember it. Ben hit a peak where he was pretty
good. 5 wins on the trot?
>Perhaps someone can tell me why Neil Hodgson is over here (again) this
>year, and not in WSB (or BSB for that matter). I can't believe he
>couldn't find a slot somewhere, I'm guessing it's more a money issue.
Actually I don't think he could get a slot. The last two years the top
rides on the good factory bikes were all taken.
>Riders go where they're paid. If Rog wants to make the AMA "second
>fiddle" to WSB, then adopt WSB rules, adopt the Pirelli spec tires, and
>put a salary cap on the riders. That will give the "good riders" a
>destination up to the "big series" so they don't have to wallow in the
>mud of a "mere" "national series" like the insignificant AMA.
What puzzles me about all this is an apparent inability to look at what
works well elsewhere. But then this year it's all up in the air again.
Each year we seem to see a press release about how the factories and
reps from all the major SB championships are sitting down and trying to
rationalise and standardise the rules. Everyone thinks this would be a
good thing with benefits to all, and then every year, they all go their
own way.
I guess I'll get accused of bias again, but I think BSB might just have
got the rules right this year. We should be able to tell after half the
season.
- FIM points system
- WSB chassis
- Stock crank, rods, pistons
- WSS600 style top end, cams with stock lift but open duration.
- Stock valve sizes
- Stock intake
- Unlimited head work
- Free gearbox
- 1000cc-4, 1200cc-2
- Spec tyre
- 2 SB races, 1 SS600 race and then usually three or four support races
made up of Superstock1000, 125GP, R1 Cup, Superdukes and whatever.
Practice on Friday and Saturday, all races on Sunday.
What will confuse all this is the quality of the ECU and traction
control. But apart from that it means that the really expensive,
unobtainium bits are outlawed and what's left is available on the open
market.
--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar . com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: * w w w .ecademy . com / T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: * w w w .voidstar . com / skype:julian.bond?chat
Glides On Smooth
>If you look at WSB, and consider the EU a single "nation", WSB is
>effectively a "national" championship as well (yes, they have 4 trips
>out to Qatar, Australia, US, and Indonesia this year).
>
>Appreciate that it may be "just a national champhionship", it's also
>the "national championship" of the worlds largest economy, with the 3rd
>largest population.
Hmmm. I think the EU just outstripped the USA as "World's Largest
Economy."
>Ben Bostrom went over once, but he certainly wasn't serious, as his
>team wasn't particularly serious.
Funny, that's not how I remember it. Ben hit a peak where he was pretty
good. 5 wins on the trot?
>Perhaps someone can tell me why Neil Hodgson is over here (again) this
>year, and not in WSB (or BSB for that matter). I can't believe he
>couldn't find a slot somewhere, I'm guessing it's more a money issue.
Actually I don't think he could get a slot. The last two years the top
rides on the good factory bikes were all taken.
>Riders go where they're paid. If Rog wants to make the AMA "second
>fiddle" to WSB, then adopt WSB rules, adopt the Pirelli spec tires, and
>put a salary cap on the riders. That will give the "good riders" a
>destination up to the "big series" so they don't have to wallow in the
>mud of a "mere" "national series" like the insignificant AMA.
What puzzles me about all this is an apparent inability to look at what
works well elsewhere. But then this year it's all up in the air again.
Each year we seem to see a press release about how the factories and
reps from all the major SB championships are sitting down and trying to
rationalise and standardise the rules. Everyone thinks this would be a
good thing with benefits to all, and then every year, they all go their
own way.
I guess I'll get accused of bias again, but I think BSB might just have
got the rules right this year. We should be able to tell after half the
season.
- FIM points system
- WSB chassis
- Stock crank, rods, pistons
- WSS600 style top end, cams with stock lift but open duration.
- Stock valve sizes
- Stock intake
- Unlimited head work
- Free gearbox
- 1000cc-4, 1200cc-2
- Spec tyre
- 2 SB races, 1 SS600 race and then usually three or four support races
made up of Superstock1000, 125GP, R1 Cup, Superdukes and whatever.
Practice on Friday and Saturday, all races on Sunday.
What will confuse all this is the quality of the ECU and traction
control. But apart from that it means that the really expensive,
unobtainium bits are outlawed and what's left is available on the open
market.
--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar . com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: * w w w .ecademy . com / T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: * w w w .voidstar . com / skype:julian.bond?chat
Glides On Smooth
On 2008-03-25 13:59:45 -0400, Julian Bond <julian_bond@voidstar . com > said:
> Will Hartung <redrocks@sbcglobal . net > Tue, 25 Mar 2008 08:58:54
>> If you look at WSB, and consider the EU a single "nation", WSB is
>> effectively a "national" championship as well (yes, they have 4 trips
>> out to Qatar, Australia, US, and Indonesia this year).
>>
>> Appreciate that it may be "just a national champhionship", it's also
>> the "national championship" of the worlds largest economy, with the 3rd
>> largest population.
>
> Hmmm. I think the EU just outstripped the USA as "World's Largest Economy."
And with real money no less..
>
>> Ben Bostrom went over once, but he certainly wasn't serious, as his
>> team wasn't particularly serious.
>
> Funny, that's not how I remember it. Ben hit a peak where he was pretty
> good. 5 wins on the trot?
Ayup, he got really hot(5 in a row, or something?) and then
unfortunately for him, really cold, in fact, frozen..
>
>> Perhaps someone can tell me why Neil Hodgson is over here (again) this
>> year, and not in WSB (or BSB for that matter). I can't believe he
>> couldn't find a slot somewhere, I'm guessing it's more a money issue.
>
> Actually I don't think he could get a slot. The last two years the top
> rides on the good factory bikes were all taken.
Unlike last year he didn't want to not have a chair when the music
stopped and of course, the money wasn't bad either..
>
>> Riders go where they're paid. If Rog wants to make the AMA "second
>> fiddle" to WSB, then adopt WSB rules, adopt the Pirelli spec tires, and
>> put a salary cap on the riders. That will give the "good riders" a
>> destination up to the "big series" so they don't have to wallow in the
>> mud of a "mere" "national series" like the insignificant AMA.
>
> What puzzles me about all this is an apparent inability to look at what
> works well elsewhere. But then this year it's all up in the air again.
> Each year we seem to see a press release about how the factories and
> reps from all the major SB championships are sitting down and trying to
> rationalise and standardise the rules. Everyone thinks this would be a
> good thing with benefits to all, and then every year, they all go their
> own way.
>
> I guess I'll get accused of bias again, but I think BSB might just have
> got the rules right this year. We should be able to tell after half the
> season.
> - FIM points system
> - WSB chassis
> - Stock crank, rods, pistons
> - WSS600 style top end, cams with stock lift but open duration.
> - Stock valve sizes
> - Stock intake
> - Unlimited head work
> - Free gearbox
> - 1000cc-4, 1200cc-2
> - Spec tyre
> - 2 SB races, 1 SS600 race and then usually three or four support races
> made up of Superstock1000, 125GP, R1 Cup, Superdukes and whatever.
> Practice on Friday and Saturday, all races on Sunday.
I wouldn't be surprised if we end up fairly close with regards to your
SB specs, at least I heard there are "those" lobbying in that
direction, though I do believe our SSport will be pretty much a box
stock type deal and I also wouldn't be surprised if our weekends were
different too, perhaps with the emphasis on "the" Sunday SB race,
though I'd imagine there's a lot of discussion still to be had on that
particular issue..
>
> What will confuse all this is the quality of the ECU and traction
> control. But apart from that it means that the really expensive,
> unobtainium bits are outlawed and what's left is available on the open
> market.
I can see that becoming a problem and wonder just exactly how they plan
to deal with it, as you know, it's easy to be sneaky with 'tronics..
> Will Hartung <redrocks@sbcglobal . net > Tue, 25 Mar 2008 08:58:54
>> If you look at WSB, and consider the EU a single "nation", WSB is
>> effectively a "national" championship as well (yes, they have 4 trips
>> out to Qatar, Australia, US, and Indonesia this year).
>>
>> Appreciate that it may be "just a national champhionship", it's also
>> the "national championship" of the worlds largest economy, with the 3rd
>> largest population.
>
> Hmmm. I think the EU just outstripped the USA as "World's Largest Economy."
And with real money no less..
>
>> Ben Bostrom went over once, but he certainly wasn't serious, as his
>> team wasn't particularly serious.
>
> Funny, that's not how I remember it. Ben hit a peak where he was pretty
> good. 5 wins on the trot?
Ayup, he got really hot(5 in a row, or something?) and then
unfortunately for him, really cold, in fact, frozen..
>
>> Perhaps someone can tell me why Neil Hodgson is over here (again) this
>> year, and not in WSB (or BSB for that matter). I can't believe he
>> couldn't find a slot somewhere, I'm guessing it's more a money issue.
>
> Actually I don't think he could get a slot. The last two years the top
> rides on the good factory bikes were all taken.
Unlike last year he didn't want to not have a chair when the music
stopped and of course, the money wasn't bad either..
>
>> Riders go where they're paid. If Rog wants to make the AMA "second
>> fiddle" to WSB, then adopt WSB rules, adopt the Pirelli spec tires, and
>> put a salary cap on the riders. That will give the "good riders" a
>> destination up to the "big series" so they don't have to wallow in the
>> mud of a "mere" "national series" like the insignificant AMA.
>
> What puzzles me about all this is an apparent inability to look at what
> works well elsewhere. But then this year it's all up in the air again.
> Each year we seem to see a press release about how the factories and
> reps from all the major SB championships are sitting down and trying to
> rationalise and standardise the rules. Everyone thinks this would be a
> good thing with benefits to all, and then every year, they all go their
> own way.
>
> I guess I'll get accused of bias again, but I think BSB might just have
> got the rules right this year. We should be able to tell after half the
> season.
> - FIM points system
> - WSB chassis
> - Stock crank, rods, pistons
> - WSS600 style top end, cams with stock lift but open duration.
> - Stock valve sizes
> - Stock intake
> - Unlimited head work
> - Free gearbox
> - 1000cc-4, 1200cc-2
> - Spec tyre
> - 2 SB races, 1 SS600 race and then usually three or four support races
> made up of Superstock1000, 125GP, R1 Cup, Superdukes and whatever.
> Practice on Friday and Saturday, all races on Sunday.
I wouldn't be surprised if we end up fairly close with regards to your
SB specs, at least I heard there are "those" lobbying in that
direction, though I do believe our SSport will be pretty much a box
stock type deal and I also wouldn't be surprised if our weekends were
different too, perhaps with the emphasis on "the" Sunday SB race,
though I'd imagine there's a lot of discussion still to be had on that
particular issue..
>
> What will confuse all this is the quality of the ECU and traction
> control. But apart from that it means that the really expensive,
> unobtainium bits are outlawed and what's left is available on the open
> market.
I can see that becoming a problem and wonder just exactly how they plan
to deal with it, as you know, it's easy to be sneaky with 'tronics..
T3 <notme@nowhere . net > Tue, 25 Mar 2008 19:31:46
>I can see that becoming a problem and wonder just exactly how they plan
>to deal with it, as you know, it's easy to be sneaky with 'tronics..
It's not so much that the rules might try and limit the electronics and
lead to people being sneaky, as that setting up the electronics and
optimising it is hard. This plays into the hands of the well funded
teams who can afford lots of specialists and track time.
--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar . com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: * w w w .ecademy . com / T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
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Glides On Smooth
>I can see that becoming a problem and wonder just exactly how they plan
>to deal with it, as you know, it's easy to be sneaky with 'tronics..
It's not so much that the rules might try and limit the electronics and
lead to people being sneaky, as that setting up the electronics and
optimising it is hard. This plays into the hands of the well funded
teams who can afford lots of specialists and track time.
--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar . com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: * w w w .ecademy . com / T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: * w w w .voidstar . com / skype:julian.bond?chat
Glides On Smooth
On SB chassis rules. In almost all cases, the major teams use Ohlins or
WP and Brembo brakes. They get their wheels from OZ or Marchesini. If
they need swing arm work, they get a swing arm from Harris or K Roberts.
The one exception to this was the BSB HRC team but they're gone now.
I don't see how any of this was unobtainium that is only available to
the factories. It's not cheap and I can understand restricting some of
it to keep costs down. But it's damn hard to do and actually reduce the
costs. We're seeing this in WSS600 where you have to keep stock forks
but can vary the fork internals which just leads to a price war on fork
kits. There is perhaps an argument for not allowing frame, swingarm,
linkage changes and I do think Honda (and Ducati) changing from a stock
single sided swing arm to a double sided one shouldn't have been
allowed. But mostly I can't see the problem with leaving SB cycle parts
fairly free.
On gearboxes, even the teams with cassette gearboxes weren't changing
gears at the track. But all the top teams strip and rebuild engines for
each race weekend. If the engine's apart, then changing the gears is not
a problem. And there are quite a few suppliers who can supply alternate
ratios or full gearboxes. Primary drive probably does have to be fixed,
mainly because changing it will usually mean changing cranks and clutch
baskets as well.
On BSB, last year they faced the same problem the AMA faces now. A 1200
Ducati and other 1200-2 in the wings. Spiralling costs. The factory
Honda team leaving along with Michelin. The solution was SB chassis, WSS
spec engines for both sizes, FIM SB homologation and a Pirelli spec
tyre. I guess we'll see if it works.
--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar . com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: * w w w .ecademy . com / T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: * w w w .voidstar . com / skype:julian.bond?chat
Glides On Smooth
WP and Brembo brakes. They get their wheels from OZ or Marchesini. If
they need swing arm work, they get a swing arm from Harris or K Roberts.
The one exception to this was the BSB HRC team but they're gone now.
I don't see how any of this was unobtainium that is only available to
the factories. It's not cheap and I can understand restricting some of
it to keep costs down. But it's damn hard to do and actually reduce the
costs. We're seeing this in WSS600 where you have to keep stock forks
but can vary the fork internals which just leads to a price war on fork
kits. There is perhaps an argument for not allowing frame, swingarm,
linkage changes and I do think Honda (and Ducati) changing from a stock
single sided swing arm to a double sided one shouldn't have been
allowed. But mostly I can't see the problem with leaving SB cycle parts
fairly free.
On gearboxes, even the teams with cassette gearboxes weren't changing
gears at the track. But all the top teams strip and rebuild engines for
each race weekend. If the engine's apart, then changing the gears is not
a problem. And there are quite a few suppliers who can supply alternate
ratios or full gearboxes. Primary drive probably does have to be fixed,
mainly because changing it will usually mean changing cranks and clutch
baskets as well.
On BSB, last year they faced the same problem the AMA faces now. A 1200
Ducati and other 1200-2 in the wings. Spiralling costs. The factory
Honda team leaving along with Michelin. The solution was SB chassis, WSS
spec engines for both sizes, FIM SB homologation and a Pirelli spec
tyre. I guess we'll see if it works.
--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar . com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: * w w w .ecademy . com / T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: * w w w .voidstar . com / skype:julian.bond?chat
Glides On Smooth
Julian Bond wrote:
> On SB chassis rules. In almost all cases, the major teams use Ohlins or
> WP and Brembo brakes. They get their wheels from OZ or Marchesini. If
> they need swing arm work, they get a swing arm from Harris or K Roberts.
> The one exception to this was the BSB HRC team but they're gone now.
"The major teams"?
> I don't see how any of this was unobtainium that is only available to
> the factories. It's not cheap and I can understand restricting some of
> it to keep costs down. But it's damn hard to do and actually reduce the
> costs. We're seeing this in WSS600 where you have to keep stock forks
> but can vary the fork internals which just leads to a price war on fork
> kits. There is perhaps an argument for not allowing frame, swingarm,
> linkage changes and I do think Honda (and Ducati) changing from a stock
> single sided swing arm to a double sided one shouldn't have been
> allowed. But mostly I can't see the problem with leaving SB cycle parts
> fairly free.
>
> On gearboxes, even the teams with cassette gearboxes weren't changing
> gears at the track. But all the top teams strip and rebuild engines for
> each race weekend. If the engine's apart, then changing the gears is not
> a problem. And there are quite a few suppliers who can supply alternate
> ratios or full gearboxes. Primary drive probably does have to be fixed,
> mainly because changing it will usually mean changing cranks and clutch
> baskets as well.
"The top teams"?
It all comes down to what you want to accomplish, the discussion being
about affordable racing and no unavailable parts - Edmondson's $13k
radiator comment. If you allow in a factory swingarm, under the current
rules there is no requirement that they sell it to anyone, and there is
no guarantee that even a for-sale kit arm will be what the factories are
running. Sure, you can buy one from someone else, but that isn't the
issue, is it? Yes, many or all of the factories here use Ohlins or Showa
suspension parts here, but is it stuff that anyone can buy? No, it's
not, and I recall reading about situations where one factory team had
suspension or brake parts that another factory team hadn't gotten yet,
and also one factory rider using stuff that is older/inferior to what
his teammate is running. That's definitely "unobtainium" in my book.
Not that I favor that, I'm hardly part of the lynching mob on factories,
and I don't think racing production-based bikes means "stock" or
"equal". I'm just commenting on the concept and what a slippery slope it
is.
> On BSB, last year they faced the same problem the AMA faces now. A 1200
> Ducati and other 1200-2 in the wings. Spiralling costs. The factory
> Honda team leaving along with Michelin. The solution was SB chassis, WSS
> spec engines for both sizes, FIM SB homologation and a Pirelli spec
> tyre. I guess we'll see if it works.
I didn't realize that they changed chassis rules, and I don't think
homologation is the same as WSB - isn't the requirement for Ducati
something like 100 or 200 imported units? For WSB I think it's 1000
units worldwide. In any case, what they have done is to allow in another
Ducati race homologation special, and my preference would be that the
new guys over here at least give serious consideration to requiring that
Ducat race a real streetbike. Right now they don't have one, so maybe
it's a moot point. But BSB and WSB had to know what Ducati was planning
and to a large extent went along with it. Yeah, they have done this
symbolic weight penalty thing (you know, something like a third of the
weight difference between Hayden and Pedrosa, which in Europe isn't
considered material), but we all know the real story. If I recall
correctly, the WSB requirement goes up to 3000 units soon, and it will
be interesting to see if that's enough to stem the tide - maybe they'll
just change it once the spotlight has moved on...
> On SB chassis rules. In almost all cases, the major teams use Ohlins or
> WP and Brembo brakes. They get their wheels from OZ or Marchesini. If
> they need swing arm work, they get a swing arm from Harris or K Roberts.
> The one exception to this was the BSB HRC team but they're gone now.
"The major teams"?
> I don't see how any of this was unobtainium that is only available to
> the factories. It's not cheap and I can understand restricting some of
> it to keep costs down. But it's damn hard to do and actually reduce the
> costs. We're seeing this in WSS600 where you have to keep stock forks
> but can vary the fork internals which just leads to a price war on fork
> kits. There is perhaps an argument for not allowing frame, swingarm,
> linkage changes and I do think Honda (and Ducati) changing from a stock
> single sided swing arm to a double sided one shouldn't have been
> allowed. But mostly I can't see the problem with leaving SB cycle parts
> fairly free.
>
> On gearboxes, even the teams with cassette gearboxes weren't changing
> gears at the track. But all the top teams strip and rebuild engines for
> each race weekend. If the engine's apart, then changing the gears is not
> a problem. And there are quite a few suppliers who can supply alternate
> ratios or full gearboxes. Primary drive probably does have to be fixed,
> mainly because changing it will usually mean changing cranks and clutch
> baskets as well.
"The top teams"?
It all comes down to what you want to accomplish, the discussion being
about affordable racing and no unavailable parts - Edmondson's $13k
radiator comment. If you allow in a factory swingarm, under the current
rules there is no requirement that they sell it to anyone, and there is
no guarantee that even a for-sale kit arm will be what the factories are
running. Sure, you can buy one from someone else, but that isn't the
issue, is it? Yes, many or all of the factories here use Ohlins or Showa
suspension parts here, but is it stuff that anyone can buy? No, it's
not, and I recall reading about situations where one factory team had
suspension or brake parts that another factory team hadn't gotten yet,
and also one factory rider using stuff that is older/inferior to what
his teammate is running. That's definitely "unobtainium" in my book.
Not that I favor that, I'm hardly part of the lynching mob on factories,
and I don't think racing production-based bikes means "stock" or
"equal". I'm just commenting on the concept and what a slippery slope it
is.
> On BSB, last year they faced the same problem the AMA faces now. A 1200
> Ducati and other 1200-2 in the wings. Spiralling costs. The factory
> Honda team leaving along with Michelin. The solution was SB chassis, WSS
> spec engines for both sizes, FIM SB homologation and a Pirelli spec
> tyre. I guess we'll see if it works.
I didn't realize that they changed chassis rules, and I don't think
homologation is the same as WSB - isn't the requirement for Ducati
something like 100 or 200 imported units? For WSB I think it's 1000
units worldwide. In any case, what they have done is to allow in another
Ducati race homologation special, and my preference would be that the
new guys over here at least give serious consideration to requiring that
Ducat race a real streetbike. Right now they don't have one, so maybe
it's a moot point. But BSB and WSB had to know what Ducati was planning
and to a large extent went along with it. Yeah, they have done this
symbolic weight penalty thing (you know, something like a third of the
weight difference between Hayden and Pedrosa, which in Europe isn't
considered material), but we all know the real story. If I recall
correctly, the WSB requirement goes up to 3000 units soon, and it will
be interesting to see if that's enough to stem the tide - maybe they'll
just change it once the spotlight has moved on...
Julian Bond wrote:
> Will Hartung
>> Ben Bostrom went over once, but he certainly wasn't serious, as his
>> team wasn't particularly serious.
>
> Funny, that's not how I remember it. Ben hit a peak where he was pretty
> good. 5 wins on the trot?
Last time he was in WSB was 2005 and that was with the Renegade team
freshly arrived from BSB, but without the ready-to-roll Ducatis that
made them so successful there. So they struggled to build a competitive
Honda from scratch, which never happened, and Bostrom didn't have
anything in terms of meaningful results. Word back here was that he was
working very hard at it, but that's a judgment call I could hardly make.
>> Perhaps someone can tell me why Neil Hodgson is over here (again) this
>> year, and not in WSB (or BSB for that matter). I can't believe he
>> couldn't find a slot somewhere, I'm guessing it's more a money issue.
>
> Actually I don't think he could get a slot. The last two years the top
> rides on the good factory bikes were all taken.
Translation: If Hodgson ended up in the AMA it has to be because he had
no choice. Probably because he's over the hill, which also explains why
he hasn't ever beaten Mladin, who just can't have been the best SB rider
in the world, or even close. Reality: How many top seats changed hands
in BSB and WSB in the last two years? All of them? Well, not Bayliss', I
guess.
Seems pretty obvious that he targeted an American Honda rider early on,
and viewed that Corona ride at Laguna as a tryout. Certainly money was
part of it - who wants to get paid at the shitty level of WSB these
days? And BSB has got to be worse...
> What puzzles me about all this is an apparent inability to look at what
> works well elsewhere. But then this year it's all up in the air again.
> Each year we seem to see a press release about how the factories and
> reps from all the major SB championships are sitting down and trying to
> rationalise and standardise the rules. Everyone thinks this would be a
> good thing with benefits to all, and then every year, they all go their
> own way.
Lots of reasons for that. First, the world championship supplies almost
no meaningful leadership on the subject at all. Second, the
circumstances and intent of each series is different, so the best rules
package for each is likely different. Third, the only factory that I
recall complaining about it has been Ducati, and that seems like as much
an excuse or tactic as anything. Fourth, the WSB spec tire thing had
ended wildcards anyway.
The big issue at the European level in SB has been what to do about
Ducati and how to deal with their threat to pull out if 1200cc twins
weren't allowed. Given that Ducati had just bailed at the factory level
from the AMA (once again) and that AMA privateers can hardly afford a
$40k base machine, this wasn't the earth-shattering issue here that it
was across the pond. So why not wait to see how things wash out over
there and then decide?
> I guess I'll get accused of bias again, but I think BSB might just have
> got the rules right this year.
As always, everything is "just right" in BSB. Then agian, you wouldn't
be our Julian unless you're as pro-BSB as our Tom is pro-NASCAR...
We should be able to tell after half the
> season.
> - FIM points system
Definitely better than the AMA system, but there are lots of other
possibilities, and who ever even considers them?
> - WSB chassis
Which means a stock frame with no metal removed, right, and little else?
I seem to recall you advocating stock swingarms years ago, so why isn't
that your call now? If there's a place on the chassis to start cutting
costs and bring the haves closer to the have nots this might be it,
right? Then maybe things like brakes and wheels and forks could be at
least homologated, so those things don't constitute "unobtainium". The
next step is to consider making some of this stuff stock.
> - Stock crank, rods, pistons
> - WSS600 style top end, cams with stock lift but open duration.
> - Stock valve sizes
> - Stock intake
> - Unlimited head work
> - Free gearbox
Here's another are where the AMA may have it right, at least for here.
Doing internal gearing changes at the track favors big teams with two
bikes and lots of resources. The AMA allows one set of alternative
internal gearing, so stock isn't used as in SS, but it has to be
homologated. That means teams don't tear apart motors to change gearing
at the track, and private teams don't have to go through the process of
determining what gearing to use over the season, they just get that info
free from the factory team, who must be making that decision. If
everyone has the resources to be changing internal gearing on the fly,
then I suppose it's not a huge issue. But is that the case?
> - 1000cc-4, 1200cc-2
Well, the whole thing comes down to homologation, as always, and do the
Euros have that right? Again, Ducati is running a $40k homologation
special against 11-12k streetbikes, and is that fair or right? It's not
to me, the rules should be designed so that everyone is running
basically the same stuff, and right now that should be real streetbikes,
stuff you can go buy without showing a racing resume'.
> - Spec tyre
Maybe this makes some sense in BSB, where they had Michelin involved on
their usual selective basis and it may well have impacted or even
decided recent championships. But is that the case in the AMA? I don't
think the AMA SB championship has been decided or even meaningfully
impacted by tires (in this sense) in as long as I can remember, over 20
years. Maybe the closest I can recall was when Mladin ran Michelins on
his FBF Ducati in 1997 and may well have done better on Dunlops,
certainly in qualifying. But that's hardly obvious.
> - 2 SB races, 1 SS600 race and then usually three or four support races
> made up of Superstock1000, 125GP, R1 Cup, Superdukes and whatever.
> Practice on Friday and Saturday, all races on Sunday.
And races on Saturday are so terrible, why? Two races in the same class
on the same day is so fantastic, why?
> What will confuse all this is the quality of the ECU and traction
> control. But apart from that it means that the really expensive,
> unobtainium bits are outlawed and what's left is available on the open
> market.
I don't see that at all. As I said, you almost have to consider the
latest forks or shock as unobtainium, and probably brakes as well, and
factory swingarms. The electronics are a huge issue, and use of stock
systems could be one way to impact that. Although anything that can be
impacted by programming must be considered suspect.
> Will Hartung
>> Ben Bostrom went over once, but he certainly wasn't serious, as his
>> team wasn't particularly serious.
>
> Funny, that's not how I remember it. Ben hit a peak where he was pretty
> good. 5 wins on the trot?
Last time he was in WSB was 2005 and that was with the Renegade team
freshly arrived from BSB, but without the ready-to-roll Ducatis that
made them so successful there. So they struggled to build a competitive
Honda from scratch, which never happened, and Bostrom didn't have
anything in terms of meaningful results. Word back here was that he was
working very hard at it, but that's a judgment call I could hardly make.
>> Perhaps someone can tell me why Neil Hodgson is over here (again) this
>> year, and not in WSB (or BSB for that matter). I can't believe he
>> couldn't find a slot somewhere, I'm guessing it's more a money issue.
>
> Actually I don't think he could get a slot. The last two years the top
> rides on the good factory bikes were all taken.
Translation: If Hodgson ended up in the AMA it has to be because he had
no choice. Probably because he's over the hill, which also explains why
he hasn't ever beaten Mladin, who just can't have been the best SB rider
in the world, or even close. Reality: How many top seats changed hands
in BSB and WSB in the last two years? All of them? Well, not Bayliss', I
guess.
Seems pretty obvious that he targeted an American Honda rider early on,
and viewed that Corona ride at Laguna as a tryout. Certainly money was
part of it - who wants to get paid at the shitty level of WSB these
days? And BSB has got to be worse...
> What puzzles me about all this is an apparent inability to look at what
> works well elsewhere. But then this year it's all up in the air again.
> Each year we seem to see a press release about how the factories and
> reps from all the major SB championships are sitting down and trying to
> rationalise and standardise the rules. Everyone thinks this would be a
> good thing with benefits to all, and then every year, they all go their
> own way.
Lots of reasons for that. First, the world championship supplies almost
no meaningful leadership on the subject at all. Second, the
circumstances and intent of each series is different, so the best rules
package for each is likely different. Third, the only factory that I
recall complaining about it has been Ducati, and that seems like as much
an excuse or tactic as anything. Fourth, the WSB spec tire thing had
ended wildcards anyway.
The big issue at the European level in SB has been what to do about
Ducati and how to deal with their threat to pull out if 1200cc twins
weren't allowed. Given that Ducati had just bailed at the factory level
from the AMA (once again) and that AMA privateers can hardly afford a
$40k base machine, this wasn't the earth-shattering issue here that it
was across the pond. So why not wait to see how things wash out over
there and then decide?
> I guess I'll get accused of bias again, but I think BSB might just have
> got the rules right this year.
As always, everything is "just right" in BSB. Then agian, you wouldn't
be our Julian unless you're as pro-BSB as our Tom is pro-NASCAR...
We should be able to tell after half the
> season.
> - FIM points system
Definitely better than the AMA system, but there are lots of other
possibilities, and who ever even considers them?
> - WSB chassis
Which means a stock frame with no metal removed, right, and little else?
I seem to recall you advocating stock swingarms years ago, so why isn't
that your call now? If there's a place on the chassis to start cutting
costs and bring the haves closer to the have nots this might be it,
right? Then maybe things like brakes and wheels and forks could be at
least homologated, so those things don't constitute "unobtainium". The
next step is to consider making some of this stuff stock.
> - Stock crank, rods, pistons
> - WSS600 style top end, cams with stock lift but open duration.
> - Stock valve sizes
> - Stock intake
> - Unlimited head work
> - Free gearbox
Here's another are where the AMA may have it right, at least for here.
Doing internal gearing changes at the track favors big teams with two
bikes and lots of resources. The AMA allows one set of alternative
internal gearing, so stock isn't used as in SS, but it has to be
homologated. That means teams don't tear apart motors to change gearing
at the track, and private teams don't have to go through the process of
determining what gearing to use over the season, they just get that info
free from the factory team, who must be making that decision. If
everyone has the resources to be changing internal gearing on the fly,
then I suppose it's not a huge issue. But is that the case?
> - 1000cc-4, 1200cc-2
Well, the whole thing comes down to homologation, as always, and do the
Euros have that right? Again, Ducati is running a $40k homologation
special against 11-12k streetbikes, and is that fair or right? It's not
to me, the rules should be designed so that everyone is running
basically the same stuff, and right now that should be real streetbikes,
stuff you can go buy without showing a racing resume'.
> - Spec tyre
Maybe this makes some sense in BSB, where they had Michelin involved on
their usual selective basis and it may well have impacted or even
decided recent championships. But is that the case in the AMA? I don't
think the AMA SB championship has been decided or even meaningfully
impacted by tires (in this sense) in as long as I can remember, over 20
years. Maybe the closest I can recall was when Mladin ran Michelins on
his FBF Ducati in 1997 and may well have done better on Dunlops,
certainly in qualifying. But that's hardly obvious.
> - 2 SB races, 1 SS600 race and then usually three or four support races
> made up of Superstock1000, 125GP, R1 Cup, Superdukes and whatever.
> Practice on Friday and Saturday, all races on Sunday.
And races on Saturday are so terrible, why? Two races in the same class
on the same day is so fantastic, why?
> What will confuse all this is the quality of the ECU and traction
> control. But apart from that it means that the really expensive,
> unobtainium bits are outlawed and what's left is available on the open
> market.
I don't see that at all. As I said, you almost have to consider the
latest forks or shock as unobtainium, and probably brakes as well, and
factory swingarms. The electronics are a huge issue, and use of stock
systems could be one way to impact that. Although anything that can be
impacted by programming must be considered suspect.
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:53:52 -0700, Mark N
<menusbaum@NYETSPAMearthlink . net > wrote:
>Given that Ducati had just bailed at the factory level
>from the AMA (once again) and that AMA privateers can hardly afford a
>$40k base machine..
Is this really true - that a privateer running at national level in
the US can't afford a $40k machine? If so, this must be a indicator
of the lack of sponsorship available in the US - some people running
at *club* level in the UK have bikes of that value.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
<menusbaum@NYETSPAMearthlink . net > wrote:
>Given that Ducati had just bailed at the factory level
>from the AMA (once again) and that AMA privateers can hardly afford a
>$40k base machine..
Is this really true - that a privateer running at national level in
the US can't afford a $40k machine? If so, this must be a indicator
of the lack of sponsorship available in the US - some people running
at *club* level in the UK have bikes of that value.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
Champ wrote:
Mark N wrote:
>
>> Given that Ducati had just bailed at the factory level
>>from the AMA (once again) and that AMA privateers can hardly afford a
>> $40k base machine..
>
> Is this really true - that a privateer running at national level in
> the US can't afford a $40k machine? If so, this must be a indicator
> of the lack of sponsorship available in the US - some people running
> at *club* level in the UK have bikes of that value.
I'm not really sure what teams can afford and what they can't. It's more
of a comment on the fact that the lower half of the field now are
apparently running their SStock bikes in SB, which means a bike with all
the allowable mods that costs less than $40k. That may be a function of
an insufficient number of teams really interested in doing SB, which
means the back of the grid is made up of guys who want to get in some
more track time and pick up a pay check. Or maybe some of them want to
do SB but can't afford to build a real SB and want to get in the added
track time in SStock, so build to that limitation.
But from a practical standpoint, who is going to run a $40k Ducati in SB
if they don't have the factory model, given the added cost and the added
difficulties in modifying it for SB to make it moderately competitive,
etc.? That's been a traditional problem in the AMA and since the end of
the Pro Twins class I bet I could count the number of truly private
Ducatis on the SB grids on one hand.
What could be the greater issue is who fills those grid spots next year
when SStock is gone. I guess turning SB into SS solves the problem...
Mark N wrote:
>
>> Given that Ducati had just bailed at the factory level
>>from the AMA (once again) and that AMA privateers can hardly afford a
>> $40k base machine..
>
> Is this really true - that a privateer running at national level in
> the US can't afford a $40k machine? If so, this must be a indicator
> of the lack of sponsorship available in the US - some people running
> at *club* level in the UK have bikes of that value.
I'm not really sure what teams can afford and what they can't. It's more
of a comment on the fact that the lower half of the field now are
apparently running their SStock bikes in SB, which means a bike with all
the allowable mods that costs less than $40k. That may be a function of
an insufficient number of teams really interested in doing SB, which
means the back of the grid is made up of guys who want to get in some
more track time and pick up a pay check. Or maybe some of them want to
do SB but can't afford to build a real SB and want to get in the added
track time in SStock, so build to that limitation.
But from a practical standpoint, who is going to run a $40k Ducati in SB
if they don't have the factory model, given the added cost and the added
difficulties in modifying it for SB to make it moderately competitive,
etc.? That's been a traditional problem in the AMA and since the end of
the Pro Twins class I bet I could count the number of truly private
Ducatis on the SB grids on one hand.
What could be the greater issue is who fills those grid spots next year
when SStock is gone. I guess turning SB into SS solves the problem...
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 06:18:56 -0700, Mark N
<menusbaum@NYETSPAMearthlink . net > wrote:
>Champ wrote:
>Mark N wrote:
>>
>>> Given that Ducati had just bailed at the factory level
>>>from the AMA (once again) and that AMA privateers can hardly afford a
>>> $40k base machine..
>>
>> Is this really true - that a privateer running at national level in
>> the US can't afford a $40k machine? If so, this must be a indicator
>> of the lack of sponsorship available in the US - some people running
>> at *club* level in the UK have bikes of that value.
>
>I'm not really sure what teams can afford and what they can't.
Ah. So your statement was a bit of kite flying, then.
>It's more
>of a comment on the fact that the lower half of the field now are
>apparently running their SStock bikes in SB
Which in turn means that AMA can't get a full grid of 'real'
superbikes?
MCN's main racing story today (annoyingly not on their web site) is
that the 1098R is likely to be excluded from the British super*stock*
championship, with several riders complaining that they've already
bought and prep'd their bikes. That's a support class for the main
BSB championship, and yet riders are able to secure sponsorship to
purchase a bike with a list price of £24,000 - that's close to $50k
dollars.
Which once again points at a culture here that can support bike racing
with the money required.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
<menusbaum@NYETSPAMearthlink . net > wrote:
>Champ wrote:
>Mark N wrote:
>>
>>> Given that Ducati had just bailed at the factory level
>>>from the AMA (once again) and that AMA privateers can hardly afford a
>>> $40k base machine..
>>
>> Is this really true - that a privateer running at national level in
>> the US can't afford a $40k machine? If so, this must be a indicator
>> of the lack of sponsorship available in the US - some people running
>> at *club* level in the UK have bikes of that value.
>
>I'm not really sure what teams can afford and what they can't.
Ah. So your statement was a bit of kite flying, then.
>It's more
>of a comment on the fact that the lower half of the field now are
>apparently running their SStock bikes in SB
Which in turn means that AMA can't get a full grid of 'real'
superbikes?
MCN's main racing story today (annoyingly not on their web site) is
that the 1098R is likely to be excluded from the British super*stock*
championship, with several riders complaining that they've already
bought and prep'd their bikes. That's a support class for the main
BSB championship, and yet riders are able to secure sponsorship to
purchase a bike with a list price of £24,000 - that's close to $50k
dollars.
Which once again points at a culture here that can support bike racing
with the money required.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
Champ wrote:
> Mark N wrote:
>> It's more
>> of a comment on the fact that the lower half of the field now are
>> apparently running their SStock bikes in SB
>
> Which in turn means that AMA can't get a full grid of 'real'
> superbikes?
It's hard to say, because the AMA has had a SB crossover class, SStock,
for so long that we can't even tell. That class might actually be having
the effect of damping down the level of mods on private SBs back on the
grid. But the elimination of that class should tell us - you want to
ride a 1000, you do it in SB. If the rules in SB and SStock had made
those classes mutually exclusive, I do not think there would have been
very full SB grids, though.
> MCN's main racing story today (annoyingly not on their web site) is
> that the 1098R is likely to be excluded from the British super*stock*
> championship, with several riders complaining that they've already
> bought and prep'd their bikes. That's a support class for the main
> BSB championship, and yet riders are able to secure sponsorship to
> purchase a bike with a list price of £24,000 - that's close to $50k
> dollars.
>
> Which once again points at a culture here that can support bike racing
> with the money required.
Right, and a potential reason for that: we always here how you guys get
to watch racing on TV without commercial breaks. But if TV generally
doesn't have commercials (I don't really know how it works over there),
that puts a massive amount of advertising dollars out there looking for
a home. Over here I couldn't even guess how much money goes into TV
advertising, but it must be greater than the gross national product of
the vast majority of nations in the world. Now that has absolutely
nothing to do with bike racing, but it could be having a huge impact on
it. Think about what tobacco did after conventional advertising was
banned and how that benefited racing.
> Mark N wrote:
>> It's more
>> of a comment on the fact that the lower half of the field now are
>> apparently running their SStock bikes in SB
>
> Which in turn means that AMA can't get a full grid of 'real'
> superbikes?
It's hard to say, because the AMA has had a SB crossover class, SStock,
for so long that we can't even tell. That class might actually be having
the effect of damping down the level of mods on private SBs back on the
grid. But the elimination of that class should tell us - you want to
ride a 1000, you do it in SB. If the rules in SB and SStock had made
those classes mutually exclusive, I do not think there would have been
very full SB grids, though.
> MCN's main racing story today (annoyingly not on their web site) is
> that the 1098R is likely to be excluded from the British super*stock*
> championship, with several riders complaining that they've already
> bought and prep'd their bikes. That's a support class for the main
> BSB championship, and yet riders are able to secure sponsorship to
> purchase a bike with a list price of £24,000 - that's close to $50k
> dollars.
>
> Which once again points at a culture here that can support bike racing
> with the money required.
Right, and a potential reason for that: we always here how you guys get
to watch racing on TV without commercial breaks. But if TV generally
doesn't have commercials (I don't really know how it works over there),
that puts a massive amount of advertising dollars out there looking for
a home. Over here I couldn't even guess how much money goes into TV
advertising, but it must be greater than the gross national product of
the vast majority of nations in the world. Now that has absolutely
nothing to do with bike racing, but it could be having a huge impact on
it. Think about what tobacco did after conventional advertising was
banned and how that benefited racing.
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:03:01 -0700, Mark N
<menusbaum@NYETSPAMearthlink . net > wrote:
>>> It's more
>>> of a comment on the fact that the lower half of the field now are
>>> apparently running their SStock bikes in SB
>>
>> Which in turn means that AMA can't get a full grid of 'real'
>> superbikes?
>
>It's hard to say, because the AMA has had a SB crossover class, SStock,
>for so long that we can't even tell. That class might actually be having
>the effect of damping down the level of mods on private SBs back on the
>grid. But the elimination of that class should tell us - you want to
>ride a 1000, you do it in SB. If the rules in SB and SStock had made
>those classes mutually exclusive, I do not think there would have been
>very full SB grids, though.
In the UK we have SStock as well as SB, but I'm not aware of *amy*
riders running their Sstock bikes in both races. I'm not sure they're
even allowed.
>> Which once again points at a culture here that can support bike racing
>> with the money required.
>
>Right, and a potential reason for that: we always here how you guys get
>to watch racing on TV without commercial breaks. But if TV generally
>doesn't have commercials (I don't really know how it works over there)
Let's nip this one in the bud - there's only one TV provider in the UK
that doesn't carry ads, and that's the BBC. It essentially has two
channels (there's two more digital ones, but they don't carry any sort
of sport). All the other channels have advertsiing, or are
pay-per-view, or both. As far as the BSB series is concerned, it is
broadcast on the advertising funded ITV channels. But just not with
ad breaks during the races themselves :-)
>that puts a massive amount of advertising dollars out there looking for
>a home.
As explained, I don't think this is the driver. And I think the BBC
is pretty unique in the world, so, for example, all the TV in Spain
and Italy is funded by advertising. And those countries have *loads*
of bike racing on TV.
But anyway, this is all an aside. The Superstock guys I mentioned
that are running (or hoping to run) expensive Ducati 1098Rs don't get
any TV time anyway, cos generally only the SB races are broadcast.
So, the culture can support people running bikes that expensive in a
*support* class with *no* TV coverage.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
<menusbaum@NYETSPAMearthlink . net > wrote:
>>> It's more
>>> of a comment on the fact that the lower half of the field now are
>>> apparently running their SStock bikes in SB
>>
>> Which in turn means that AMA can't get a full grid of 'real'
>> superbikes?
>
>It's hard to say, because the AMA has had a SB crossover class, SStock,
>for so long that we can't even tell. That class might actually be having
>the effect of damping down the level of mods on private SBs back on the
>grid. But the elimination of that class should tell us - you want to
>ride a 1000, you do it in SB. If the rules in SB and SStock had made
>those classes mutually exclusive, I do not think there would have been
>very full SB grids, though.
In the UK we have SStock as well as SB, but I'm not aware of *amy*
riders running their Sstock bikes in both races. I'm not sure they're
even allowed.
>> Which once again points at a culture here that can support bike racing
>> with the money required.
>
>Right, and a potential reason for that: we always here how you guys get
>to watch racing on TV without commercial breaks. But if TV generally
>doesn't have commercials (I don't really know how it works over there)
Let's nip this one in the bud - there's only one TV provider in the UK
that doesn't carry ads, and that's the BBC. It essentially has two
channels (there's two more digital ones, but they don't carry any sort
of sport). All the other channels have advertsiing, or are
pay-per-view, or both. As far as the BSB series is concerned, it is
broadcast on the advertising funded ITV channels. But just not with
ad breaks during the races themselves :-)
>that puts a massive amount of advertising dollars out there looking for
>a home.
As explained, I don't think this is the driver. And I think the BBC
is pretty unique in the world, so, for example, all the TV in Spain
and Italy is funded by advertising. And those countries have *loads*
of bike racing on TV.
But anyway, this is all an aside. The Superstock guys I mentioned
that are running (or hoping to run) expensive Ducati 1098Rs don't get
any TV time anyway, cos generally only the SB races are broadcast.
So, the culture can support people running bikes that expensive in a
*support* class with *no* TV coverage.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
Champ wrote:
> Mark N wrote:
> >It's hard to say, because the AMA has had a SB crossover class, SStock,
> >for so long that we can't even tell. That class might actually be having
> >the effect of damping down the level of mods on private SBs back on the
> >grid. But the elimination of that class should tell us - you want to
> >ride a 1000, you do it in SB. If the rules in SB and SStock had made
> >those classes mutually exclusive, I do not think there would have been
> >very full SB grids, though.
>
> In the UK we have SStock as well as SB, but I'm not aware of *amy*
> riders running their Sstock bikes in both races. I'm not sure they're
> even allowed.
Yeah, that's the impression I've had. Also not sure what drives that -
rules that don't allow it for the riders, rules that make it
impractical (SStock as a novice class or something), rules that
exclude the bikes, historical development of the classes, or whatever.
In the AMA it's always been allowed (except for factory riders being
in both classes when SStock was increased to 1000cc) and there have
never been enough "true SBs" with good enough riders to drive the SS
guys off the grid.
> >Right, and a potential reason for that: we always here how you guys get
> >to watch racing on TV without commercial breaks. But if TV generally
> >doesn't have commercials (I don't really know how it works over there)
>
> Let's nip this one in the bud - there's only one TV provider in the UK
> that doesn't carry ads, and that's the BBC. It essentially has two
> channels (there's two more digital ones, but they don't carry any sort
> of sport). All the other channels have advertsiing, or are
> pay-per-view, or both. As far as the BSB series is concerned, it is
> broadcast on the advertising funded ITV channels. But just not with
> ad breaks during the races themselves :-)
Interesting, I never heard the real story before. Still, the cultural
aspect of advertising outlets and the like can effect where money is
spent. My guess is that the low-life image of bikes over here (a more
car-focused culture, the "Easy Rider effect") probably impacts the
interest level for potential sponsors, and what's left that's
interested in racing must mostly get sucked up by Nascar.
> As explained, I don't think this is the driver. And I think the BBC
> is pretty unique in the world, so, for example, all the TV in Spain
> and Italy is funded by advertising. And those countries have *loads*
> of bike racing on TV.
You'd earlier said bike racing is huge in Spain, 2nd only to football,
but I'd offer a correction on that. GP racing is huge in Spain, and
perhaps also two-stroke racing in general, but to a lesser extent. But
WSB has always struggled to build there, and their national
championship has never been considered one of the few major ones in
the world, and doesn't even run superbikes - I think SStock is the
feature class. So their interest only goes so far, it seems.
> But anyway, this is all an aside. The Superstock guys I mentioned
> that are running (or hoping to run) expensive Ducati 1098Rs don't get
> any TV time anyway, cos generally only the SB races are broadcast.
> So, the culture can support people running bikes that expensive in a
> *support* class with *no* TV coverage.
That kind of thing actually might be more likely here than SB, but the
AMA never did allow Ducatis of higher displacement into the SS
classes. Had they allowed the 748 or 749 into SSport, I have to
believe there would have been someone running them. They may have cost
twice what a 600 costs, but beyond that it's not massively more
expensive. There have been some Ducs in FX consistently since it went
middleweight, and the factory team never ran them.
> Mark N wrote:
> >It's hard to say, because the AMA has had a SB crossover class, SStock,
> >for so long that we can't even tell. That class might actually be having
> >the effect of damping down the level of mods on private SBs back on the
> >grid. But the elimination of that class should tell us - you want to
> >ride a 1000, you do it in SB. If the rules in SB and SStock had made
> >those classes mutually exclusive, I do not think there would have been
> >very full SB grids, though.
>
> In the UK we have SStock as well as SB, but I'm not aware of *amy*
> riders running their Sstock bikes in both races. I'm not sure they're
> even allowed.
Yeah, that's the impression I've had. Also not sure what drives that -
rules that don't allow it for the riders, rules that make it
impractical (SStock as a novice class or something), rules that
exclude the bikes, historical development of the classes, or whatever.
In the AMA it's always been allowed (except for factory riders being
in both classes when SStock was increased to 1000cc) and there have
never been enough "true SBs" with good enough riders to drive the SS
guys off the grid.
> >Right, and a potential reason for that: we always here how you guys get
> >to watch racing on TV without commercial breaks. But if TV generally
> >doesn't have commercials (I don't really know how it works over there)
>
> Let's nip this one in the bud - there's only one TV provider in the UK
> that doesn't carry ads, and that's the BBC. It essentially has two
> channels (there's two more digital ones, but they don't carry any sort
> of sport). All the other channels have advertsiing, or are
> pay-per-view, or both. As far as the BSB series is concerned, it is
> broadcast on the advertising funded ITV channels. But just not with
> ad breaks during the races themselves :-)
Interesting, I never heard the real story before. Still, the cultural
aspect of advertising outlets and the like can effect where money is
spent. My guess is that the low-life image of bikes over here (a more
car-focused culture, the "Easy Rider effect") probably impacts the
interest level for potential sponsors, and what's left that's
interested in racing must mostly get sucked up by Nascar.
> As explained, I don't think this is the driver. And I think the BBC
> is pretty unique in the world, so, for example, all the TV in Spain
> and Italy is funded by advertising. And those countries have *loads*
> of bike racing on TV.
You'd earlier said bike racing is huge in Spain, 2nd only to football,
but I'd offer a correction on that. GP racing is huge in Spain, and
perhaps also two-stroke racing in general, but to a lesser extent. But
WSB has always struggled to build there, and their national
championship has never been considered one of the few major ones in
the world, and doesn't even run superbikes - I think SStock is the
feature class. So their interest only goes so far, it seems.
> But anyway, this is all an aside. The Superstock guys I mentioned
> that are running (or hoping to run) expensive Ducati 1098Rs don't get
> any TV time anyway, cos generally only the SB races are broadcast.
> So, the culture can support people running bikes that expensive in a
> *support* class with *no* TV coverage.
That kind of thing actually might be more likely here than SB, but the
AMA never did allow Ducatis of higher displacement into the SS
classes. Had they allowed the 748 or 749 into SSport, I have to
believe there would have been someone running them. They may have cost
twice what a 600 costs, but beyond that it's not massively more
expensive. There have been some Ducs in FX consistently since it went
middleweight, and the factory team never ran them.
