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The season so far, part I
A break from the GP and AMA action this weekend, so a good time to size
up how the year has started. [Yeah, I know, WSB is running this weekend
- or is that hobbling along on their walkers?]
The MotoGP championship fight has already been fully established, and
it's the four guys who have won the four races so far, and taken all of
the podium places - Rossi, Pedrosa, Stoner and Lorenzo. A great start to
the season, and that's mostly due to the hard work Michelin has seemed
to have put in this winter, equaling and perhaps exceeding Bridgestone.
The other contributor is the equalizing among the new 800cc machines,
fully expected, and the adjustment to slightly juggled tire limitation
rules.
To me the biggest surprise at the front is the guy now at the very
front, Pedrosa. Given that last fall I was picking him to win the
championship, that shouldn't be the case, but that was before he hurt
his hand in testing and before Honda's pneumatic valve motor was
determined to be not ready for prime time. Yet he's been on the box in
every race and was easily the fastest Michelin man in China.
Lorenzo is the popular choice, of course, but to me he's sort of this
year's Stoner, a guy who simply dropped onto the best bike (the
factory-version of the Yamaha) and best tires (Michelins, so far) and
has reaped the benefits. Kind of amazing for a class rookie, but he
knows the tracks, the bikes are designed for 250-trained riders, the
electronics do the rest (well, almost, as he learned in Shanghai!), and
as a Spaniard with sponsor bucks-drawing power in the future, he has
political clout. And running different tires than Rossi is the final
piece of the puzzle, guaranteeing he wouldn't just be Vale's tester like
Edwards was.
Rossi appears to have made an error in his late-season math last year,
figuring the Bridgestones would be best, or at least equalizing tires
with Stoner was the problem needing a solution. That hasn't yet worked
out quite as planned, but he's been bailed out by a motorcycle that's
the best out there. That might sound funny to the loyalists who believe
that Vale won the 04-05 championships despite inferior Yamahas, and lost
the 06-07 championships because of unreliable Yamahas. Now he seems to
have adjusted to the new tires and has a win under his belt, but that
doesn't mean things are going to go as he planned the rest of the way.
Stoner's win at Michelin-favoring nighttime Losail was an auspicious
start, but it's all been downhill since then. Tires tend to get the
blame, but there's no question that the Ducatis overall look like a
shadow of their former selves, with Melandri and the D'Antin boys
sucking hind tit as well. I certainly can't tell if they took a wrong
turn in their hardware or software development or if the others have
just closed or eliminated the gap, but it's obvious that their power
edge has largely been dissipated.
Tires are at the heart of the matter, and in Qatar Stoner was 13 seconds
up on Rossi and 20 more on the 3rd Bridgestones (Capirossi). But Losail
is a Stoner track, where he made his first big splash in '06 by taking
pole, and that was a very unusual situation. At Jerez Stoner finished 40
seconds behind Rossi, but that was after two gravel runs and the loss of
just over 20 seconds; Rossi was 25 seconds up on Capirossi, so about the
same there. At Estoril Stoner was 14 seconds down on Rossi and even 3
behind Hopkins, while Capirossi was once again 25 down on Vale. Then at
Shanghai Stoner was 16 seconds back of Rossi, while Capirossi was 31
down after a minor off-track and a mecahnical problem very late, losing
- you guessed it - 6 to 7 seconds. This suggests a very real and hard
gap to Rossi that Stoner must somehow close, something like 15 seconds
over race distance, and it's not obvious how they do it.
On the Michelin side, Pedrosa beat Rossi in the first 3 races, by 2,
3 and 10 seconds, and then lost at the first Bridgestone track, by 4
seconds. What he has coming is what could/should be a notable step up in
hardware, the pneumi motor assumedly not only being of superior peak
horsepower but also better fuel consumption, and it was said to fit the
new chassis better than the old motor the Repsol boys have been running,
resulting in better machine balance. That may be enough to keep Dani in
the fight with Rossi (and ahead of Lorenzo) even if the tire situation
shifts a bit toward Rossi. And if it doesn't, if it stays in Michelin's
court? That moves the Rat up the list, but as a rookie one assumes he
will at times pay for his inexperience.
Among the also-rans, I think the most likely to make an impact remain
the guys I suspected in the off-season: Hayden, Melandri, Hopkins. Nicky
will benefit by the new motor as well, and he probably need the extra
ponies even more than Dani. At minimum, on Michelin weekends he ought to
be a serious podium threat and he could end up being a Pedrosa asset -
we won't see Nicky dragged kicking and screaming to being the good
teammate, unlike Dani in '06. Melandri at least saw a little light at
the end of the tunnel this past weekend, and I have to believe they will
at least see the occasional bright spot going forward. Hopkins' Sunday
was all dark, but it's hard to believe he and that bike won't get better
as the year progresses. At least they'll sound good, if the screamer
motor is in their near future.
What those guys are that most of the rest of the suspects aren't are
factory riders, and they get the new stuff. Edwards has been in the
right spot so far, but just hasn't gotten it done on race day, and I
don't see his situation getting much better. Dovisioso has been in the
middle of battle all year long and has gotten closer to a podium than
any of the others, but I assume his bike will remain the state of the
'07 Honda art for the rest of the year. Perhaps unless he ends up with
the '09 Repsol seat, in which case they may slide him '08 tackle before
the year is out. Toseland is now into tracks he doesn't know, and his
12th and 43 seconds back in China may become more the norm. Then there
are the Suzukis, and it's hard to say where they may be, Capirossi the
faster so far.
Next up is Le Mans, which rarely tells us anything, but then on to the
core of the European season - Mugello, Catalunya, Donington, Assen -
before the scratcher tracks at the Sachsenring and Laguna and the
summer break. We should know before they roll into NorCal how it's going
to play out, and my best guess is that it will mostly be coming down to
Rossi vs. Pedrosa by then. You know, exactly what Dorna always wanted,
why they stepped into the tire mess late last season. And although it
hadn't appeared to work out quite as planned, maybe it really has.
In any case, this championship more than ever appears to be about
motorcycles and tires, it's just that the current mix means you have to
look a little harder to see it - maybe DMG could learn a thing or two
from these guys...
up how the year has started. [Yeah, I know, WSB is running this weekend
- or is that hobbling along on their walkers?]
The MotoGP championship fight has already been fully established, and
it's the four guys who have won the four races so far, and taken all of
the podium places - Rossi, Pedrosa, Stoner and Lorenzo. A great start to
the season, and that's mostly due to the hard work Michelin has seemed
to have put in this winter, equaling and perhaps exceeding Bridgestone.
The other contributor is the equalizing among the new 800cc machines,
fully expected, and the adjustment to slightly juggled tire limitation
rules.
To me the biggest surprise at the front is the guy now at the very
front, Pedrosa. Given that last fall I was picking him to win the
championship, that shouldn't be the case, but that was before he hurt
his hand in testing and before Honda's pneumatic valve motor was
determined to be not ready for prime time. Yet he's been on the box in
every race and was easily the fastest Michelin man in China.
Lorenzo is the popular choice, of course, but to me he's sort of this
year's Stoner, a guy who simply dropped onto the best bike (the
factory-version of the Yamaha) and best tires (Michelins, so far) and
has reaped the benefits. Kind of amazing for a class rookie, but he
knows the tracks, the bikes are designed for 250-trained riders, the
electronics do the rest (well, almost, as he learned in Shanghai!), and
as a Spaniard with sponsor bucks-drawing power in the future, he has
political clout. And running different tires than Rossi is the final
piece of the puzzle, guaranteeing he wouldn't just be Vale's tester like
Edwards was.
Rossi appears to have made an error in his late-season math last year,
figuring the Bridgestones would be best, or at least equalizing tires
with Stoner was the problem needing a solution. That hasn't yet worked
out quite as planned, but he's been bailed out by a motorcycle that's
the best out there. That might sound funny to the loyalists who believe
that Vale won the 04-05 championships despite inferior Yamahas, and lost
the 06-07 championships because of unreliable Yamahas. Now he seems to
have adjusted to the new tires and has a win under his belt, but that
doesn't mean things are going to go as he planned the rest of the way.
Stoner's win at Michelin-favoring nighttime Losail was an auspicious
start, but it's all been downhill since then. Tires tend to get the
blame, but there's no question that the Ducatis overall look like a
shadow of their former selves, with Melandri and the D'Antin boys
sucking hind tit as well. I certainly can't tell if they took a wrong
turn in their hardware or software development or if the others have
just closed or eliminated the gap, but it's obvious that their power
edge has largely been dissipated.
Tires are at the heart of the matter, and in Qatar Stoner was 13 seconds
up on Rossi and 20 more on the 3rd Bridgestones (Capirossi). But Losail
is a Stoner track, where he made his first big splash in '06 by taking
pole, and that was a very unusual situation. At Jerez Stoner finished 40
seconds behind Rossi, but that was after two gravel runs and the loss of
just over 20 seconds; Rossi was 25 seconds up on Capirossi, so about the
same there. At Estoril Stoner was 14 seconds down on Rossi and even 3
behind Hopkins, while Capirossi was once again 25 down on Vale. Then at
Shanghai Stoner was 16 seconds back of Rossi, while Capirossi was 31
down after a minor off-track and a mecahnical problem very late, losing
- you guessed it - 6 to 7 seconds. This suggests a very real and hard
gap to Rossi that Stoner must somehow close, something like 15 seconds
over race distance, and it's not obvious how they do it.
On the Michelin side, Pedrosa beat Rossi in the first 3 races, by 2,
3 and 10 seconds, and then lost at the first Bridgestone track, by 4
seconds. What he has coming is what could/should be a notable step up in
hardware, the pneumi motor assumedly not only being of superior peak
horsepower but also better fuel consumption, and it was said to fit the
new chassis better than the old motor the Repsol boys have been running,
resulting in better machine balance. That may be enough to keep Dani in
the fight with Rossi (and ahead of Lorenzo) even if the tire situation
shifts a bit toward Rossi. And if it doesn't, if it stays in Michelin's
court? That moves the Rat up the list, but as a rookie one assumes he
will at times pay for his inexperience.
Among the also-rans, I think the most likely to make an impact remain
the guys I suspected in the off-season: Hayden, Melandri, Hopkins. Nicky
will benefit by the new motor as well, and he probably need the extra
ponies even more than Dani. At minimum, on Michelin weekends he ought to
be a serious podium threat and he could end up being a Pedrosa asset -
we won't see Nicky dragged kicking and screaming to being the good
teammate, unlike Dani in '06. Melandri at least saw a little light at
the end of the tunnel this past weekend, and I have to believe they will
at least see the occasional bright spot going forward. Hopkins' Sunday
was all dark, but it's hard to believe he and that bike won't get better
as the year progresses. At least they'll sound good, if the screamer
motor is in their near future.
What those guys are that most of the rest of the suspects aren't are
factory riders, and they get the new stuff. Edwards has been in the
right spot so far, but just hasn't gotten it done on race day, and I
don't see his situation getting much better. Dovisioso has been in the
middle of battle all year long and has gotten closer to a podium than
any of the others, but I assume his bike will remain the state of the
'07 Honda art for the rest of the year. Perhaps unless he ends up with
the '09 Repsol seat, in which case they may slide him '08 tackle before
the year is out. Toseland is now into tracks he doesn't know, and his
12th and 43 seconds back in China may become more the norm. Then there
are the Suzukis, and it's hard to say where they may be, Capirossi the
faster so far.
Next up is Le Mans, which rarely tells us anything, but then on to the
core of the European season - Mugello, Catalunya, Donington, Assen -
before the scratcher tracks at the Sachsenring and Laguna and the
summer break. We should know before they roll into NorCal how it's going
to play out, and my best guess is that it will mostly be coming down to
Rossi vs. Pedrosa by then. You know, exactly what Dorna always wanted,
why they stepped into the tire mess late last season. And although it
hadn't appeared to work out quite as planned, maybe it really has.
In any case, this championship more than ever appears to be about
motorcycles and tires, it's just that the current mix means you have to
look a little harder to see it - maybe DMG could learn a thing or two
from these guys...
"Mark N" <menusbaum@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:AfmdnXaPt963I7zVnZ2dnUVZ_qSonZ2d@giganews.com...
>A break from the GP and AMA action this weekend, so a good time to size
> up how the year has started. [Yeah, I know, WSB is running this weekend
> - or is that hobbling along on their walkers?]
>
> The MotoGP championship fight has already been fully established, and
> it's the four guys who have won the four races so far, and taken all of
> the podium places - Rossi, Pedrosa, Stoner and Lorenzo. A great start to
> the season, and that's mostly due to the hard work Michelin has seemed
> to have put in this winter, equaling and perhaps exceeding Bridgestone.
> The other contributor is the equalizing among the new 800cc machines,
> fully expected, and the adjustment to slightly juggled tire limitation
> rules.
>
> To me the biggest surprise at the front is the guy now at the very
> front, Pedrosa. Given that last fall I was picking him to win the
> championship, that shouldn't be the case, but that was before he hurt
> his hand in testing and before Honda's pneumatic valve motor was
> determined to be not ready for prime time. Yet he's been on the box in
> every race and was easily the fastest Michelin man in China.
>
> Lorenzo is the popular choice, of course, but to me he's sort of this
> year's Stoner, a guy who simply dropped onto the best bike (the
> factory-version of the Yamaha) and best tires (Michelins, so far) and
> has reaped the benefits. Kind of amazing for a class rookie, but he
> knows the tracks, the bikes are designed for 250-trained riders, the
> electronics do the rest (well, almost, as he learned in Shanghai!), and
> as a Spaniard with sponsor bucks-drawing power in the future, he has
> political clout. And running different tires than Rossi is the final
> piece of the puzzle, guaranteeing he wouldn't just be Vale's tester like
> Edwards was.
>
> Rossi appears to have made an error in his late-season math last year,
> figuring the Bridgestones would be best, or at least equalizing tires
> with Stoner was the problem needing a solution. That hasn't yet worked
> out quite as planned, but he's been bailed out by a motorcycle that's
> the best out there. That might sound funny to the loyalists who believe
> that Vale won the 04-05 championships despite inferior Yamahas, and lost
> the 06-07 championships because of unreliable Yamahas. Now he seems to
> have adjusted to the new tires and has a win under his belt, but that
> doesn't mean things are going to go as he planned the rest of the way.
What does Rossi's ability to adjust to the new tires say about Edwards'
value to him in past years as a tire tester?
>
> Stoner's win at Michelin-favoring nighttime Losail was an auspicious
> start, but it's all been downhill since then. Tires tend to get the
> blame, but there's no question that the Ducatis overall look like a
> shadow of their former selves, with Melandri and the D'Antin boys
> sucking hind tit as well. I certainly can't tell if they took a wrong
> turn in their hardware or software development or if the others have
> just closed or eliminated the gap, but it's obvious that their power
> edge has largely been dissipated.
>
> Tires are at the heart of the matter, and in Qatar Stoner was 13 seconds
> up on Rossi and 20 more on the 3rd Bridgestones (Capirossi). But Losail
> is a Stoner track, where he made his first big splash in '06 by taking
> pole, and that was a very unusual situation. At Jerez Stoner finished 40
> seconds behind Rossi, but that was after two gravel runs and the loss of
> just over 20 seconds; Rossi was 25 seconds up on Capirossi, so about the
> same there. At Estoril Stoner was 14 seconds down on Rossi and even 3
> behind Hopkins, while Capirossi was once again 25 down on Vale. Then at
> Shanghai Stoner was 16 seconds back of Rossi, while Capirossi was 31
> down after a minor off-track and a mecahnical problem very late, losing
> - you guessed it - 6 to 7 seconds. This suggests a very real and hard
> gap to Rossi that Stoner must somehow close, something like 15 seconds
> over race distance, and it's not obvious how they do it.
>
> On the Michelin side, Pedrosa beat Rossi in the first 3 races, by 2,
> 3 and 10 seconds, and then lost at the first Bridgestone track, by 4
> seconds. What he has coming is what could/should be a notable step up in
> hardware, the pneumi motor assumedly not only being of superior peak
> horsepower but also better fuel consumption, and it was said to fit the
> new chassis better than the old motor the Repsol boys have been running,
> resulting in better machine balance. That may be enough to keep Dani in
> the fight with Rossi (and ahead of Lorenzo) even if the tire situation
> shifts a bit toward Rossi. And if it doesn't, if it stays in Michelin's
> court? That moves the Rat up the list, but as a rookie one assumes he
> will at times pay for his inexperience.
>
> Among the also-rans, I think the most likely to make an impact remain
> the guys I suspected in the off-season: Hayden, Melandri, Hopkins. Nicky
> will benefit by the new motor as well, and he probably need the extra
> ponies even more than Dani. At minimum, on Michelin weekends he ought to
> be a serious podium threat and he could end up being a Pedrosa asset -
> we won't see Nicky dragged kicking and screaming to being the good
> teammate, unlike Dani in '06. Melandri at least saw a little light at
> the end of the tunnel this past weekend, and I have to believe they will
> at least see the occasional bright spot going forward. Hopkins' Sunday
> was all dark, but it's hard to believe he and that bike won't get better
> as the year progresses. At least they'll sound good, if the screamer
> motor is in their near future.
>
> What those guys are that most of the rest of the suspects aren't are
> factory riders, and they get the new stuff. Edwards has been in the
> right spot so far, but just hasn't gotten it done on race day, and I
> don't see his situation getting much better.
Has anyone been able to determine why he has a practice/race disparity?
Carl Sundquist wrote:
>
> What does Rossi's ability to adjust to the new tires say about Edwards'
> value to him in past years as a tire tester?
Uh, nothing? It's really hard to say what sort of adjustment Rossi has
had to make - his race margins relative to Bridgestone veterans
Capirossi and Stoner so far this year suggest he hasn't made that much
advancement during the year. And he runs a tire that is stiffer in
construction than most do (Stoner being an exception), including
Edwards, which made their comparisons tougher, I would think.
Another question to be asked is, what does it say about Rossi as a tire
developer that after he left Michelin has made such a large jump,
reversing the trend of the last several years and making a tire that
seems to work well for all its riders and their machines?
>> What those guys are that most of the rest of the suspects aren't are
>> factory riders, and they get the new stuff. Edwards has been in the
>> right spot so far, but just hasn't gotten it done on race day, and I
>> don't see his situation getting much better.
> Has anyone been able to determine why he has a practice/race disparity?
Hard to say, I don't think I've seen anyone really address it other than
the usual comments in this group. Part of it is likely that he tries to
make small changes before the race that might close the remaining gap to
the fastest guys and they tend to backfire. I think a number of guys
have done that, stretching for that extra bit of speed, and that's part
of why the margins in the races tend to be wide than in practice.
Edwards seems to be a guy who can't really "override" the bike, he gets
to a particular speed and that's as fast as he gets with the bike as it
is, and that trait seems to be part of what has made him a valuable
tester. This year he seems to have tried a couple times to push past
that and with problematic results. So he really needs to have a bike at
minimum close to as good as the other top guys to win, he's not likely
to outride a top rider at that level on a lesser bike.
I also think there's something to the notion that Yamaha "allowed" him
to practice/test faster than he raced. I found it interesting that the
two times when Yamaha really needed him to beat Hayden in 2006, at Assen
and at Estoril, he was able to run at a race-leading pace, but otherwise
mostly not. And at Estoril Yamah openly stated that he'd get the
lastest-spec motor to race, which was obviously an upgrade.
>
> What does Rossi's ability to adjust to the new tires say about Edwards'
> value to him in past years as a tire tester?
Uh, nothing? It's really hard to say what sort of adjustment Rossi has
had to make - his race margins relative to Bridgestone veterans
Capirossi and Stoner so far this year suggest he hasn't made that much
advancement during the year. And he runs a tire that is stiffer in
construction than most do (Stoner being an exception), including
Edwards, which made their comparisons tougher, I would think.
Another question to be asked is, what does it say about Rossi as a tire
developer that after he left Michelin has made such a large jump,
reversing the trend of the last several years and making a tire that
seems to work well for all its riders and their machines?
>> What those guys are that most of the rest of the suspects aren't are
>> factory riders, and they get the new stuff. Edwards has been in the
>> right spot so far, but just hasn't gotten it done on race day, and I
>> don't see his situation getting much better.
> Has anyone been able to determine why he has a practice/race disparity?
Hard to say, I don't think I've seen anyone really address it other than
the usual comments in this group. Part of it is likely that he tries to
make small changes before the race that might close the remaining gap to
the fastest guys and they tend to backfire. I think a number of guys
have done that, stretching for that extra bit of speed, and that's part
of why the margins in the races tend to be wide than in practice.
Edwards seems to be a guy who can't really "override" the bike, he gets
to a particular speed and that's as fast as he gets with the bike as it
is, and that trait seems to be part of what has made him a valuable
tester. This year he seems to have tried a couple times to push past
that and with problematic results. So he really needs to have a bike at
minimum close to as good as the other top guys to win, he's not likely
to outride a top rider at that level on a lesser bike.
I also think there's something to the notion that Yamaha "allowed" him
to practice/test faster than he raced. I found it interesting that the
two times when Yamaha really needed him to beat Hayden in 2006, at Assen
and at Estoril, he was able to run at a race-leading pace, but otherwise
mostly not. And at Estoril Yamah openly stated that he'd get the
lastest-spec motor to race, which was obviously an upgrade.
"Mark N" <menusbaum@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:P9adnY044aywDb_VnZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@giganews.com...
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>>
>> What does Rossi's ability to adjust to the new tires say about Edwards'
>> value to him in past years as a tire tester?
>
> Uh, nothing? It's really hard to say what sort of adjustment Rossi has had
> to make - his race margins relative to Bridgestone veterans Capirossi and
> Stoner so far this year suggest he hasn't made that much advancement
> during the year. And he runs a tire that is stiffer in construction than
> most do (Stoner being an exception), including Edwards, which made their
> comparisons tougher, I would think.
If Rossi runs a stiffer tire than Edwards, making comparisons tougher, that
takes away from Rossi's specific benefit of Edwards testing, don't you
think? The situation was probably more that all the Michelin riders
benefitted from Edwards' feedback to Michelin moreso than Rossi particularly
benefitted.
On another angle, you don't hear about a pronounced difference in riding
styles between Michelin and Bridgestone as you did for Michelin and Dunlop,
so the crossover shouldn't have been exceedingly dramatic. That said,
BS/Yamaha/Rossi had a much smaller baseline of data to begin the season
with. Not even a teammate (as if one could realistically refer to Lorenzo as
Rossi's teammate).
> Another question to be asked is, what does it say about Rossi as a tire
> developer that after he left Michelin has made such a large jump,
> reversing the trend of the last several years and making a tire that seems
> to work well for all its riders and their machines?
Not a simple question to answer, especially as outsiders. You could say that
if there was enough troubles from Michelin over the course of several
seasons to support a trend, then you have to lack confidence in Michelin to
know when to expect a turnaround from them. On the other hand, given the
seemingly forced agreement between Bridgestone and Rossi, I've wondered how
motivated Bridgestone would be to work with him. Would BS simply shrug their
shoulders and get on with business or be inclined to give a little more help
to more established, amicable relationships?
Carl Sundquist wrote:
>
> "Mark N" wrote
>> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>>>
>>> What does Rossi's ability to adjust to the new tires say about
>>> Edwards' value to him in past years as a tire tester?
>>
>> Uh, nothing? It's really hard to say what sort of adjustment Rossi has
>> had to make - his race margins relative to Bridgestone veterans
>> Capirossi and Stoner so far this year suggest he hasn't made that much
>> advancement during the year. And he runs a tire that is stiffer in
>> construction than most do (Stoner being an exception), including
>> Edwards, which made their comparisons tougher, I would think.
>
> If Rossi runs a stiffer tire than Edwards, making comparisons tougher,
> that takes away from Rossi's specific benefit of Edwards testing, don't
> you think?
Yes, but that doesn't mean that Edwards input on compound and profile
couldn't have been of value. It's very hard to know.
The situation was probably more that all the Michelin riders
> benefitted from Edwards' feedback to Michelin moreso than Rossi
> particularly benefitted.
Yes, I would think his input would have been helpful to Michelin in a
more general way. That said, Edwards said the tires were likely to get
better for everyone this year exactly because Rossi was gone, the idea
being that Michelin not concentrating on his particular requirements
would benefit most everyone left, because they all like a more pliable
construction.
> On another angle, you don't hear about a pronounced difference in riding
> styles between Michelin and Bridgestone as you did for Michelin and
> Dunlop, so the crossover shouldn't have been exceedingly dramatic. That
> said, BS/Yamaha/Rossi had a much smaller baseline of data to begin the
> season with. Not even a teammate (as if one could realistically refer to
> Lorenzo as Rossi's teammate).
The Michelin-Dunlop issue was in large part the transition from grip to
no grip and the way that Michelins used to let go without warning. I
think the differences between Michelins today and Bridgestones are the
degree of side grip vs. drive grip and perhaps general feel, things you
have to get used to, and change setup and perhaps change riding style
slightly. And then there is the issue of just knowing the tires, so you
can make the best allocation choices before the weekend.
>> Another question to be asked is, what does it say about Rossi as a
>> tire developer that after he left Michelin has made such a large jump,
>> reversing the trend of the last several years and making a tire that
>> seems to work well for all its riders and their machines?
>
> Not a simple question to answer, especially as outsiders. You could say
> that if there was enough troubles from Michelin over the course of
> several seasons to support a trend, then you have to lack confidence in
> Michelin to know when to expect a turnaround from them. On the other
> hand, given the seemingly forced agreement between Bridgestone and
> Rossi, I've wondered how motivated Bridgestone would be to work with
> him. Would BS simply shrug their shoulders and get on with business or
> be inclined to give a little more help to more established, amicable
> relationships?
My guess is the best way to get Bridgestone working with him more than
the others would be to get the championship down to him and Pedrosa or
perhaps Lorenzo. They aren't likely to side with him in quite the manner
that, say, Michelin might have when it was between him and Biaggi or
Gibernau or Hayden. I think Michelin had a stake in him winning, wanting
to be associated with him, and my guess is Bridgestone doesn't feel
quite the same way.
>
> "Mark N" wrote
>> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>>>
>>> What does Rossi's ability to adjust to the new tires say about
>>> Edwards' value to him in past years as a tire tester?
>>
>> Uh, nothing? It's really hard to say what sort of adjustment Rossi has
>> had to make - his race margins relative to Bridgestone veterans
>> Capirossi and Stoner so far this year suggest he hasn't made that much
>> advancement during the year. And he runs a tire that is stiffer in
>> construction than most do (Stoner being an exception), including
>> Edwards, which made their comparisons tougher, I would think.
>
> If Rossi runs a stiffer tire than Edwards, making comparisons tougher,
> that takes away from Rossi's specific benefit of Edwards testing, don't
> you think?
Yes, but that doesn't mean that Edwards input on compound and profile
couldn't have been of value. It's very hard to know.
The situation was probably more that all the Michelin riders
> benefitted from Edwards' feedback to Michelin moreso than Rossi
> particularly benefitted.
Yes, I would think his input would have been helpful to Michelin in a
more general way. That said, Edwards said the tires were likely to get
better for everyone this year exactly because Rossi was gone, the idea
being that Michelin not concentrating on his particular requirements
would benefit most everyone left, because they all like a more pliable
construction.
> On another angle, you don't hear about a pronounced difference in riding
> styles between Michelin and Bridgestone as you did for Michelin and
> Dunlop, so the crossover shouldn't have been exceedingly dramatic. That
> said, BS/Yamaha/Rossi had a much smaller baseline of data to begin the
> season with. Not even a teammate (as if one could realistically refer to
> Lorenzo as Rossi's teammate).
The Michelin-Dunlop issue was in large part the transition from grip to
no grip and the way that Michelins used to let go without warning. I
think the differences between Michelins today and Bridgestones are the
degree of side grip vs. drive grip and perhaps general feel, things you
have to get used to, and change setup and perhaps change riding style
slightly. And then there is the issue of just knowing the tires, so you
can make the best allocation choices before the weekend.
>> Another question to be asked is, what does it say about Rossi as a
>> tire developer that after he left Michelin has made such a large jump,
>> reversing the trend of the last several years and making a tire that
>> seems to work well for all its riders and their machines?
>
> Not a simple question to answer, especially as outsiders. You could say
> that if there was enough troubles from Michelin over the course of
> several seasons to support a trend, then you have to lack confidence in
> Michelin to know when to expect a turnaround from them. On the other
> hand, given the seemingly forced agreement between Bridgestone and
> Rossi, I've wondered how motivated Bridgestone would be to work with
> him. Would BS simply shrug their shoulders and get on with business or
> be inclined to give a little more help to more established, amicable
> relationships?
My guess is the best way to get Bridgestone working with him more than
the others would be to get the championship down to him and Pedrosa or
perhaps Lorenzo. They aren't likely to side with him in quite the manner
that, say, Michelin might have when it was between him and Biaggi or
Gibernau or Hayden. I think Michelin had a stake in him winning, wanting
to be associated with him, and my guess is Bridgestone doesn't feel
quite the same way.
Carl Sundquist <carlsun@cox.net> Thu, 8 May 2008 01:21:35
>Not a simple question to answer, especially as outsiders. You could say
>that if there was enough troubles from Michelin over the course of
>several seasons to support a trend, then you have to lack confidence in
>Michelin to know when to expect a turnaround from them. On the other
>hand, given the seemingly forced agreement between Bridgestone and
>Rossi, I've wondered how motivated Bridgestone would be to work with
>him. Would BS simply shrug their shoulders and get on with business or
>be inclined to give a little more help to more established, amicable
>relationships?
Just maybe, what Rossi was saying about Michelin dropping the ball was
right and him leaving was all the incentive they needed to pick it up
again. And I bet Bridgestone are paying plenty of attention to Rossi.
There have been very senior people from Bridgestone hanging around in
his pit. And I'm not above believing that Rossi may well skew
Bridgestone development in his favour and away from the other
Bridgestone runners. Just keep an eye out for Stoner having tyre
problems and Rossi not.
--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat
Contains Flammable Gas Under Pressure
>Not a simple question to answer, especially as outsiders. You could say
>that if there was enough troubles from Michelin over the course of
>several seasons to support a trend, then you have to lack confidence in
>Michelin to know when to expect a turnaround from them. On the other
>hand, given the seemingly forced agreement between Bridgestone and
>Rossi, I've wondered how motivated Bridgestone would be to work with
>him. Would BS simply shrug their shoulders and get on with business or
>be inclined to give a little more help to more established, amicable
>relationships?
Just maybe, what Rossi was saying about Michelin dropping the ball was
right and him leaving was all the incentive they needed to pick it up
again. And I bet Bridgestone are paying plenty of attention to Rossi.
There have been very senior people from Bridgestone hanging around in
his pit. And I'm not above believing that Rossi may well skew
Bridgestone development in his favour and away from the other
Bridgestone runners. Just keep an eye out for Stoner having tyre
problems and Rossi not.
--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat
Contains Flammable Gas Under Pressure
On Mon, 12 May 2008 12:31:39 +0100, Julian Bond
<julian_bond@voidstar.com> wrote:
>Carl Sundquist <carlsun@cox.net> Thu, 8 May 2008 01:21:35
>>Not a simple question to answer, especially as outsiders. You could say
>>that if there was enough troubles from Michelin over the course of
>>several seasons to support a trend, then you have to lack confidence in
>>Michelin to know when to expect a turnaround from them. On the other
>>hand, given the seemingly forced agreement between Bridgestone and
>>Rossi, I've wondered how motivated Bridgestone would be to work with
>>him. Would BS simply shrug their shoulders and get on with business or
>>be inclined to give a little more help to more established, amicable
>>relationships?
>
>Just maybe, what Rossi was saying about Michelin dropping the ball was
>right and him leaving was all the incentive they needed to pick it up
>again. And I bet Bridgestone are paying plenty of attention to Rossi.
>There have been very senior people from Bridgestone hanging around in
>his pit. And I'm not above believing that Rossi may well skew
>Bridgestone development in his favour and away from the other
>Bridgestone runners. Just keep an eye out for Stoner having tyre
>problems and Rossi not.
There was an excellent technical article in MCN (amazingly)last week
about how Rossi and Burgess had adapted the Yamaha to work on the
Bridgestones, by 'turning it into a Ducati'. It's all about the
weight distribution - the rear wheel spindle on Rossi's bike is at the
front of its range, like Stoner's bike and in contrast to the other
Yamahas. The assumption is that the rear Bridgestone needs weight on
it to work, and Stoner rides the front with less weigth on it and
Rossi has had to move to the same thing.
In addition, Rossi and Stoner are the only Bridgestone runners using a
particular construction of rear - no one else can get on with it.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
<julian_bond@voidstar.com> wrote:
>Carl Sundquist <carlsun@cox.net> Thu, 8 May 2008 01:21:35
>>Not a simple question to answer, especially as outsiders. You could say
>>that if there was enough troubles from Michelin over the course of
>>several seasons to support a trend, then you have to lack confidence in
>>Michelin to know when to expect a turnaround from them. On the other
>>hand, given the seemingly forced agreement between Bridgestone and
>>Rossi, I've wondered how motivated Bridgestone would be to work with
>>him. Would BS simply shrug their shoulders and get on with business or
>>be inclined to give a little more help to more established, amicable
>>relationships?
>
>Just maybe, what Rossi was saying about Michelin dropping the ball was
>right and him leaving was all the incentive they needed to pick it up
>again. And I bet Bridgestone are paying plenty of attention to Rossi.
>There have been very senior people from Bridgestone hanging around in
>his pit. And I'm not above believing that Rossi may well skew
>Bridgestone development in his favour and away from the other
>Bridgestone runners. Just keep an eye out for Stoner having tyre
>problems and Rossi not.
There was an excellent technical article in MCN (amazingly)last week
about how Rossi and Burgess had adapted the Yamaha to work on the
Bridgestones, by 'turning it into a Ducati'. It's all about the
weight distribution - the rear wheel spindle on Rossi's bike is at the
front of its range, like Stoner's bike and in contrast to the other
Yamahas. The assumption is that the rear Bridgestone needs weight on
it to work, and Stoner rides the front with less weigth on it and
Rossi has had to move to the same thing.
In addition, Rossi and Stoner are the only Bridgestone runners using a
particular construction of rear - no one else can get on with it.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
Champ wrote:
> Julian Bond wrote:
>> Just maybe, what Rossi was saying about Michelin dropping the ball was
>> right and him leaving was all the incentive they needed to pick it up
>> again.
In the current RRW there's a comment by Edwards: "Valentino used tires
that only he could make work. I could never make them work. It was kind
of a bummer because Michelin had Valentino on one side and everyone else
on the other side, so they were doing two rafts of development, while
always trying to get everyone to go his way. It was really hard, I could
never get the bike to work with his tires. The best thing for Michelin,
even though they didn't recognize it, is they've now just got one tree
to grow, one way of development."
>> And I bet Bridgestone are paying plenty of attention to Rossi.
>> There have been very senior people from Bridgestone hanging around in
>> his pit. And I'm not above believing that Rossi may well skew
>> Bridgestone development in his favour and away from the other
>> Bridgestone runners. Just keep an eye out for Stoner having tyre
>> problems and Rossi not.
> In addition, Rossi and Stoner are the only Bridgestone runners using a
> particular construction of rear - no one else can get on with it.
Well, Stoner has the reputation of preferring a more rigid construction,
just like Rossi. Maybe that was part of Rossi's math, who knows, but it
doesn't bode well for guys like Hopkins and Vermeulen, assuming their
preference is the softer construction that seems to be more the norm.
One can only hope that Bridgestone evidences more "social
responsibility" than Michelin ever has, focusing more on maintaining a
level playing field.
> Julian Bond wrote:
>> Just maybe, what Rossi was saying about Michelin dropping the ball was
>> right and him leaving was all the incentive they needed to pick it up
>> again.
In the current RRW there's a comment by Edwards: "Valentino used tires
that only he could make work. I could never make them work. It was kind
of a bummer because Michelin had Valentino on one side and everyone else
on the other side, so they were doing two rafts of development, while
always trying to get everyone to go his way. It was really hard, I could
never get the bike to work with his tires. The best thing for Michelin,
even though they didn't recognize it, is they've now just got one tree
to grow, one way of development."
>> And I bet Bridgestone are paying plenty of attention to Rossi.
>> There have been very senior people from Bridgestone hanging around in
>> his pit. And I'm not above believing that Rossi may well skew
>> Bridgestone development in his favour and away from the other
>> Bridgestone runners. Just keep an eye out for Stoner having tyre
>> problems and Rossi not.
> In addition, Rossi and Stoner are the only Bridgestone runners using a
> particular construction of rear - no one else can get on with it.
Well, Stoner has the reputation of preferring a more rigid construction,
just like Rossi. Maybe that was part of Rossi's math, who knows, but it
doesn't bode well for guys like Hopkins and Vermeulen, assuming their
preference is the softer construction that seems to be more the norm.
One can only hope that Bridgestone evidences more "social
responsibility" than Michelin ever has, focusing more on maintaining a
level playing field.
On Mon, 12 May 2008 08:25:32 -0700, Mark N
<menusbaum@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote:
>> In addition, Rossi and Stoner are the only Bridgestone runners using a
>> particular construction of rear - no one else can get on with it.
>
>Well, Stoner has the reputation of preferring a more rigid construction,
>just like Rossi. Maybe that was part of Rossi's math, who knows, but it
>doesn't bode well for guys like Hopkins and Vermeulen, assuming their
>preference is the softer construction that seems to be more the norm.
>One can only hope that Bridgestone evidences more "social
>responsibility" than Michelin ever has, focusing more on maintaining a
>level playing field.
I see your point, but I suspect both tyres manufacturers are only
interested in winning, and the rest can go hang. If the guy on the
stiff tyre is winning, and the guy on the softer tyre isn't, then the
slower guy needs to learn to ride the stiff tyre or make way for
someone who can.
There's little room for sentiment here.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
<menusbaum@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote:
>> In addition, Rossi and Stoner are the only Bridgestone runners using a
>> particular construction of rear - no one else can get on with it.
>
>Well, Stoner has the reputation of preferring a more rigid construction,
>just like Rossi. Maybe that was part of Rossi's math, who knows, but it
>doesn't bode well for guys like Hopkins and Vermeulen, assuming their
>preference is the softer construction that seems to be more the norm.
>One can only hope that Bridgestone evidences more "social
>responsibility" than Michelin ever has, focusing more on maintaining a
>level playing field.
I see your point, but I suspect both tyres manufacturers are only
interested in winning, and the rest can go hang. If the guy on the
stiff tyre is winning, and the guy on the softer tyre isn't, then the
slower guy needs to learn to ride the stiff tyre or make way for
someone who can.
There's little room for sentiment here.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
Champ wrote:
> Mark N wrote:
> >Well, Stoner has the reputation of preferring a more rigid construction,
> >just like Rossi. Maybe that was part of Rossi's math, who knows, but it
> >doesn't bode well for guys like Hopkins and Vermeulen, assuming their
> >preference is the softer construction that seems to be more the norm.
> >One can only hope that Bridgestone evidences more "social
> >responsibility" than Michelin ever has, focusing more on maintaining a
> >level playing field.
>
> I see your point, but I suspect both tyres manufacturers are only
> interested in winning, and the rest can go hang. If the guy on the
> stiff tyre is winning, and the guy on the softer tyre isn't, then the
> slower guy needs to learn to ride the stiff tyre or make way for
> someone who can.
>
> There's little room for sentiment here.
There's a lot more to it than that, I think. For Michelin, they were
almost a monopoly in GP for years, and they could play whatever
favorites they wanted, whoever they thought would benefit them the
most. Obviously, they thought being associated with Rossi and him
winning all the time was to their benefit, and they responded in kind.
That might well have been a big part of Rossi winning in 03-05 (which
was a matter of discussion around here) and part of what got them in
trouble last year - too many eggs in one basket. They certainly played
favorites in WSB, only giving their good stuff to HRC and Corse, which
was a big part of what drove that series to spec tires.
For Bridgestone, they have gotten to where they are today by working
with Suzuki and Kawasaki, even though those two factories haven't
shown that much potential to be winners. Would they just dump them
now, too bad, guys, but it's all about winning? And what about
Melandri? My impression of Bridgestone is that they're a lot more like
Dunlop than Michelin, a manufacturer who isn't so much about playing
king-maker as using racing to develop and promote their products in a
more general way. If they were so concerned with just winning, why
wouldn't they have jumped at the chance to get Rossi and Pedrosa last
year? Seems to me like they needed some arm-twisting by Dorna to
agree, although it's hard to know for sure what went on behind closed
doors there.
As for Rossi, I think he publicly played the "Michelin failure" angle
to justify his move, but was really just wanting the best tires to
improve his chances. That Stoner runs something similar in terms of
construction may have convinced him that Bridgestone had and would
continue to have something that would work for him.
> Mark N wrote:
> >Well, Stoner has the reputation of preferring a more rigid construction,
> >just like Rossi. Maybe that was part of Rossi's math, who knows, but it
> >doesn't bode well for guys like Hopkins and Vermeulen, assuming their
> >preference is the softer construction that seems to be more the norm.
> >One can only hope that Bridgestone evidences more "social
> >responsibility" than Michelin ever has, focusing more on maintaining a
> >level playing field.
>
> I see your point, but I suspect both tyres manufacturers are only
> interested in winning, and the rest can go hang. If the guy on the
> stiff tyre is winning, and the guy on the softer tyre isn't, then the
> slower guy needs to learn to ride the stiff tyre or make way for
> someone who can.
>
> There's little room for sentiment here.
There's a lot more to it than that, I think. For Michelin, they were
almost a monopoly in GP for years, and they could play whatever
favorites they wanted, whoever they thought would benefit them the
most. Obviously, they thought being associated with Rossi and him
winning all the time was to their benefit, and they responded in kind.
That might well have been a big part of Rossi winning in 03-05 (which
was a matter of discussion around here) and part of what got them in
trouble last year - too many eggs in one basket. They certainly played
favorites in WSB, only giving their good stuff to HRC and Corse, which
was a big part of what drove that series to spec tires.
For Bridgestone, they have gotten to where they are today by working
with Suzuki and Kawasaki, even though those two factories haven't
shown that much potential to be winners. Would they just dump them
now, too bad, guys, but it's all about winning? And what about
Melandri? My impression of Bridgestone is that they're a lot more like
Dunlop than Michelin, a manufacturer who isn't so much about playing
king-maker as using racing to develop and promote their products in a
more general way. If they were so concerned with just winning, why
wouldn't they have jumped at the chance to get Rossi and Pedrosa last
year? Seems to me like they needed some arm-twisting by Dorna to
agree, although it's hard to know for sure what went on behind closed
doors there.
As for Rossi, I think he publicly played the "Michelin failure" angle
to justify his move, but was really just wanting the best tires to
improve his chances. That Stoner runs something similar in terms of
construction may have convinced him that Bridgestone had and would
continue to have something that would work for him.
On 2008-05-07 15:52:12 +0100, Mark N <menusbaum@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> said:
> A break from the GP and AMA action this weekend, so a good time to size
> up how the year has started. [Yeah, I know, WSB is running this weekend
> - or is that hobbling along on their walkers?]
I say again ... *yawn*
> A break from the GP and AMA action this weekend, so a good time to size
> up how the year has started. [Yeah, I know, WSB is running this weekend
> - or is that hobbling along on their walkers?]
I say again ... *yawn*
