And away we go!

And away we go!

* w w w .cyclenews . com /ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=1216

"The Daytona Motorsports Group outlined its plans for the AMA Road
Racing Championship for 2009 and beyond in a meeting held with the
teams this afternoon at the Barber Motorsports Park in Alabama - with
the plan based on three major classes and a fourth spec-class.

The three classes will be Daytona Superbike, Literbike and Moto-ST,
though it is not totally clear which class will be the headliner. The
Daytona Superbike class, which will feature Òtwo-cylinder,
three-cylinder, and four-cylinder machines of similar performance,Ó
will be run on both Saturday and Sunday, leading us to believe that it
will be the featured event on the weekend.

According to the information shown to the teams, Daytona Superbikes
will feature: 1. Homologated and available motorcycles; 2. Middleweight
performance horsepower limits; 3. Targeted and specified
power-to-weight ratio (combined rider and machine weights); 4. A single
tire manufacturer; 5. A single fuel supplier; 6. Regular ECU (the black
box) exchanges; and 7. Homologated, available, affordable aftermarket
components only.

According to DMG, Daytona Superbikes will feature eligible motorcycles
from 10 brands: Aprilia, BMW, Buell, Ducati, Honda, Kawasaki, KTM,
Suzuki, Triumph and Yamaha.

Literbike will feature the following: 1. Manufacturer homologated
motorcycles; 2. Industry/AMA developed rules for 2009 and 2010; 3.
Single tire supplier; 4. Single fuel supplier; 5. Specified minimum
participation level required to maintain eligibility; 6. Maximum
participation level specified; 7. Professional riders.

What DMG calls a ÒMaster or Class 1 licenseÓ is mandatory for both
Daytona Superbike and Literbike.

Moto-ST will feature three classes run simultaneously with a spec tire
and spec fuel rule, and all bikes will be twins. Riders in Moto-ST are
required to have what DMG calls a Class 1 or 2 license for the Super
Sport Twins class (120 horsepower/400 pounds), while a Class 3 license
is required for the Grand Sport Twins (90 horsepower/380 pounds) and
the Super Sport Twins class (75 horsepower/360 pounds).

The events themselves will consist of three days. Fridays will be
move-in day and will also feature a one-hour practice for Daytona
Superbikes, a one-hour Literbike practice and a two-hour Moto-ST
practice; Saturday will have practice and qualifying for all classes,
the first of two Daytona Superbike races and a 250-mile Moto-ST race;
Sunday will feature warm-up practice for Daytona Superbikes and the
Rookies Cup (what DMG is currently calling its spec class), the second
of two Daytona Superbike races, the Rookies Cup race and the Literbike
race.

Other details released today include the fact that two-way radio
systems will be mandatory; rolling starts will be used when appropriate
and there will be Òtransparent rules enforcement.Ó

Not so bad now, huh?

Re: And away we go!

T3 wrote:
> * w w w .cyclenews . com /ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=1216

...

> Not so bad now, huh?

Well, maybe, maybe not :-). Really depends on who wants to play, and how
they want to play.

Moto-ST -- THIS is "NasBike" in its purest form. For the moment simple
rules, but it's basically built to be run like NASCAR.

Specifically, red flags are gone (well, almost), replaced with pace
cars. I think they will strive for pace cars, frankly, because it lets
everyone catch up. 250 miles means at least 3 pit stops, so all sorts of
opportunity to mess something up and, again, close up the pack. The
primary goals of this is to encourage bringing the pack close together.
Everything is more "interesting" when the bikes are close together.

Next, it will run with no delays, in a specific time -- which means it
will be TV "friendly". Always starts on time, always runs the same
length of time. The rolling starts ensure that the race starts on time,
no stuck bikes in traffic. Unless, of course, it rains. Then they lose
the entire show.

The dark side, at least for the Japanese, is that they don't make any
bikes that run this class, at least not at the top level. Honda has
nothing for any of the classes, Yamaha doesn't I don't think. Kawasaki
and Suzuki both have middleweight entries, but nothing at the top end.
That's going to be Ducatis and maybe old Honda RVTs and Suzuki V1000's.
The question is whether they'll try and bring something back to
participate in the series. Mind, they don't necessarily need to
participate (with a sponsored team), but it would be nice to see bike
that is less than 10 years old running, I think. Maybe this is BMWs
show, I dunno.

I think, personally, this will be a hard race to watch. Just too damn
long. Who knows. And I don't know if anyone we watch today will be
riding in it. Also, there's the keeping track of the 3 different classes
in the same race. If ST doesn't catch my eye, I know for sure I won't go
to the track to just watch an FX 2.0 race, so Saturdays may well be a
write off as far as participation goes.

LiterBike, that's the Manufacturers graveyard. "Factories must field 4
riders", "Professional Riders". I'll be curious to understand what the
definition of "factory" is. Why will, say, American Honda be a "factory"
team over Erion, for example. What can't the manufacturer do. For
example, 2 years ago, American Honda was helping out Erion to help Josh
Hayes win FX over Yamaha, would that help be disqualified today? Over in
WSB is Ten Kate closer to American Honda or to Erion? We know there are
"no factories" over in WSB (save Ducati), but at the same time, the
Yamaha Factory Team this year is running Italian "non-factory" bikes.
So, what does "factory" mean to trigger the 4 man rule.

And how is "professional racer" defined? Does that mean that if Michael
Jordan wanted to race, personally, he couldn't? Because he funds it
himself? So, that will be interesting to see.

But this is the factory graveyard. This is the bone tossed to them to
keep them in play for the next 2 years. There's nothing that says that
they have to pay all their riders the same (well, I assume not), nor do
they have to give them all the same bikes. Mladin and Spies can get the
best bikes, parts, and etc, and the "other two" could have weaker bikes,
etc, costing less money. Basically, the factory team has two parts: the
top level team and "up and coming team". Rather than farm them to
SStock, just run them at a lower level in LiterBike.

Now, for DSB, the question basically becomes whether the factories will
play, and I think they will. The 600 market is too important to them to
not play in DSB. Making it FX style fits in to more what Honda wants to
do, as they're really not in to selling race bikes on the street.

So, I can easily see the factories, Erions, and Attacks playing, while
the back markers will be the dogs breakfast of contraptions that FX is
today.

The other wild card is how DMG packages it up for TV. They can
marginalize the factories even more by bundling the LB series with the
Red Bull thing (I won't watch that either, just no interest in watching
15 year olds on 125's).

The other unknown is the games of catchup that all the teams will need
to play each round, as the rules change underneath them. DMG will be
tweaking the knobs every weekend I fear.

It will be interesting each round to watch them tie more and more cinder
blocks, bowling balls, and old railroad ties to Mladin and Spies until
they reach "parity".

But, as a spectator, I will have to just embrace this year, as I fear
this will be the fastest these bikes will ever go. Next year, they're
slowing down, and DMG has no interest in advancing the art. Every year
we see the bikes get faster, lap times go down, tire and suspension
improvements, all of those factor in to reduced lap times. Hell, even GP
is going faster this year, and they lost 190cc over 2 years ago..

Looking on the web today, I found that the lap record at the Daytona 500
was set in '87, before restrictor plates. Post plates, it was set in
'88. That's 20 years ago.

DMGs goal is parity, "close racing", and TV schedules. As they've
repeated over and over, they're not in the motorcycle business. So,
advancing motorcycles isn't there goal. Their goal is to improve
entertainment. Perhaps by adding chairs, breaking tables, and "The Steel
Octagon" will help.

Talking to a colleague, we were comparing tracks and performance. In
Europe, as the cars and bikes got faster, they reworked and redesigned
the tracks to add more run off, more room for vehicles leave the track
and, ideally, decelerate safely.

Here, we build stronger walls, and slow the vehicles down. The only art
being advanced is teams finding ways around the rule book.

Yes, motorsport is bigger in Europe, but it's still an interesting
observation.

None of this matters until '09. I will watch Daytona with interest. It
will be interesting watching DMG convince SpeedTV to run both a 250 and
200 mile race on TV that weekend.

As you say, Tom, it's great drama.

Regards,

Will Hartung

Re: And away we go!

Will Hartung wrote:
> T3 wrote:

>
> Moto-ST -- THIS is "NasBike" in its purest form. For the moment simple
> rules, but it's basically built to be run like NASCAR.

> I think, personally, this will be a hard race to watch. Just too damn
> long. Who knows. And I don't know if anyone we watch today will be
> riding in it. Also, there's the keeping track of the 3 different classes
> in the same race. If ST doesn't catch my eye, I know for sure I won't go
> to the track to just watch an FX 2.0 race, so Saturdays may well be a
> write off as far as participation goes.

I've seen a few endurance races run at AMA events before, a long time
ago, and I think they do just end up a buzz kill. Part of it is it's
just so damned esoteric, really run only for the guys racing. My notion
of endurance at an event like this would be to run it overnight, start
on Saturday after the last sprint race and run until the first warmup on
Sunday. That might be interesting, watching it as you wind down on
Saturday and then catching the end first thing Sunday. But three hours
right in the heart of things on Saturday afternoon? I just can't see it,
especially since it's all dog-slow bikes, and guys you never heard of.

> LiterBike, that's the Manufacturers graveyard. "Factories must field 4
> riders", "Professional Riders". I'll be curious to understand what the
> definition of "factory" is. Why will, say, American Honda be a "factory"
> team over Erion, for example. What can't the manufacturer do. For
> example, 2 years ago, American Honda was helping out Erion to help Josh
> Hayes win FX over Yamaha, would that help be disqualified today? Over in
> WSB is Ten Kate closer to American Honda or to Erion? We know there are
> "no factories" over in WSB (save Ducati), but at the same time, the
> Yamaha Factory Team this year is running Italian "non-factory" bikes.
> So, what does "factory" mean to trigger the 4 man rule.

"Factory" to NASBike means "the assholes we want to screw, particularly
the yellow ones", it seems.

> And how is "professional racer" defined? Does that mean that if Michael
> Jordan wanted to race, personally, he couldn't? Because he funds it
> himself? So, that will be interesting to see.

One would think it's the difference between serious, experienced
national-level racers and the rest, but the problem here is that there
is no class for young guys starting out (beyond the 13 to 16-year-olds,
that is), and no class for the one-off club drop-ins. That is a huge
hole in this structure.

> But this is the factory graveyard. This is the bone tossed to them to
> keep them in play for the next 2 years. There's nothing that says that
> they have to pay all their riders the same (well, I assume not), nor do
> they have to give them all the same bikes. Mladin and Spies can get the
> best bikes, parts, and etc, and the "other two" could have weaker bikes,
> etc, costing less money. Basically, the factory team has two parts: the
> top level team and "up and coming team". Rather than farm them to
> SStock, just run them at a lower level in LiterBike.

I'm certain this class wasn't intended a week ago, and they don't want
it to last. Shit, they may be hoping that the factories don't show, so
they can throw it back in their faces. And why would the factories
bother to show anyway? It's not the feature class, it runs only one
race, and what about TV? France practically owns Speed, so do you think
this class will get prime airtime? My guess is run on Tuesday, if at
all. They added this class only to avoid a full factory walkout and so
they could tell fans SB is still on the bill, but they did it kicking
and screaming all the way. If there ever has been a situation where a
series had this level of disdain for its own child, tell me about it.

But that they had to add it says an awful lot about how arrogant and
disconnected these guys are, how much they misjudged the situation.

> Now, for DSB, the question basically becomes whether the factories will
> play, and I think they will. The 600 market is too important to them to
> not play in DSB. Making it FX style fits in to more what Honda wants to
> do, as they're really not in to selling race bikes on the street.
>
> So, I can easily see the factories, Erions, and Attacks playing, while
> the back markers will be the dogs breakfast of contraptions that FX is
> today.

I think where you may be misjudging this is what DMG plans to do with
this class regarding the Japanese factories. If the factories show and
the rules are balanced, the Japanese will win everything, because
they'll have the best teams and best riders - do you think any other OEM
will show with a factory effort? But then DMG will alter the playing
field to balance things, because they want everyone to have a shot, and
they will keep doing that. So this could well end up a situation where
someone with a half-assed effort on a non-Japanese bike could end up
champion, someone like Pegram on the Ducati, or maybe Jordan if he does
the smart thing and runs a Buell or Aprilia or something along those
lines. Because DMG doesn't want the 600s winning everything, it may well
hardly pay to make a factory effort. And the Japanese want to race each
other, the ones they compete against on the showroom floor, and not some
$12-15k Eurobike - remember when they got their own 250GP bikes booted
from FX?

> The other wild card is how DMG packages it up for TV. They can
> marginalize the factories even more by bundling the LB series with the
> Red Bull thing (I won't watch that either, just no interest in watching
> 15 year olds on 125's).

Yep...

> The other unknown is the games of catchup that all the teams will need
> to play each round, as the rules change underneath them. DMG will be
> tweaking the knobs every weekend I fear.

Absolutely. What I think we have now is almost open warfare between DMG
and The Japanese OEMs, and I really don't know why DMG has chosen to go
this route. It may just be past bad blood between Edmondson and the
OEMs, but it strikes me as a huge mistake.

> It will be interesting each round to watch them tie more and more cinder
> blocks, bowling balls, and old railroad ties to Mladin and Spies until
> they reach "parity".

Except I doubt that either one will be here...

> But, as a spectator, I will have to just embrace this year, as I fear
> this will be the fastest these bikes will ever go. Next year, they're
> slowing down, and DMG has no interest in advancing the art. Every year
> we see the bikes get faster, lap times go down, tire and suspension
> improvements, all of those factor in to reduced lap times. Hell, even GP
> is going faster this year, and they lost 190cc over 2 years ago..
>
> Looking on the web today, I found that the lap record at the Daytona 500
> was set in '87, before restrictor plates. Post plates, it was set in
> '88. That's 20 years ago.
>
> DMGs goal is parity, "close racing", and TV schedules. As they've
> repeated over and over, they're not in the motorcycle business. So,
> advancing motorcycles isn't there goal. Their goal is to improve
> entertainment. Perhaps by adding chairs, breaking tables, and "The Steel
> Octagon" will help.

Yep, it's a little like discovering your girlfriend has decided to
become a prostitute - "Hey, honey, it's not about love, it's about
entertainment and making money"...

What amazes me about all this is how damned weak the whole plan is. They
buy this series, they have all this time to make some plan, and they
come up with the crap endurance class they already run, add in their
D200 class (of course) but bastardized with their endurance formula, and
the only thing else they had prior to the last week was a TBD class that
will be the Red Bull series most of the time? It strikes me that they've
hardly thought about this, the main thing being how to really screw the
OEMs.

So if the factories pull out, and I do think that's still possible, who
is going to race? Not all those guys who race SS-type bikes in the clubs
and in the AMA, the bread-and-butter of racing in this country. I
suppose the OEMs would still back the Erions and Attacks and Graves in
Daytona Crapperbike, they'd likely keep something of a hand in. But who
else? And if the factory teams do that class, why would they keep these
top support teams around?

> As you say, Tom, it's great drama.

Yeah, but mostly in the sense of watching a toe infection spread up your
leg...

Re: And away we go!

On 2008-04-18 00:23:59 -0400, Will Hartung <redrocks@sbcglobal . net > said:

> T3 wrote:
>> * w w w .cyclenews . com /ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=1216
>
> ...
>
> {snipped good stuff}
>
> As you say, Tom, it's great drama.
>
> Regards,
>
> Will Hartung

I toldya, this has been good from the get go and I mean back when they
started firing folks and calling the law. The great part is it doesn't
really matter whether you like, or dislike what's happening, it's
watching how the whole deal unfolds that makes it interesting, sorta
like a racing/BSG thing, or a soap opera, if you will. Anyway, I agree
with most of the above, but would add, the devil is in the details and
until I see a real life rule book I'll hold off trying to form an
opinion. Too many times I've heard one thing only for it to morph a
"little" before it hit print. Though TBH the DSB power/weight thing
sorta' jumped out at me, not sure I'm down with that, but we'll see.
(Do you know someone that will be happy about weighing the riders with
the bikes?;-)
ST has big downside AFAIC, it's kinda long for slow bikes and running 3
classes, not to mention all levels of riders together makes it
extremely confusing, especially when you don't know much about the
bikes. Red Bull? What_ever. Litre class, tell you what, I was kinda'
surprised, everything I'd heard of late was pointing to a Machiavellian
type thing, do it all at once and be done with it, so, maybe MN was
right for once(without his dramatics) and the Nip OEM's did save the
day, err, year, or so. I still see them going to a 2 day weekend, but I
don't see that happening as long as the litres, or ST are around and
"somehow" I get the feeling ST isn't going anywhere. I have some
questions about the maintaining a minimum/maximum participation level
and the rider tickets, 1, 2, or 3. Supposedly a 1 (master) can ride
anywhere, does that mean one guy could ride in every race? So, like I
said I'll keep the wait and see thing going for a while..

The weather looks good in Bamaham, we be gone...

Re: And away we go!

Will Hartung <redrocks@sbcglobal . net > Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:23:59
>LiterBike, that's the Manufacturers graveyard. "Factories must field 4
>riders", "Professional Riders". I'll be curious to understand what the
>definition of "factory" is.

I'll predict now that the OEMs will just withdraw. But what that really
means is that Yoshimura-Suzuki will become Yoshimura-Susuki and be
exactly the same team and personnel but maybe move into the warehouse
next door. And they'll still find a way to buy parts from Suzuki-Japan
that are somehow not available to Jordan.

* w w w .motorcycle-usa . com /Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=6262&Page=1
BMW. German Superbike racing this year. WSB 2009. Would they want to
race in the USA?

Rolling starts. Hmmm?

So basically 3 sprint races on Sunday. Which ones will Speed show that
evening?

For those not in the UK, perhaps you'd find this weekend's Thruxton BSB
meeting schedule interesting.

Friday all day practice
Saturday all day Practice and qualifying
Sunday Morning Warmup. 08:55
KTM Super Duke 12 laps
BSB race 1 20 laps
R1 Cup 14 laps
Supersport 18 laps
BSB race 2 20 laps
Superstock 1000 15 laps
125GP 14 laps
Superstock 600 14 laps
End of day 18:30

TV on Eurosport 2. Live 13:15 -> 17:15

--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar . com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: * w w w .ecademy . com / T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: * w w w .voidstar . com / skype:julian.bond?chat
For Home Or Office Use

Re: And away we go!

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:14:31 -0400, T3 <notme@nowhere . net > wrote:

> * w w w .cyclenews . com /ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=1216
>
>"The Daytona Motorsports Group outlined its plans for the AMA Road
>Racing Championship for 2009 and beyond in a meeting held with the
>teams this afternoon at the Barber Motorsports Park in Alabama - with
>the plan based on three major classes and a fourth spec-class.
>
>The three classes will be Daytona Superbike, Literbike and Moto-ST,

"Daytona" Superbike? Gag. Talk about arrogant.


>According to the information shown to the teams, Daytona Superbikes
>will feature: 1. Homologated and available motorcycles; 2. Middleweight
>performance horsepower limits; 3. Targeted and specified
>power-to-weight ratio (combined rider and machine weights); 4. A single
>tire manufacturer; 5. A single fuel supplier; 6. Regular ECU (the black
>box) exchanges; and 7. Homologated, available, affordable aftermarket
>components only.

Double gag. This class is all about manufactured competitiveness.


>Literbike will feature the following: 1. Manufacturer homologated
>motorcycles; 2. Industry/AMA developed rules for 2009 and 2010; 3.
>Single tire supplier; 4. Single fuel supplier; 5. Specified minimum
>participation level required to maintain eligibility; 6. Maximum
>participation level specified; 7. Professional riders.

Gagging once more. Spec tires and fuel? More artificially close
racing. About the only potential positive here is the "Professional
riders" clause but only if it's used to keep the grid sizes and the
lapped backmarkers in check.


>Moto-ST will feature three classes run simultaneously with a spec tire
>and spec fuel rule, and all bikes will be twins. Riders in Moto-ST are
>required to have what DMG calls a Class 1 or 2 license for the Super
>Sport Twins class (120 horsepower/400 pounds), while a Class 3 license
>is required for the Grand Sport Twins (90 horsepower/380 pounds) and
>the Super Sport Twins class (75 horsepower/360 pounds).

Yawn.


>Other details released today include the fact that two-way radio
>systems will be mandatory

I'm really not a big fan of this idea. If the teams want to use them,
fine. As a former racer I think I'd prefer not to. That kind of
distraction can cause accidents on a motorcycle and the consequences
are potentially lethal. More to the point, I bet they'll soon mandate
that each team meets a minimum quota on the number of conversations
during the race so they can get some air time on TV.

>Not so bad now, huh?

Even worse than I feared.

On the negative side, I think we can say goodbye to Mladin and
probably Spies. On the positive side perhaps WSBK will become a
desirable move again for the AMA riders and if we're lucky we'll see
guys like EBoz and Hayes competing at the world level. Heck I'd even
like to see Hayes and Zemke duking it out in WSS.

Re: And away we go!

Dave <no1@home . com > Thu, 17 Apr 2008 23:53:22
>Gagging once more. Spec tires and fuel? More artificially close
>racing.

So who gets the spec tyre contract?

--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar . com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: * w w w .ecademy . com / T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: * w w w .voidstar . com / skype:julian.bond?chat
For Home Or Office Use

Re: And away we go!

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:37:28 GMT, Julian Bond
<julian_bond@voidstar . com > wrote:

>Dave <no1@home . com > Thu, 17 Apr 2008 23:53:22
>>Gagging once more. Spec tires and fuel? More artificially close
>>racing.
>
>So who gets the spec tyre contract?

Good question. If it's anybody but Dunlop then it's a sham almost as
bad as the WSBK Pirelli deal. After all, Dunlop probably owns 80%+ of
the grid including all the factory teams.

Unless, of course, Dunlop declines because DMG insists on dictating
some unreasonable or unmanageable level of supply and support.

Re: And away we go!

Dave wrote:

> "Daytona" Superbike? Gag. Talk about arrogant.

> Double gag. This class is all about manufactured competitiveness.

> Gagging once more. Spec tires and fuel? More artificially close
> racing. About the only potential positive here is the "Professional
> riders" clause but only if it's used to keep the grid sizes and the
> lapped backmarkers in check.

> Even worse than I feared.

Yep, I would have guessed that they would mostly be focused on heavily
tweaking the current structure with things like spec tires, pace cars,
other manufactured competitiveness tools. What I didn't expect was that
they'd throw the whole thing out, and with really no good idea what to
replace it with.

What would have made much more sense would have been to take
middleweight SB and put all their new ideas in that, and leave real SB
just as it was planned, including with competitive tires. Then run both
classes on both Saturday and Sunday, since they so few classes anyway.
That would allow for a very direct comparison and competition, and we'd
see if their concept (Nascar on bikes) creates more interest than the
current world concept (real racing on real racebikes). If their notion
fails, they haven't messed everything up too badly, but if it succeeds,
then they ease SB out of the picture over time.

Instead they blow the whole thing up. Here's one guy hoping the
factories get together with Dunlop and some of the folks who didn't have
the France big check in this competition and start building something
that actually involves real racing.

Looks like I'm gonna have a few more free weekends next year...

Re: And away we go!

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:14:31 -0400, T3 <notme@nowhere . net > wrote:

> * w w w .cyclenews . com /ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=1216

<snip>

>Not so bad now, huh?

You think? I reckon it looks shit. Compare and contrast with what
Julian posted for what we run in the UK.

--
Champ

Re: And away we go!

Champ wrote:
> T3he Daytona Buttplug astounds:

>> Not so bad now, huh?
>
> You think? I reckon it looks shit.

You reckon correctly.

Compare and contrast with what
> Julian posted for what we run in the UK.

Okay, let's look at that:

> Friday all day practice
> Saturday all day Practice and qualifying

What, no racing on Saturday? With eight classes you'd think they'd run
one or two, give the fans a real reason to show up.

> Sunday Morning Warmup. 08:55
> KTM Super Duke 12 laps

Spec class. Boo.

> BSB race 1 20 laps

On spec tires. Boo. 47-mile race? Eh, a little on the short side.

> R1 Cup 14 laps

Three races in and we're already on our second spec class. Boo. And is
this the same as the old R6 cup, a class for testosterone-charged
teenagers? Now on 175 hp machines? Boo.

> Supersport 18 laps

SB-spec motors in SS-spec chassis? Hmm...

> BSB race 2 20 laps

With three races still to run we're done with both SB races and also the
#2 class, SSport...

> Superstock 1000 15 laps

Now up to four races running 1000-4 Japanese sportbikes, in three
different classes - are the fans confused yet?

> 125GP 14 laps

At least they sound different...

> Superstock 600 14 laps

Different levels of motor mods, but how different are the chassis from
SSport? Aftermarket brake disks? Without knowing rider rules
differences, way too close. Boo.

> End of day 18:30

Unless it snows...

Don't get me wrong, it's much better than what we'll have next year, but
hardly heaven on earth. The whole thing is based on BSB ending up being
as much a club racing series as a major national championship, because
the country is small enough to do that.

Re: And away we go!

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:00:19 -0700, Mark N
<menusbaum@NYETSPAMearthlink . net > wrote:

>Champ wrote:
>> T3he Daytona Buttplug astounds:
>
>>> Not so bad now, huh?
>>
>> You think? I reckon it looks shit.
>
>You reckon correctly.
>
>Compare and contrast with what
>> Julian posted for what we run in the UK.
>
>Okay, let's look at that:

<snip>

>Now up to four races running 1000-4 Japanese sportbikes, in three
>different classes - are the fans confused yet?

<snip>

>Different levels of motor mods, but how different are the chassis from
>SSport? Aftermarket brake disks? Without knowing rider rules
>differences, way too close. Boo.

Well, you don't like spec class, and you don't like lots of classes
using the same base machines. But, what else is there? Pretty much
all racing seems to be based on 600 and 1000 sports bikes; everything
else is a novelty act (e.g. KTMs) or an attempt to maintain some
semblance of "GP purity" (GP125; we stopped racing GP250 here a couple
of years ago). So, seriously - what other classes can you run?

The division between classes is really about the experience and budget
of the riders. The Superstock 1000 guys will not be as good as the
Superbike guys. The Superstock 600 boys will not be as good (and
probably younger) than the Supersport 600 boys. That's the division.

>Don't get me wrong, it's much better than what we'll have next year, but
>hardly heaven on earth. The whole thing is based on BSB ending up being
>as much a club racing series as a major national championship, because
>the country is small enough to do that.

Hmmm. Not sure what you mean by that. Club racing here still has a
lot of niche/budget classes (e.g. steel frame 600s, 400s, even a
street legal class). At club level it's about providing lots of ways
for people to start. The national championship isn't really about
that.

--
Champ

Re: And away we go!

Champ wrote:
> Mark N wrote:

>> Okay, let's look at that:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Now up to four races running 1000-4 Japanese sportbikes, in three
>> different classes - are the fans confused yet?
>
> <snip>
>
>> Different levels of motor mods, but how different are the chassis from
>> SSport? Aftermarket brake disks? Without knowing rider rules
>> differences, way too close. Boo.
>
> Well, you don't like spec class, and you don't like lots of classes
> using the same base machines. But, what else is there? Pretty much
> all racing seems to be based on 600 and 1000 sports bikes; everything
> else is a novelty act (e.g. KTMs) or an attempt to maintain some
> semblance of "GP purity" (GP125; we stopped racing GP250 here a couple
> of years ago). So, seriously - what other classes can you run?

No, I don't like spec classes, that just doesn't fit into my conception
of professional racing. Regarding classes with competing machines,
you're exactly right, what is out there today are middleweights and
literbikes, and you pretty much have to build in different directions
off those same machines. I accept that and really don't have a problem
with it, but much of the criticism of the AMA structure in the last few
years has been about this, fan "confusion" between SB and SStock, etc.
Me, I think that's bullshit, it's just another way to blame the AMA for
all the problems with racing here and offering no real alternatives.

I do think SSport and 600SStock are really too close to each other,
though, and that's because the world concept of SSport doesn't quite
make sense to me. The chassis is very stock, with the usual allowed
changes - rear shock, fork internals (limited), brake pads and lines -
but use of stock forks, brake calipers, swingarms, wheels, "DOT" tires,
gas tanks, etc. The one oddity is replacement of brake discs, which I
suspect is a legacy issue dating back to the small disc 600s of the
mid-'90s. But then the motor mods are notably looser, allowing some
degree of real modification. For instance, radiators can be replaced,
internal gearing can be changed, all electronics can be changed. In
SStock the chassis is almost identical (again, the brake disc thing),
but the motor mods have been notably restricted. It strikes me that
something like the FX/SS distinctions would make more sense.

In any case, I think one of the very serious problems with this NASBike
shit over here is that there is a very serious hostility being shown to
the Japanese, which really guts the two basic class categories. NASCAR
has as one of its cited historical landmarks the falling out with the
factories, and one of its long-standing rules was that the only eligible
cars were those from this country; the Japanese were let in only very
recently. These concepts seem to have clouded their bike formulation,
really starting with the twins-only concept in Moto-ST, and now brought
into sharp focus with their open hostility toward the Japanese OEMs over
SB and 1000-4s. So we're left with plenty of places to race twins of
various displacement, and a feature class which will likely favor twins
in its execution. And serious limitations on fours, which just happen to
be the bikes that most people in this country ride and race. It is a
fundamental miscalculation, I think, which at best is based on trying to
relive past glory, and at worst based on racism ("rice-rockets" need not
apply). The latter wouldn't be a surprise, given the racist history of
NASCAR country and the elements to which it appeals today.

> The division between classes is really about the experience and budget
> of the riders. The Superstock 1000 guys will not be as good as the
> Superbike guys. The Superstock 600 boys will not be as good (and
> probably younger) than the Supersport 600 boys. That's the division.

So is that official, or just the way it happens to work out?

>> Don't get me wrong, it's much better than what we'll have next year, but
>> hardly heaven on earth. The whole thing is based on BSB ending up being
>> as much a club racing series as a major national championship, because
>> the country is small enough to do that.
>
> Hmmm. Not sure what you mean by that. Club racing here still has a
> lot of niche/budget classes (e.g. steel frame 600s, 400s, even a
> street legal class). At club level it's about providing lots of ways
> for people to start. The national championship isn't really about
> that.

But it strikes me that you have a number of classes intended for
relative neophytes. The AMA structure has none of that, you are expected
to be an experienced, professional racer capable of racing in the same
class as a top-level, factory-employed rider (at least in theory). In
this country guys starting out don't/can't just hit the AMA tour with
basically no racing experience. In the UK I don't know, but given the
class structure and the much more limited travel requirements, it seems
like you could, and that's part of the thought in the structure.

Re: And away we go!

On 2008-04-19 12:37:18 -0400, Mark N <menusbaum@NYETSPAMearthlink . net > said:

> No, I don't like spec classes, that just doesn't fit into my conception
> of professional racing. Regarding classes with competing machines,
> you're exactly right, what is out there today are middleweights and
> literbikes, and you pretty much have to build in different directions
> off those same machines. I accept that and really don't have a problem
> with it, but much of the criticism of the AMA structure in the last few
> years has been about this, fan "confusion" between SB and SStock, etc.
> Me, I think that's bullshit, it's just another way to blame the AMA for
> all the problems with racing here and offering no real alternatives.

Um, excuse me, but if the new class structure doesn't "offer a real
alternative", I'm not sure what would..

>
> I do think SSport and 600SStock are really too close to each other,
> though, and that's because the world concept of SSport doesn't quite
> make sense to me. The chassis is very stock, with the usual allowed
> changes - rear shock, fork internals (limited), brake pads and lines -
> but use of stock forks, brake calipers, swingarms, wheels, "DOT" tires,
> gas tanks, etc. The one oddity is replacement of brake discs, which I
> suspect is a legacy issue dating back to the small disc 600s of the
> mid-'90s. But then the motor mods are notably looser, allowing some
> degree of real modification. For instance, radiators can be replaced,
> internal gearing can be changed, all electronics can be changed. In
> SStock the chassis is almost identical (again, the brake disc thing),
> but the motor mods have been notably restricted. It strikes me that
> something like the FX/SS distinctions would make more sense.
>
> In any case, I think one of the very serious problems with this NASBike
> shit over here is that there is a very serious hostility being shown to
> the Japanese, which really guts the two basic class categories. NASCAR
> has as one of its cited historical landmarks the falling out with the
> factories, and one of its long-standing rules was that the only
> eligible cars were those from this country; the Japanese were let in
> only very recently. These concepts seem to have clouded their bike
> formulation, really starting with the twins-only concept in Moto-ST,
> and now brought into sharp focus with their open hostility toward the
> Japanese OEMs over SB and 1000-4s. So we're left with plenty of places
> to race twins of various displacement, and a feature class which will
> likely favor twins in its execution. And serious limitations on fours,
> which just happen to be the bikes that most people in this country ride
> and race. It is a fundamental miscalculation, I think, which at best is
> based on trying to relive past glory, and at worst based on racism
> ("rice-rockets" need not apply). The latter wouldn't be a surprise,
> given the racist history of NASCAR country and the elements to which it
> appeals today.

Make up your mind, just last week you were cueing up dueling banjo's
claiming they were just a bunch of rednecks, now they're racist too? I
find the fact you would have the balls to call anyone racist hilarious!
Mn, the Ann Coulter of RMR, it's amazing the depths you'll stoop in
order to validate your bullshit, truly amazing.. {Pot, kettle, black}

Re: And away we go!

Mark N wrote:

> In any case, I think one of the very serious problems with this NASBike
> shit over here is that there is a very serious hostility being shown to
> the Japanese, which really guts the two basic class categories. NASCAR
> has as one of its cited historical landmarks the falling out with the
> factories, and one of its long-standing rules was that the only eligible
> cars were those from this country; the Japanese were let in only very
> recently. These concepts seem to have clouded their bike formulation,
> really starting with the twins-only concept in Moto-ST, and now brought
> into sharp focus with their open hostility toward the Japanese OEMs over
> SB and 1000-4s.

Oh, I dunno about that.

I think there's two things in play here. One is simply the dominant
success of the factory teams. If Ducati were still here, and as
successful as they were in their heyday, they'd be given their hat and
shown the same door the Japanese OEMs are right now.

It's a money, and indirectly, unobtainium thing that DMG is trying to
drive out with the OEMs. This follows "the factories are the problem"
meme. Get rid of the factories, "fix the problem", for assorted
definitions of "problem". What they need to do is give Spies and Mladin
some secret shots of Benadryl in their Rockstar drinks to slow them down.

The format of ST seems to be the way it is so that it could be
"something different". We already have a lot of 4 cylinder racing here,
yet there are a lot of (albeit non-japanese) factories that are putting
out twins that really didn't have a venue to play in. So, that may have
been perceived as a niche that could be filled with Moto-ST. Plus they
wanted something to fill the day on the first race day of their Grand Am
weekends, like the Busch cars fill up Sprint cup weekends. They have a
road course, why not have a motorcycle event. And make it a long one so
they don't have to wrangle up racers and crap. Low overhead that way.

They're sticking with ST because they're sticking with ST. I don't know
if they're having favorable sponsorship results, or fan turnout at the
races or what. But it's a no brainer to keep this established series (as
in "established by DMG vs established by AMA"). Moto-ST simply hasn't
been around long enough to fail, if that's it's destiny. The euro
factories and dealers no doubt enjoy having a venue to display their
wares. BMW gets to show their new HP line and get folks back interested
in racing as they make the push in to WSB next year (with a straight 4
to boot) so they can expand their market and line, being as the boomer
bubble is moving through their touring and road bike line, there's not
much growth there in the future.

Also, the all twin format keeps the balancing of the classes easier, as
someone mentioned here the torque curves differ from a twin to a
straight-4, maybe to the twins advantage at the same HP and weight,
maybe not.

Basically, I don't know if I'd jump out with dark conspiracy when crass
marketing and capitalism can equally explain it.

Regards,

Will Hartung