Group: rec.motorcycles.racing
Discussion of all aspects of racing motorcycles.
Add group to favorites
Back to post list
Send new message to group Search:
Post Subject:
Brits racing in the US, and their view on US racing post 2008
Brits racing in the US, and their view on US racing post 2008
A couple of comments were printed in MCN last week from Neil Hodgson
and Chas Davies with regard to all the changes being discussed wrt
racing in the USA from next year. Both of them think that they
personally won't be very interested in racing 130bhp 600s, and also
that few other non-US riders are likely to look on racing in the US as
a 'destination series' (i.e. more than a stepping stone) if these
changes come to pass.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
A couple of comments were printed in MCN last week from Neil Hodgson
and Chas Davies with regard to all the changes being discussed wrt
racing in the USA from next year. Both of them think that they
personally won't be very interested in racing 130bhp 600s, and also
that few other non-US riders are likely to look on racing in the US as
a 'destination series' (i.e. more than a stepping stone) if these
changes come to pass.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
Re: Brits racing in the US, and their view on US racing post 2008
Champ wrote:
> A couple of comments were printed in MCN last week from Neil Hodgson
> and Chas Davies with regard to all the changes being discussed wrt
> racing in the USA from next year. Both of them think that they
> personally won't be very interested in racing 130bhp 600s, and also
> that few other non-US riders are likely to look on racing in the US as
> a 'destination series' (i.e. more than a stepping stone) if these
> changes come to pass.
Yeah, their comments were in the CN issue here on the Fontana races.
Among comments by Neil: "My personal thoughts on the rules changes is,
it's just alienating America from the rest of the world, which is a big
mistake, a big mistake. ...and the rest of the world would think that
the American racing's crap. And that's the truth." And he says it won't
change who wins and who loses. Davies sounds pretty skeptical about the
rules and how they'll police the whole thing. And then there's Edwards'
comments about coming back here next season, which he has been rumored
to be considering for a while. Now he's saying it will take a boatload
of money, if he's going to race restricted 600s it will be for the money.
At the end of the day that's mostly why guys come here from elsewhere to
race, to land a factory job, to get paid. But if NASBike manages what
they seem determined to do - wrestle meaningful influence from the
factories and make it possible for non-factory teams to win races - then
the benefit simply won't be there for the factories and they'll likely
stop paying those six- and seven-figure salaries. I can't imagine all
this non-industry sponsorship that's going to start flowing in any day
now will be nearly enough to create that level of rider income - if top
teams like Ten Kate and Alstare in quasi-non-factory WSB can't pay more
than $150k, how are private teams like Erion and Graves here going to
manage that and more, once the factory support checks stop flowing?
And here from Josh Hayes in a newspaper column linked by Soup today:
But racing is not all that is on Hayes' plate these days. The AMA's
racing arm has been bought out by the Daytona Motorsports Group, headed
by NASCAR's first family, the Frances. With a decreased emphasis on the
manufacturer's adage of "win on Sunday, sell on Monday," and an
increased focus on creating a great racing show similar to NASCAR, Hayes
believes the sport is facing some seriously rough waters.
"It's absolutely crazy," Hayes said. "Next year, racing in the U.S. is
going to be completely different. They want it to be a better show, like
NASCAR, where 10 guys at any race can win. They're hoping that gets some
of the NASCAR crowd to watch. But motorcycle racing draws a different
crowd, techie geeks who argue about it on message boards. They're hardcore."
The biggest problem Hayes has with the changes looming on the horizon is
the manufacturers will be shut out of the equation. DMG will be going to
specification ECUs (engine control units), tires and fuel, each provided
by a single supplier. Whereas now where the rules allow some diversity
in these areas amongst manufacturers, this will fall by the wayside as
AMA drops to two classes, one for 1,000 cc bikes and one for 600 cc
bikes. Both will differ little from their street-going kin. Since he is
a salary racer paid by Honda with endorsements from apparel deals (ARI
helmets and TCX boots) and receives bonuses from Honda for wins, his
normal way of making a living will be under threat.
"The days of going to a track and seeing a 200-horspower, fire-breathing
superbike will be over," Hayes said. "Right now our series is about to
do a 180. Right now none of our sponsors are from outside the industry.
But DMG is not into selling motorcycles. They're into entertainment. One
of my goals was to get a factory superbike ride and with all of the
changes, that isn't going to exist."
Now he's going to be looking into his options, considering he's married,
to another motorcycle racer, no less, and wants to be able to make a
living doing what he loves best. With the top-tier international World
Superbike Series adding a second race in the U.S. in 2009 and looking to
get more American riders (there are none presently in the series), Hayes
may accomplish his ultimate goal at the pinnacle of two-wheel road racing.
"I'm shopping right now," Hayes said. "I'm talking to them and I've at
least got my foot in the door. I've got some options. But right now, I'm
really focused on riding well this season."
Meanwhile, where are the details of those rules? I guess the NASBike
boys are more focused on getting and cashing those tire company checks
that will come with their spec tire deals...
Champ wrote:
> A couple of comments were printed in MCN last week from Neil Hodgson
> and Chas Davies with regard to all the changes being discussed wrt
> racing in the USA from next year. Both of them think that they
> personally won't be very interested in racing 130bhp 600s, and also
> that few other non-US riders are likely to look on racing in the US as
> a 'destination series' (i.e. more than a stepping stone) if these
> changes come to pass.
Yeah, their comments were in the CN issue here on the Fontana races.
Among comments by Neil: "My personal thoughts on the rules changes is,
it's just alienating America from the rest of the world, which is a big
mistake, a big mistake. ...and the rest of the world would think that
the American racing's crap. And that's the truth." And he says it won't
change who wins and who loses. Davies sounds pretty skeptical about the
rules and how they'll police the whole thing. And then there's Edwards'
comments about coming back here next season, which he has been rumored
to be considering for a while. Now he's saying it will take a boatload
of money, if he's going to race restricted 600s it will be for the money.
At the end of the day that's mostly why guys come here from elsewhere to
race, to land a factory job, to get paid. But if NASBike manages what
they seem determined to do - wrestle meaningful influence from the
factories and make it possible for non-factory teams to win races - then
the benefit simply won't be there for the factories and they'll likely
stop paying those six- and seven-figure salaries. I can't imagine all
this non-industry sponsorship that's going to start flowing in any day
now will be nearly enough to create that level of rider income - if top
teams like Ten Kate and Alstare in quasi-non-factory WSB can't pay more
than $150k, how are private teams like Erion and Graves here going to
manage that and more, once the factory support checks stop flowing?
And here from Josh Hayes in a newspaper column linked by Soup today:
But racing is not all that is on Hayes' plate these days. The AMA's
racing arm has been bought out by the Daytona Motorsports Group, headed
by NASCAR's first family, the Frances. With a decreased emphasis on the
manufacturer's adage of "win on Sunday, sell on Monday," and an
increased focus on creating a great racing show similar to NASCAR, Hayes
believes the sport is facing some seriously rough waters.
"It's absolutely crazy," Hayes said. "Next year, racing in the U.S. is
going to be completely different. They want it to be a better show, like
NASCAR, where 10 guys at any race can win. They're hoping that gets some
of the NASCAR crowd to watch. But motorcycle racing draws a different
crowd, techie geeks who argue about it on message boards. They're hardcore."
The biggest problem Hayes has with the changes looming on the horizon is
the manufacturers will be shut out of the equation. DMG will be going to
specification ECUs (engine control units), tires and fuel, each provided
by a single supplier. Whereas now where the rules allow some diversity
in these areas amongst manufacturers, this will fall by the wayside as
AMA drops to two classes, one for 1,000 cc bikes and one for 600 cc
bikes. Both will differ little from their street-going kin. Since he is
a salary racer paid by Honda with endorsements from apparel deals (ARI
helmets and TCX boots) and receives bonuses from Honda for wins, his
normal way of making a living will be under threat.
"The days of going to a track and seeing a 200-horspower, fire-breathing
superbike will be over," Hayes said. "Right now our series is about to
do a 180. Right now none of our sponsors are from outside the industry.
But DMG is not into selling motorcycles. They're into entertainment. One
of my goals was to get a factory superbike ride and with all of the
changes, that isn't going to exist."
Now he's going to be looking into his options, considering he's married,
to another motorcycle racer, no less, and wants to be able to make a
living doing what he loves best. With the top-tier international World
Superbike Series adding a second race in the U.S. in 2009 and looking to
get more American riders (there are none presently in the series), Hayes
may accomplish his ultimate goal at the pinnacle of two-wheel road racing.
"I'm shopping right now," Hayes said. "I'm talking to them and I've at
least got my foot in the door. I've got some options. But right now, I'm
really focused on riding well this season."
Meanwhile, where are the details of those rules? I guess the NASBike
boys are more focused on getting and cashing those tire company checks
that will come with their spec tire deals...
Re: Brits racing in the US, and their view on US racing post 2008
"Champ" <news@champ.org.uk> wrote in message
news:4qig24tukbd8qai41hl8q34f74uertohn5@4ax . com ...
>A couple of comments were printed in MCN last week from Neil Hodgson
> and Chas Davies with regard to all the changes being discussed wrt
> racing in the USA from next year. Both of them think that they
> personally won't be very interested in racing 130bhp 600s, and also
> that few other non-US riders are likely to look on racing in the US as
> a 'destination series' (i.e. more than a stepping stone) if these
> changes come to pass.
> --
> Champ
> neal at champ dot org dot uk
After watching Oulton Park and Brands Hatch in the past few weeks; I hope
some Americans decide to check out BSB.
--
Andrew
00 Daytona
00 Speed Triple
71 Kawi H1
05 Kiddo
"Champ" <news@champ.org.uk> wrote in message
news:4qig24tukbd8qai41hl8q34f74uertohn5@4ax . com ...
>A couple of comments were printed in MCN last week from Neil Hodgson
> and Chas Davies with regard to all the changes being discussed wrt
> racing in the USA from next year. Both of them think that they
> personally won't be very interested in racing 130bhp 600s, and also
> that few other non-US riders are likely to look on racing in the US as
> a 'destination series' (i.e. more than a stepping stone) if these
> changes come to pass.
> --
> Champ
> neal at champ dot org dot uk
After watching Oulton Park and Brands Hatch in the past few weeks; I hope
some Americans decide to check out BSB.
--
Andrew
00 Daytona
00 Speed Triple
71 Kawi H1
05 Kiddo
Re: Brits racing in the US, and their view on US racing post 2008
Andrew <yogig.no.spamm.spam.no._@hotmail . com > Tue, 13 May 2008 11:40:07
>After watching Oulton Park and Brands Hatch in the past few weeks; I
>hope some Americans decide to check out BSB.
I was at Brands Hatch on Sunday. I did way too much walking and ended up
on the back of the circuit around Dingly Dell. I started to wonder, if
you could just forget the politics for a moment, what would it take to
get MotoGP there? The biggest problem is the thing that actually ruined
the races on Sunday. There's no service access road and so no way to
rescue a rider or deal with some wreckage problems than to run a pace
car. The alternative is what we had during a WSS600 race at a WSB
meeting there when the race was red flagged three times. There are a
couple of places where the banks are a bit close but nothing a weekend
with a big digger couldn't sort out. Now they've smoothed out Dingly
Dell, it's really just the exit of Druids hairpin and Surtees[1] where
the runoff is really marginal.
Any road up, Shakey is doing what he's paid to. Haslam is showing that
he may be fast but he's just too flawed. A Suzuki blew up; wasn't that
why they let them run modified cranks and conrods 4 years ago? Camier's
coming good and nearly there. Crutchlow seems to be the real deal. At
least they did manage to run the re-scheduled meeting, but mixing it
with club racing was a mistake.
So. What if. Mladin and Duhamel retire. Spies goes to MotoGP. Hodgson,
Davies leave. 3 or 4 others migrate to WSB, WSS600 and BSB. Where does
that leave DMG when they have no stars at all?
[1]Remember Fogarty/Reynolds and Chili?
--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar . com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: * w w w .ecademy . com / T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: * w w w .voidstar . com / skype:julian.bond?chat
Contains Flammable Gas Under Pressure
Andrew <yogig.no.spamm.spam.no._@hotmail . com > Tue, 13 May 2008 11:40:07
>After watching Oulton Park and Brands Hatch in the past few weeks; I
>hope some Americans decide to check out BSB.
I was at Brands Hatch on Sunday. I did way too much walking and ended up
on the back of the circuit around Dingly Dell. I started to wonder, if
you could just forget the politics for a moment, what would it take to
get MotoGP there? The biggest problem is the thing that actually ruined
the races on Sunday. There's no service access road and so no way to
rescue a rider or deal with some wreckage problems than to run a pace
car. The alternative is what we had during a WSS600 race at a WSB
meeting there when the race was red flagged three times. There are a
couple of places where the banks are a bit close but nothing a weekend
with a big digger couldn't sort out. Now they've smoothed out Dingly
Dell, it's really just the exit of Druids hairpin and Surtees[1] where
the runoff is really marginal.
Any road up, Shakey is doing what he's paid to. Haslam is showing that
he may be fast but he's just too flawed. A Suzuki blew up; wasn't that
why they let them run modified cranks and conrods 4 years ago? Camier's
coming good and nearly there. Crutchlow seems to be the real deal. At
least they did manage to run the re-scheduled meeting, but mixing it
with club racing was a mistake.
So. What if. Mladin and Duhamel retire. Spies goes to MotoGP. Hodgson,
Davies leave. 3 or 4 others migrate to WSB, WSS600 and BSB. Where does
that leave DMG when they have no stars at all?
[1]Remember Fogarty/Reynolds and Chili?
--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar . com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: * w w w .ecademy . com / T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: * w w w .voidstar . com / skype:julian.bond?chat
Contains Flammable Gas Under Pressure
Re: Brits racing in the US, and their view on US racing post 2008
Julian Bond wrote:
> I was at Brands Hatch on Sunday. I did way too much walking and ended up
> on the back of the circuit around Dingly Dell. I started to wonder, if
> you could just forget the politics for a moment, what would it take to
> get MotoGP there? The biggest problem is the thing that actually ruined
> the races on Sunday. There's no service access road and so no way to
> rescue a rider or deal with some wreckage problems than to run a pace
> car. The alternative is what we had during a WSS600 race at a WSB
> meeting there when the race was red flagged three times. There are a
> couple of places where the banks are a bit close but nothing a weekend
> with a big digger couldn't sort out. Now they've smoothed out Dingly
> Dell, it's really just the exit of Druids hairpin and Surtees[1] where
> the runoff is really marginal.
I thought the real problem at Brands was along the front straight,
coming through Clark's? No matter, it would be great if MotoGP could
run there, that series has dropped into a certain mediocrity regarding
the circuits they use. And a lot has to do with safety concerns, it
seems.
> So. What if. Mladin and Duhamel retire. Spies goes to MotoGP. Hodgson,
> Davies leave. 3 or 4 others migrate to WSB, WSS600 and BSB. Where does
> that leave DMG when they have no stars at all?
Right where they seem bound and determined to put themselves - in a
position of essentially starting from scratch. The most cynical view
of this is that they bought the AMA just to eliminate competition,
regarding what they were intending to do themselves all along.
Slightly less cynical is that they also got track dates out of it,
dates they would want, and the name and continuity of a series already
established. At least marginally optimistic is that they wanted to run
the existing series with some real adjustments to the way it was
operating but with real continuity. Somewhere between the last two
lies any desire to continue to operate with the same stars, which have
to be connected to the notion of retaining the factory teams vs.
driving them out. But if they really intend to build something
entirely new out of the ruins of their inflicted destruction over
time, then retaining current stars really isn't that important - it's
not like they value those riders or the fans that follow them now,
they want hungry new guys who won't publicly complain about crap
bikes, crap tires, crap tracks, and new fans who know little about
real roadracing.
A lot will be determined once they announce specific rules and a final
class structure, and we can see how interested the factories are in
whatever series that describes. No factories, no stars (except the
ones who can't find other work or don't retire). Mediocre factory
interest or no real SBs, no big stars.
Julian Bond wrote:
> I was at Brands Hatch on Sunday. I did way too much walking and ended up
> on the back of the circuit around Dingly Dell. I started to wonder, if
> you could just forget the politics for a moment, what would it take to
> get MotoGP there? The biggest problem is the thing that actually ruined
> the races on Sunday. There's no service access road and so no way to
> rescue a rider or deal with some wreckage problems than to run a pace
> car. The alternative is what we had during a WSS600 race at a WSB
> meeting there when the race was red flagged three times. There are a
> couple of places where the banks are a bit close but nothing a weekend
> with a big digger couldn't sort out. Now they've smoothed out Dingly
> Dell, it's really just the exit of Druids hairpin and Surtees[1] where
> the runoff is really marginal.
I thought the real problem at Brands was along the front straight,
coming through Clark's? No matter, it would be great if MotoGP could
run there, that series has dropped into a certain mediocrity regarding
the circuits they use. And a lot has to do with safety concerns, it
seems.
> So. What if. Mladin and Duhamel retire. Spies goes to MotoGP. Hodgson,
> Davies leave. 3 or 4 others migrate to WSB, WSS600 and BSB. Where does
> that leave DMG when they have no stars at all?
Right where they seem bound and determined to put themselves - in a
position of essentially starting from scratch. The most cynical view
of this is that they bought the AMA just to eliminate competition,
regarding what they were intending to do themselves all along.
Slightly less cynical is that they also got track dates out of it,
dates they would want, and the name and continuity of a series already
established. At least marginally optimistic is that they wanted to run
the existing series with some real adjustments to the way it was
operating but with real continuity. Somewhere between the last two
lies any desire to continue to operate with the same stars, which have
to be connected to the notion of retaining the factory teams vs.
driving them out. But if they really intend to build something
entirely new out of the ruins of their inflicted destruction over
time, then retaining current stars really isn't that important - it's
not like they value those riders or the fans that follow them now,
they want hungry new guys who won't publicly complain about crap
bikes, crap tires, crap tracks, and new fans who know little about
real roadracing.
A lot will be determined once they announce specific rules and a final
class structure, and we can see how interested the factories are in
whatever series that describes. No factories, no stars (except the
ones who can't find other work or don't retire). Mediocre factory
interest or no real SBs, no big stars.
Re: Brits racing in the US, and their view on US racing post 2008
Julian Bond wrote:
> I was at Brands Hatch on Sunday. I did way too much walking and ended
> up on the back of the circuit around Dingly Dell. I started to wonder,
> if you could just forget the politics for a moment, what would it take
> to get MotoGP there? The biggest problem is the thing that actually
> ruined the races on Sunday. There's no service access road and so no
> way to rescue a rider or deal with some wreckage problems than to run a
> pace car.
A few years ago I was helping Champ at Brands Hatch and we had to rescue
the (endurance) bike and rider. We spent a happy, happy 40 minutes
driving round Kent trying to access Dingly Dell (more Westfield, IIRC).
Getting the hightop Mercedes van jammed in a tunnel was funny too.
--
Simon
Julian Bond wrote:
> I was at Brands Hatch on Sunday. I did way too much walking and ended
> up on the back of the circuit around Dingly Dell. I started to wonder,
> if you could just forget the politics for a moment, what would it take
> to get MotoGP there? The biggest problem is the thing that actually
> ruined the races on Sunday. There's no service access road and so no
> way to rescue a rider or deal with some wreckage problems than to run a
> pace car.
A few years ago I was helping Champ at Brands Hatch and we had to rescue
the (endurance) bike and rider. We spent a happy, happy 40 minutes
driving round Kent trying to access Dingly Dell (more Westfield, IIRC).
Getting the hightop Mercedes van jammed in a tunnel was funny too.
--
Simon
Re: Brits racing in the US, and their view on US racing post 2008
On Tue, 13 May 2008 11:40:07 -0700, "Andrew"
<yogig.no.spamm.spam.no._@hotmail . com > wrote:
>>A couple of comments were printed in MCN last week from Neil Hodgson
>> and Chas Davies with regard to all the changes being discussed wrt
>> racing in the USA from next year. Both of them think that they
>> personally won't be very interested in racing 130bhp 600s, and also
>> that few other non-US riders are likely to look on racing in the US as
>> a 'destination series' (i.e. more than a stepping stone) if these
>> changes come to pass.
>
>After watching Oulton Park and Brands Hatch in the past few weeks; I hope
>some Americans decide to check out BSB.
It's looking like a good season in BSB, I agree. I think Shane Byrne
is probably going to win it without too much trouble, but the racing
is certainly good at each round.
--
Champ
On Tue, 13 May 2008 11:40:07 -0700, "Andrew"
<yogig.no.spamm.spam.no._@hotmail . com > wrote:
>>A couple of comments were printed in MCN last week from Neil Hodgson
>> and Chas Davies with regard to all the changes being discussed wrt
>> racing in the USA from next year. Both of them think that they
>> personally won't be very interested in racing 130bhp 600s, and also
>> that few other non-US riders are likely to look on racing in the US as
>> a 'destination series' (i.e. more than a stepping stone) if these
>> changes come to pass.
>
>After watching Oulton Park and Brands Hatch in the past few weeks; I hope
>some Americans decide to check out BSB.
It's looking like a good season in BSB, I agree. I think Shane Byrne
is probably going to win it without too much trouble, but the racing
is certainly good at each round.
--
Champ
Re: Brits racing in the US, and their view on US racing post 2008
Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> Tue, 13 May 2008 22:25:19
>It's looking like a good season in BSB, I agree. I think Shane Byrne
>is probably going to win it without too much trouble, but the racing
>is certainly good at each round.
Does anyone now what happened to Rob Frost? He had a big off in the
Supersports race.
--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar . com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: * w w w .ecademy . com / T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: * w w w .voidstar . com / skype:julian.bond?chat
Contains Flammable Gas Under Pressure
Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> Tue, 13 May 2008 22:25:19
>It's looking like a good season in BSB, I agree. I think Shane Byrne
>is probably going to win it without too much trouble, but the racing
>is certainly good at each round.
Does anyone now what happened to Rob Frost? He had a big off in the
Supersports race.
--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar . com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: * w w w .ecademy . com / T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: * w w w .voidstar . com / skype:julian.bond?chat
Contains Flammable Gas Under Pressure
Re: Brits racing in the US, and their view on US racing post 2008
On Wed, 14 May 2008 07:54:52 +0100, Julian Bond
<julian_bond@voidstar . com > wrote:
>Does anyone now what happened to Rob Frost? He had a big off in the
>Supersports race.
Again. I think he's crashed in every meeting so far.
I might be able to find out - I was sat in a pub in the Isle of Man
with him the weekend before last.
Allow me a little moment of reflected glory - there was Slick Bass
(former mechanic to Fogarty, Hislop, Dunlop - you name it), Dave Leach
(four times TT winner), the aforementioned Rob Frost, and, er, me and
my mate Keith. In a lock in at 1am in a pub in Ramsey. I mostly kept
quiet and listened :-)
--
Champ
On Wed, 14 May 2008 07:54:52 +0100, Julian Bond
<julian_bond@voidstar . com > wrote:
>Does anyone now what happened to Rob Frost? He had a big off in the
>Supersports race.
Again. I think he's crashed in every meeting so far.
I might be able to find out - I was sat in a pub in the Isle of Man
with him the weekend before last.
Allow me a little moment of reflected glory - there was Slick Bass
(former mechanic to Fogarty, Hislop, Dunlop - you name it), Dave Leach
(four times TT winner), the aforementioned Rob Frost, and, er, me and
my mate Keith. In a lock in at 1am in a pub in Ramsey. I mostly kept
quiet and listened :-)
--
Champ
