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another conspiracy theory
I was just reading the silliness that "And away we go" thread
degenerated into and something occurred to me. Around 2003, I was
cornerworking at Laguna and one of my fellow workers told me over
lunch that he had some "inside info" that a second series of
motorcycle road racing was on the drawing board, one that would
emulate NASCAR and would primarily be about racing ovals. I thought
it was the most ridiculous idea and that if indeed such a thing were
to be implemented, it would likely not last a season, as people would
start dying left and right.
Fast-forward to now and what do we have? We have an organization with
NASCAR ties and one that happens to own Daytona acquiring AMA Pro
Racing. First order of business -- class restructuring that assures
that the Daytona round will continue on as a "premier" event of the
season. But what else could they do with this? We have lots of
tracks that many think are inadequate or barely adequate for the big
bikes and would require lots money to be better off in terms of
safety. But that money would almost exclusively benefit bikes. It
wouldn't have as big an impact on car road racing at those places, so
it makes for a rather limited ROI. At that same time, we already have
a someone proven formula of racing on road courses squeezed into
NASCAR facilities (Daytona and California Speedway are already on the
calendar).
Suppose the grand vision is to bring bikes to the masses, similar to
supercross' inception, by scaling down on the big bikes and
concentrating on racing middleweights on ovals. It might even become
a NASCAR pre-show (shudder). What if what we're seeing now is an
eventual manifestation of the earlier ideas I heard that rumor about?
If so, it would really really bad. There would be no incentive
whatsoever to maintain any compatibility with international racing.
It would explain the rush to uproot all the current sponsorship and
rule structure.
degenerated into and something occurred to me. Around 2003, I was
cornerworking at Laguna and one of my fellow workers told me over
lunch that he had some "inside info" that a second series of
motorcycle road racing was on the drawing board, one that would
emulate NASCAR and would primarily be about racing ovals. I thought
it was the most ridiculous idea and that if indeed such a thing were
to be implemented, it would likely not last a season, as people would
start dying left and right.
Fast-forward to now and what do we have? We have an organization with
NASCAR ties and one that happens to own Daytona acquiring AMA Pro
Racing. First order of business -- class restructuring that assures
that the Daytona round will continue on as a "premier" event of the
season. But what else could they do with this? We have lots of
tracks that many think are inadequate or barely adequate for the big
bikes and would require lots money to be better off in terms of
safety. But that money would almost exclusively benefit bikes. It
wouldn't have as big an impact on car road racing at those places, so
it makes for a rather limited ROI. At that same time, we already have
a someone proven formula of racing on road courses squeezed into
NASCAR facilities (Daytona and California Speedway are already on the
calendar).
Suppose the grand vision is to bring bikes to the masses, similar to
supercross' inception, by scaling down on the big bikes and
concentrating on racing middleweights on ovals. It might even become
a NASCAR pre-show (shudder). What if what we're seeing now is an
eventual manifestation of the earlier ideas I heard that rumor about?
If so, it would really really bad. There would be no incentive
whatsoever to maintain any compatibility with international racing.
It would explain the rush to uproot all the current sponsorship and
rule structure.
Alexey wrote:
> I was just reading the silliness that "And away we go" thread
> degenerated into and something occurred to me. Around 2003, I was
> cornerworking at Laguna and one of my fellow workers told me over
> lunch that he had some "inside info" that a second series of
> motorcycle road racing was on the drawing board, one that would
> emulate NASCAR and would primarily be about racing ovals. I thought
> it was the most ridiculous idea and that if indeed such a thing were
> to be implemented, it would likely not last a season, as people would
> start dying left and right.
>
> Fast-forward to now and what do we have? We have an organization with
> NASCAR ties and one that happens to own Daytona acquiring AMA Pro
> Racing. First order of business -- class restructuring that assures
> that the Daytona round will continue on as a "premier" event of the
> season. But what else could they do with this? We have lots of
> tracks that many think are inadequate or barely adequate for the big
> bikes and would require lots money to be better off in terms of
> safety. But that money would almost exclusively benefit bikes. It
> wouldn't have as big an impact on car road racing at those places, so
> it makes for a rather limited ROI. At that same time, we already have
> a someone proven formula of racing on road courses squeezed into
> NASCAR facilities (Daytona and California Speedway are already on the
> calendar).
>
> Suppose the grand vision is to bring bikes to the masses, similar to
> supercross' inception, by scaling down on the big bikes and
> concentrating on racing middleweights on ovals. It might even become
> a NASCAR pre-show (shudder). What if what we're seeing now is an
> eventual manifestation of the earlier ideas I heard that rumor about?
> If so, it would really really bad. There would be no incentive
> whatsoever to maintain any compatibility with international racing.
> It would explain the rush to uproot all the current sponsorship and
> rule structure.
I suspect the roots of this whole business go back to that first
exploding Dunlop on the banking at Daytona. After a few of those they
told the AMA they wanted to switch the 200 to SSport, which the AMA
fought against, probably suggesting that they try to fix the track
first. After Daytona was ready to pull the whole plug and race WERA 600s
instead, in 2004 the two sides came to an agreement - switch to
first-year middleweight FX as a compromise, and get rid of some of the
banking, no doubt in part so SB and SStock could continue to run there.
My guess is that part of the reason Daytona wanted SSport was all the
close finishes the class has had there down the years. That first FX
year, 2005, Duhamel won by 42 seconds and only three bikes were on the
same lap, the three factory Hondas. As Colin Fraser said recently in a
Soup interview, "And I would assume the other comment [That the AMA had
already outgrown two tracks] is aimed towards Daytona, because there
were two changes made. The switch to the venue for the Daytona AMA
races, and the switch to Formula Xtreme with the 600-based Formula
Xtreme class. I think the people at Daytona International Speedway have
a very clear message that nobody likes their new track, and nobody likes
their feature class. That was meant to be appealing to everybody, and it
was a universally disliked pair of decisions. Maybe one should've been
made before the other, or wait to see how it affects the two, but it
didn't help."
Talking about arriving at the class structure, he also said this: "Well,
I think there were sort of three things on the plate going in. There was
MotoST, which is established. There was Daytona Superbike, which has
been discussed within the confines of Grand-Am, and with Roger and
Daytona International Speedway for quite some time, that kind of format,
and with some of the track owners. And then there was the idea that
probably some kind of liter bike would be necessary, because liter bike
sales are very important."
Now we pretty much know that last part isn't likely true, they went to
LA to talk to the OEMs without any literbike class, although that may
have been partly tactical. But the second part is the interesting thing,
that they'd already conceptualized daytona superbike (the concept
doesn't deserve any capital letters, let alone all caps). My guess is
their plan was to toss the AMA out, run dsb in the 200, make it cheaper,
more stock, more controlled than FX, trying to guarantee close races.
The first class, Moto-ST, was the test case, running it in Grand-Am
events, experimenting with rules, with mixing different kinds of bikes, etc.
Note that we really haven't left DIS yet, all the focus is there. My
guess is their middleweight dsb plan was the way to ease back into using
essentially the old course, including both bankings. As they have said,
the compromise of 2004 didn't work out to their satisfaction.
Then the AMA announced they were getting out of "the promotional side of
racing", which must have changed all of DMG's plans. In the end what
really mattered there was how much they paid for the series, because the
AMA went farther than they originally said they would, totally selling
it off without any future involvement, and how much DMG paid would
suggest what they thought they were buying - just eliminating
competition or acquiring a valuable property to be the basis of their
"vision"? But that's information we don't have.
So now they have a series which runs at nine tracks other than Daytona,
only one of them a bowl, and a number which have very little connection
to the Frances, NASCAR or DMG. Are they likely to dump any of these
venues, especially since they have established bike crowds? They could
expand elsewhere, but these guys recognize that there is a limit to how
many races the current teams can run, given their current financing. In
the longer run I can see them switching, especially if this "vision"
doesn't sprout wings and take off, old fans staying away in droves. The
limited class structure also suggests that they may have been intending
to run this more at Grand-Am races, try to win over car guys. NASCAR, I
doubt it, although an occasional "exhibition" is a possibility, I
suppose. Ugh.
On straight oval racing in general, I can't believe these guys are so
insane that they think that's possible. But expanding into certain ovals
with road courses, ones near large metropolitan areas, is quite
possible. From a western perspective, that's already been tried, the AMA
has run at Fontana, Vegas, PPIR and Phoenix, and are there any others
out here? I also note that oval road courses aren't all that conducive
to watching from the outside stands, can't really see that much. So it's
not all that much like Supercross.
The thing about all this is that it's almost impossible to know what
they intend. Given how half-baked it all seems and how many inaccurate
and even dishonest statements have been made by the principals, they
could be planning almost anything. Or almost nothing, their focus
perhaps not having moved much farther than fixing Daytona and running
their little Moto-ST experiment.
One thing I don't think they will do is continue associations with
"world" racing any longer than they have to. That means they might pull
out of Laguna (if MotoGP doesn't first) and perhaps WSB at Miller and
maybe Barber. If this thing takes off at all it doesn't really serve
their purposes to allow it to be directly compared to real racing. And I
doubt the Red Bull Rookies will stay either - would NASCAR run an
American Formula One training class as a support class? Get real.
> I was just reading the silliness that "And away we go" thread
> degenerated into and something occurred to me. Around 2003, I was
> cornerworking at Laguna and one of my fellow workers told me over
> lunch that he had some "inside info" that a second series of
> motorcycle road racing was on the drawing board, one that would
> emulate NASCAR and would primarily be about racing ovals. I thought
> it was the most ridiculous idea and that if indeed such a thing were
> to be implemented, it would likely not last a season, as people would
> start dying left and right.
>
> Fast-forward to now and what do we have? We have an organization with
> NASCAR ties and one that happens to own Daytona acquiring AMA Pro
> Racing. First order of business -- class restructuring that assures
> that the Daytona round will continue on as a "premier" event of the
> season. But what else could they do with this? We have lots of
> tracks that many think are inadequate or barely adequate for the big
> bikes and would require lots money to be better off in terms of
> safety. But that money would almost exclusively benefit bikes. It
> wouldn't have as big an impact on car road racing at those places, so
> it makes for a rather limited ROI. At that same time, we already have
> a someone proven formula of racing on road courses squeezed into
> NASCAR facilities (Daytona and California Speedway are already on the
> calendar).
>
> Suppose the grand vision is to bring bikes to the masses, similar to
> supercross' inception, by scaling down on the big bikes and
> concentrating on racing middleweights on ovals. It might even become
> a NASCAR pre-show (shudder). What if what we're seeing now is an
> eventual manifestation of the earlier ideas I heard that rumor about?
> If so, it would really really bad. There would be no incentive
> whatsoever to maintain any compatibility with international racing.
> It would explain the rush to uproot all the current sponsorship and
> rule structure.
I suspect the roots of this whole business go back to that first
exploding Dunlop on the banking at Daytona. After a few of those they
told the AMA they wanted to switch the 200 to SSport, which the AMA
fought against, probably suggesting that they try to fix the track
first. After Daytona was ready to pull the whole plug and race WERA 600s
instead, in 2004 the two sides came to an agreement - switch to
first-year middleweight FX as a compromise, and get rid of some of the
banking, no doubt in part so SB and SStock could continue to run there.
My guess is that part of the reason Daytona wanted SSport was all the
close finishes the class has had there down the years. That first FX
year, 2005, Duhamel won by 42 seconds and only three bikes were on the
same lap, the three factory Hondas. As Colin Fraser said recently in a
Soup interview, "And I would assume the other comment [That the AMA had
already outgrown two tracks] is aimed towards Daytona, because there
were two changes made. The switch to the venue for the Daytona AMA
races, and the switch to Formula Xtreme with the 600-based Formula
Xtreme class. I think the people at Daytona International Speedway have
a very clear message that nobody likes their new track, and nobody likes
their feature class. That was meant to be appealing to everybody, and it
was a universally disliked pair of decisions. Maybe one should've been
made before the other, or wait to see how it affects the two, but it
didn't help."
Talking about arriving at the class structure, he also said this: "Well,
I think there were sort of three things on the plate going in. There was
MotoST, which is established. There was Daytona Superbike, which has
been discussed within the confines of Grand-Am, and with Roger and
Daytona International Speedway for quite some time, that kind of format,
and with some of the track owners. And then there was the idea that
probably some kind of liter bike would be necessary, because liter bike
sales are very important."
Now we pretty much know that last part isn't likely true, they went to
LA to talk to the OEMs without any literbike class, although that may
have been partly tactical. But the second part is the interesting thing,
that they'd already conceptualized daytona superbike (the concept
doesn't deserve any capital letters, let alone all caps). My guess is
their plan was to toss the AMA out, run dsb in the 200, make it cheaper,
more stock, more controlled than FX, trying to guarantee close races.
The first class, Moto-ST, was the test case, running it in Grand-Am
events, experimenting with rules, with mixing different kinds of bikes, etc.
Note that we really haven't left DIS yet, all the focus is there. My
guess is their middleweight dsb plan was the way to ease back into using
essentially the old course, including both bankings. As they have said,
the compromise of 2004 didn't work out to their satisfaction.
Then the AMA announced they were getting out of "the promotional side of
racing", which must have changed all of DMG's plans. In the end what
really mattered there was how much they paid for the series, because the
AMA went farther than they originally said they would, totally selling
it off without any future involvement, and how much DMG paid would
suggest what they thought they were buying - just eliminating
competition or acquiring a valuable property to be the basis of their
"vision"? But that's information we don't have.
So now they have a series which runs at nine tracks other than Daytona,
only one of them a bowl, and a number which have very little connection
to the Frances, NASCAR or DMG. Are they likely to dump any of these
venues, especially since they have established bike crowds? They could
expand elsewhere, but these guys recognize that there is a limit to how
many races the current teams can run, given their current financing. In
the longer run I can see them switching, especially if this "vision"
doesn't sprout wings and take off, old fans staying away in droves. The
limited class structure also suggests that they may have been intending
to run this more at Grand-Am races, try to win over car guys. NASCAR, I
doubt it, although an occasional "exhibition" is a possibility, I
suppose. Ugh.
On straight oval racing in general, I can't believe these guys are so
insane that they think that's possible. But expanding into certain ovals
with road courses, ones near large metropolitan areas, is quite
possible. From a western perspective, that's already been tried, the AMA
has run at Fontana, Vegas, PPIR and Phoenix, and are there any others
out here? I also note that oval road courses aren't all that conducive
to watching from the outside stands, can't really see that much. So it's
not all that much like Supercross.
The thing about all this is that it's almost impossible to know what
they intend. Given how half-baked it all seems and how many inaccurate
and even dishonest statements have been made by the principals, they
could be planning almost anything. Or almost nothing, their focus
perhaps not having moved much farther than fixing Daytona and running
their little Moto-ST experiment.
One thing I don't think they will do is continue associations with
"world" racing any longer than they have to. That means they might pull
out of Laguna (if MotoGP doesn't first) and perhaps WSB at Miller and
maybe Barber. If this thing takes off at all it doesn't really serve
their purposes to allow it to be directly compared to real racing. And I
doubt the Red Bull Rookies will stay either - would NASCAR run an
American Formula One training class as a support class? Get real.
On 2008-05-13 14:49:57 -0400, Alexey <inline_four@yahoo.com> said:
> I was just reading the silliness that "And away we go" thread
> degenerated into and something occurred to me. Around 2003, I was
> cornerworking at Laguna and one of my fellow workers told me over
> lunch that he had some "inside info" that a second series of
> motorcycle road racing was on the drawing board, one that would
> emulate NASCAR and would primarily be about racing ovals. I thought
> it was the most ridiculous idea and that if indeed such a thing were
> to be implemented, it would likely not last a season, as people would
> start dying left and right.
I'm unsure of the exact timeline now, but ISTR the first time I payed
much attention to any of those rumors was either right before, or just
after the announcement that Chevy was leaving, after that they seemed
to lay down until that Patti Depetri(?) chic took over and started
showing folks the door and by the time Honda walked from the comp.
committee I think the die had been firmly cast. It's sorta' funny that
a lot of people blame Dingman for all this, but I'm fairly certain he
couldn't have orchestrated the sale without the majority of the board's
approval and they were either just completely fed-up with all the
graft, or "someone" was pushing them to sell racing like they should
have years before, (or both) and I can think of only one guy who was
positioned to have that kind of access, as well as some big-time $$
backing. Now, whether it was outside-in deal, that is, was there an
outside (covert?) manipulation of the board, or if the financial burden
Proracing was placing on the parent just untenable, probably will never
be revealed, but if I had to choose right now I'd think a little of
both, but with a lot of emphasis on a back door and that "someone", or
"some entity" "somehow" convinced the majority they were ill-prepared,
either financially or personnel wise, to continue..
>
> Fast-forward to now and what do we have? We have an organization with
> NASCAR ties and one that happens to own Daytona acquiring AMA Pro
> Racing. First order of business -- class restructuring that assures
> that the Daytona round will continue on as a "premier" event of the
> season. But what else could they do with this? We have lots of
> tracks that many think are inadequate or barely adequate for the big
> bikes and would require lots money to be better off in terms of
> safety. But that money would almost exclusively benefit bikes. It
> wouldn't have as big an impact on car road racing at those places, so
> it makes for a rather limited ROI. At that same time, we already have
> a someone proven formula of racing on road courses squeezed into
> NASCAR facilities (Daytona and California Speedway are already on the
> calendar).
The track safety thing is more than likely a red herring/strawman, not
so much because there are very real safety concerns, but because there
will be little reason to ever move away from the bowls once they're in
play..
>
> Suppose the grand vision is to bring bikes to the masses, similar to
> supercross' inception, by scaling down on the big bikes and
> concentrating on racing middleweights on ovals. It might even become
> a NASCAR pre-show (shudder).
Please never repeat that again, ever!!
> What if what we're seeing now is an
> eventual manifestation of the earlier ideas I heard that rumor about?
I think there's very little chance it was anything other..
> If so, it would really really bad. There would be no incentive
> whatsoever to maintain any compatibility with international racing.
> It would explain the rush to uproot all the current sponsorship and
> rule structure.
What I see is a Mega-huge racing promotor that evidently invested time
and a few bucks to acquire most all of M/C racing and knowing how those
guys don't take a dump without a plan I doubt they're too worried about
international compatibility, or, for that matter, much (including past
fans, or OEM's) that may get in their way to bring M/C racing more
mainstream according to *their business model* and we're pretty much
just on the sidelines. What I do find hard to understand is all the
name calling BS about DMG, after all, they're only doing what they do
and had the old Proracing business model been a little more effective,
or half-way solvent we wouldn't even be talking about them today. So,
regardless of your feelings about the new direction, if blame needs to
be made it's hard not to lay it squarely on past Proracing regimes,
don't you think?
Be that as it may, to me the hook on all this is not so much the
classes, current fans, tires, venues or even the OEM's, it's if DMG can
deliver the outside sponsorship and given our current economic climate
that very much remains to be seen...
> I was just reading the silliness that "And away we go" thread
> degenerated into and something occurred to me. Around 2003, I was
> cornerworking at Laguna and one of my fellow workers told me over
> lunch that he had some "inside info" that a second series of
> motorcycle road racing was on the drawing board, one that would
> emulate NASCAR and would primarily be about racing ovals. I thought
> it was the most ridiculous idea and that if indeed such a thing were
> to be implemented, it would likely not last a season, as people would
> start dying left and right.
I'm unsure of the exact timeline now, but ISTR the first time I payed
much attention to any of those rumors was either right before, or just
after the announcement that Chevy was leaving, after that they seemed
to lay down until that Patti Depetri(?) chic took over and started
showing folks the door and by the time Honda walked from the comp.
committee I think the die had been firmly cast. It's sorta' funny that
a lot of people blame Dingman for all this, but I'm fairly certain he
couldn't have orchestrated the sale without the majority of the board's
approval and they were either just completely fed-up with all the
graft, or "someone" was pushing them to sell racing like they should
have years before, (or both) and I can think of only one guy who was
positioned to have that kind of access, as well as some big-time $$
backing. Now, whether it was outside-in deal, that is, was there an
outside (covert?) manipulation of the board, or if the financial burden
Proracing was placing on the parent just untenable, probably will never
be revealed, but if I had to choose right now I'd think a little of
both, but with a lot of emphasis on a back door and that "someone", or
"some entity" "somehow" convinced the majority they were ill-prepared,
either financially or personnel wise, to continue..
>
> Fast-forward to now and what do we have? We have an organization with
> NASCAR ties and one that happens to own Daytona acquiring AMA Pro
> Racing. First order of business -- class restructuring that assures
> that the Daytona round will continue on as a "premier" event of the
> season. But what else could they do with this? We have lots of
> tracks that many think are inadequate or barely adequate for the big
> bikes and would require lots money to be better off in terms of
> safety. But that money would almost exclusively benefit bikes. It
> wouldn't have as big an impact on car road racing at those places, so
> it makes for a rather limited ROI. At that same time, we already have
> a someone proven formula of racing on road courses squeezed into
> NASCAR facilities (Daytona and California Speedway are already on the
> calendar).
The track safety thing is more than likely a red herring/strawman, not
so much because there are very real safety concerns, but because there
will be little reason to ever move away from the bowls once they're in
play..
>
> Suppose the grand vision is to bring bikes to the masses, similar to
> supercross' inception, by scaling down on the big bikes and
> concentrating on racing middleweights on ovals. It might even become
> a NASCAR pre-show (shudder).
Please never repeat that again, ever!!
> What if what we're seeing now is an
> eventual manifestation of the earlier ideas I heard that rumor about?
I think there's very little chance it was anything other..
> If so, it would really really bad. There would be no incentive
> whatsoever to maintain any compatibility with international racing.
> It would explain the rush to uproot all the current sponsorship and
> rule structure.
What I see is a Mega-huge racing promotor that evidently invested time
and a few bucks to acquire most all of M/C racing and knowing how those
guys don't take a dump without a plan I doubt they're too worried about
international compatibility, or, for that matter, much (including past
fans, or OEM's) that may get in their way to bring M/C racing more
mainstream according to *their business model* and we're pretty much
just on the sidelines. What I do find hard to understand is all the
name calling BS about DMG, after all, they're only doing what they do
and had the old Proracing business model been a little more effective,
or half-way solvent we wouldn't even be talking about them today. So,
regardless of your feelings about the new direction, if blame needs to
be made it's hard not to lay it squarely on past Proracing regimes,
don't you think?
Be that as it may, to me the hook on all this is not so much the
classes, current fans, tires, venues or even the OEM's, it's if DMG can
deliver the outside sponsorship and given our current economic climate
that very much remains to be seen...
T3 wrote:
>
> What I see is a Mega-huge racing promotor that evidently invested time
> and a few bucks to acquire most all of M/C racing and knowing how those
> guys don't take a dump without a plan I doubt they're too worried about
> international compatibility, or, for that matter, much (including past
> fans, or OEM's) that may get in their way to bring M/C racing more
> mainstream according to *their business model* and we're pretty much
> just on the sidelines. What I do find hard to understand is all the name
> calling BS about DMG, after all, they're only doing what they do and had
> the old Proracing business model been a little more effective, or
> half-way solvent we wouldn't even be talking about them today. So,
> regardless of your feelings about the new direction, if blame needs to
> be made it's hard not to lay it squarely on past Proracing regimes,
> don't you think?
>
Wow - you blame the old crew for the crap the new crew is pulling?
way to have your cake and eat it too.
> Be that as it may, to me the hook on all this is not so much the
> classes, current fans, tires, venues or even the OEM's, it's if DMG can
> deliver the outside sponsorship and given our current economic climate
> that very much remains to be seen...
Well - enjoy your crapfest. by your analysis who who cares if everything
I enjoy about MC racing is gone and the series sucks, as long as the rich
guys make some more money.....
Bruce
>
> What I see is a Mega-huge racing promotor that evidently invested time
> and a few bucks to acquire most all of M/C racing and knowing how those
> guys don't take a dump without a plan I doubt they're too worried about
> international compatibility, or, for that matter, much (including past
> fans, or OEM's) that may get in their way to bring M/C racing more
> mainstream according to *their business model* and we're pretty much
> just on the sidelines. What I do find hard to understand is all the name
> calling BS about DMG, after all, they're only doing what they do and had
> the old Proracing business model been a little more effective, or
> half-way solvent we wouldn't even be talking about them today. So,
> regardless of your feelings about the new direction, if blame needs to
> be made it's hard not to lay it squarely on past Proracing regimes,
> don't you think?
>
Wow - you blame the old crew for the crap the new crew is pulling?
way to have your cake and eat it too.
> Be that as it may, to me the hook on all this is not so much the
> classes, current fans, tires, venues or even the OEM's, it's if DMG can
> deliver the outside sponsorship and given our current economic climate
> that very much remains to be seen...
Well - enjoy your crapfest. by your analysis who who cares if everything
I enjoy about MC racing is gone and the series sucks, as long as the rich
guys make some more money.....
Bruce
On May 14, 10:46 pm, Bruce Hartweg <bruce-n...@hartweg.us> wrote:
> T3 wrote:
>
> > What I see is a Mega-huge racing promotor that evidently invested time
> > and a few bucks to acquire most all of M/C racing and knowing how those
> > guys don't take a dump without a plan I doubt they're too worried about
> > international compatibility, or, for that matter, much (including past
> > fans, or OEM's) that may get in their way to bring M/C racing more
> > mainstream according to *their business model* and we're pretty much
> > just on the sidelines. What I do find hard to understand is all the name
> > calling BS about DMG, after all, they're only doing what they do and had
> > the old Proracing business model been a little more effective, or
> > half-way solvent we wouldn't even be talking about them today. So,
> > regardless of your feelings about the new direction, if blame needs to
> > be made it's hard not to lay it squarely on past Proracing regimes,
> > don't you think?
>
> Wow - you blame the old crew for the crap the new crew is pulling?
> way to have your cake and eat it too.
>
> > Be that as it may, to me the hook on all this is not so much the
> > classes, current fans, tires, venues or even the OEM's, it's if DMG can
> > deliver the outside sponsorship and given our current economic climate
> > that very much remains to be seen...
>
> Well - enjoy your crapfest. by your analysis who who cares if everything
> I enjoy about MC racing is gone and the series sucks, as long as the rich
> guys make some more money.....
>
> Bruce
As a club racer, I could take it or leave it, honestly. If DMG
destroys Pro Racing by either running into the ground, or by turning
it into some bizarre show that has little to do with what I like about
it now, there will still be numerous organizations around the country
-- some national, some regional -- putting on club events. You can
participate in those events, you can watch them, but either way, I
guarantee you it'll be fun and you'll see some serious talent. I'm
not worried. If Pro Racing loses its relevancy for motorcycle road
racing, you just watch, WERA, CCS, or the like will step in in a
heartbeat.
> T3 wrote:
>
> > What I see is a Mega-huge racing promotor that evidently invested time
> > and a few bucks to acquire most all of M/C racing and knowing how those
> > guys don't take a dump without a plan I doubt they're too worried about
> > international compatibility, or, for that matter, much (including past
> > fans, or OEM's) that may get in their way to bring M/C racing more
> > mainstream according to *their business model* and we're pretty much
> > just on the sidelines. What I do find hard to understand is all the name
> > calling BS about DMG, after all, they're only doing what they do and had
> > the old Proracing business model been a little more effective, or
> > half-way solvent we wouldn't even be talking about them today. So,
> > regardless of your feelings about the new direction, if blame needs to
> > be made it's hard not to lay it squarely on past Proracing regimes,
> > don't you think?
>
> Wow - you blame the old crew for the crap the new crew is pulling?
> way to have your cake and eat it too.
>
> > Be that as it may, to me the hook on all this is not so much the
> > classes, current fans, tires, venues or even the OEM's, it's if DMG can
> > deliver the outside sponsorship and given our current economic climate
> > that very much remains to be seen...
>
> Well - enjoy your crapfest. by your analysis who who cares if everything
> I enjoy about MC racing is gone and the series sucks, as long as the rich
> guys make some more money.....
>
> Bruce
As a club racer, I could take it or leave it, honestly. If DMG
destroys Pro Racing by either running into the ground, or by turning
it into some bizarre show that has little to do with what I like about
it now, there will still be numerous organizations around the country
-- some national, some regional -- putting on club events. You can
participate in those events, you can watch them, but either way, I
guarantee you it'll be fun and you'll see some serious talent. I'm
not worried. If Pro Racing loses its relevancy for motorcycle road
racing, you just watch, WERA, CCS, or the like will step in in a
heartbeat.
Alexey wrote:
> On May 14, 10:46 pm, Bruce Hartweg <bruce-n...@hartweg.us> wrote:
>> T3 wrote:
>>
>>> What I see is a Mega-huge racing promotor that evidently invested time
>>> and a few bucks to acquire most all of M/C racing and knowing how those
>>> guys don't take a dump without a plan I doubt they're too worried about
>>> international compatibility, or, for that matter, much (including past
>>> fans, or OEM's) that may get in their way to bring M/C racing more
>>> mainstream according to *their business model* and we're pretty much
>>> just on the sidelines. What I do find hard to understand is all the name
>>> calling BS about DMG, after all, they're only doing what they do and had
>>> the old Proracing business model been a little more effective, or
>>> half-way solvent we wouldn't even be talking about them today. So,
>>> regardless of your feelings about the new direction, if blame needs to
>>> be made it's hard not to lay it squarely on past Proracing regimes,
>>> don't you think?
>> Wow - you blame the old crew for the crap the new crew is pulling?
>> way to have your cake and eat it too.
>>
>>> Be that as it may, to me the hook on all this is not so much the
>>> classes, current fans, tires, venues or even the OEM's, it's if DMG can
>>> deliver the outside sponsorship and given our current economic climate
>>> that very much remains to be seen...
>> Well - enjoy your crapfest. by your analysis who who cares if everything
>> I enjoy about MC racing is gone and the series sucks, as long as the rich
>> guys make some more money.....
>>
>> Bruce
>
> As a club racer, I could take it or leave it, honestly. If DMG
> destroys Pro Racing by either running into the ground, or by turning
> it into some bizarre show that has little to do with what I like about
> it now, there will still be numerous organizations around the country
> -- some national, some regional -- putting on club events. You can
> participate in those events, you can watch them, but either way, I
> guarantee you it'll be fun and you'll see some serious talent. I'm
> not worried. If Pro Racing loses its relevancy for motorcycle road
> racing, you just watch, WERA, CCS, or the like will step in in a
> heartbeat.
OK, What channel and times are the WERA & CCS races braodcast?
Bruce
> On May 14, 10:46 pm, Bruce Hartweg <bruce-n...@hartweg.us> wrote:
>> T3 wrote:
>>
>>> What I see is a Mega-huge racing promotor that evidently invested time
>>> and a few bucks to acquire most all of M/C racing and knowing how those
>>> guys don't take a dump without a plan I doubt they're too worried about
>>> international compatibility, or, for that matter, much (including past
>>> fans, or OEM's) that may get in their way to bring M/C racing more
>>> mainstream according to *their business model* and we're pretty much
>>> just on the sidelines. What I do find hard to understand is all the name
>>> calling BS about DMG, after all, they're only doing what they do and had
>>> the old Proracing business model been a little more effective, or
>>> half-way solvent we wouldn't even be talking about them today. So,
>>> regardless of your feelings about the new direction, if blame needs to
>>> be made it's hard not to lay it squarely on past Proracing regimes,
>>> don't you think?
>> Wow - you blame the old crew for the crap the new crew is pulling?
>> way to have your cake and eat it too.
>>
>>> Be that as it may, to me the hook on all this is not so much the
>>> classes, current fans, tires, venues or even the OEM's, it's if DMG can
>>> deliver the outside sponsorship and given our current economic climate
>>> that very much remains to be seen...
>> Well - enjoy your crapfest. by your analysis who who cares if everything
>> I enjoy about MC racing is gone and the series sucks, as long as the rich
>> guys make some more money.....
>>
>> Bruce
>
> As a club racer, I could take it or leave it, honestly. If DMG
> destroys Pro Racing by either running into the ground, or by turning
> it into some bizarre show that has little to do with what I like about
> it now, there will still be numerous organizations around the country
> -- some national, some regional -- putting on club events. You can
> participate in those events, you can watch them, but either way, I
> guarantee you it'll be fun and you'll see some serious talent. I'm
> not worried. If Pro Racing loses its relevancy for motorcycle road
> racing, you just watch, WERA, CCS, or the like will step in in a
> heartbeat.
OK, What channel and times are the WERA & CCS races braodcast?
Bruce
On May 15, 10:59 am, Bruce Hartweg <bruce-n...@hartweg.us> wrote:
> Alexey wrote:
> > On May 14, 10:46 pm, Bruce Hartweg <bruce-n...@hartweg.us> wrote:
> >> T3 wrote:
>
> >>> What I see is a Mega-huge racing promotor that evidently invested time
> >>> and a few bucks to acquire most all of M/C racing and knowing how those
> >>> guys don't take a dump without a plan I doubt they're too worried about
> >>> international compatibility, or, for that matter, much (including past
> >>> fans, or OEM's) that may get in their way to bring M/C racing more
> >>> mainstream according to *their business model* and we're pretty much
> >>> just on the sidelines. What I do find hard to understand is all the name
> >>> calling BS about DMG, after all, they're only doing what they do and had
> >>> the old Proracing business model been a little more effective, or
> >>> half-way solvent we wouldn't even be talking about them today. So,
> >>> regardless of your feelings about the new direction, if blame needs to
> >>> be made it's hard not to lay it squarely on past Proracing regimes,
> >>> don't you think?
> >> Wow - you blame the old crew for the crap the new crew is pulling?
> >> way to have your cake and eat it too.
>
> >>> Be that as it may, to me the hook on all this is not so much the
> >>> classes, current fans, tires, venues or even the OEM's, it's if DMG can
> >>> deliver the outside sponsorship and given our current economic climate
> >>> that very much remains to be seen...
> >> Well - enjoy your crapfest. by your analysis who who cares if everything
> >> I enjoy about MC racing is gone and the series sucks, as long as the rich
> >> guys make some more money.....
>
> >> Bruce
>
> > As a club racer, I could take it or leave it, honestly. If DMG
> > destroys Pro Racing by either running into the ground, or by turning
> > it into some bizarre show that has little to do with what I like about
> > it now, there will still be numerous organizations around the country
> > -- some national, some regional -- putting on club events. You can
> > participate in those events, you can watch them, but either way, I
> > guarantee you it'll be fun and you'll see some serious talent. I'm
> > not worried. If Pro Racing loses its relevancy for motorcycle road
> > racing, you just watch, WERA, CCS, or the like will step in in a
> > heartbeat.
>
> OK, What channel and times are the WERA & CCS races braodcast?
>
> Bruce
Channel: real world (requires getting out of the house, I know, I
know)
Times:
http://www.ccsracing.us/calendar/calendar.html
http://wera.com/schedule/?x=816
> Alexey wrote:
> > On May 14, 10:46 pm, Bruce Hartweg <bruce-n...@hartweg.us> wrote:
> >> T3 wrote:
>
> >>> What I see is a Mega-huge racing promotor that evidently invested time
> >>> and a few bucks to acquire most all of M/C racing and knowing how those
> >>> guys don't take a dump without a plan I doubt they're too worried about
> >>> international compatibility, or, for that matter, much (including past
> >>> fans, or OEM's) that may get in their way to bring M/C racing more
> >>> mainstream according to *their business model* and we're pretty much
> >>> just on the sidelines. What I do find hard to understand is all the name
> >>> calling BS about DMG, after all, they're only doing what they do and had
> >>> the old Proracing business model been a little more effective, or
> >>> half-way solvent we wouldn't even be talking about them today. So,
> >>> regardless of your feelings about the new direction, if blame needs to
> >>> be made it's hard not to lay it squarely on past Proracing regimes,
> >>> don't you think?
> >> Wow - you blame the old crew for the crap the new crew is pulling?
> >> way to have your cake and eat it too.
>
> >>> Be that as it may, to me the hook on all this is not so much the
> >>> classes, current fans, tires, venues or even the OEM's, it's if DMG can
> >>> deliver the outside sponsorship and given our current economic climate
> >>> that very much remains to be seen...
> >> Well - enjoy your crapfest. by your analysis who who cares if everything
> >> I enjoy about MC racing is gone and the series sucks, as long as the rich
> >> guys make some more money.....
>
> >> Bruce
>
> > As a club racer, I could take it or leave it, honestly. If DMG
> > destroys Pro Racing by either running into the ground, or by turning
> > it into some bizarre show that has little to do with what I like about
> > it now, there will still be numerous organizations around the country
> > -- some national, some regional -- putting on club events. You can
> > participate in those events, you can watch them, but either way, I
> > guarantee you it'll be fun and you'll see some serious talent. I'm
> > not worried. If Pro Racing loses its relevancy for motorcycle road
> > racing, you just watch, WERA, CCS, or the like will step in in a
> > heartbeat.
>
> OK, What channel and times are the WERA & CCS races braodcast?
>
> Bruce
Channel: real world (requires getting out of the house, I know, I
know)
Times:
http://www.ccsracing.us/calendar/calendar.html
http://wera.com/schedule/?x=816
Alexey wrote:
>> OK, What channel and times are the WERA & CCS races braodcast?
>>
>> Bruce
>
> Channel: real world (requires getting out of the house, I know, I
> know)
> Times:
> http://www.ccsracing.us/calendar/calendar.html
> http://wera.com/schedule/?x=816
I already have a real life - with plenty of things to fill it.
I can spare a few hours to watch races on the TV, I don't have
spare boatloads of free weekends and money to travel around the
country to see a race. If/When there are some nearby, I will go
(caught the BSB round a Mallory last year while traveling in the
UK on business) but at best that is only a couple of races a year.
So as a replacement for what I currently have - not so much.
Bruce
>> OK, What channel and times are the WERA & CCS races braodcast?
>>
>> Bruce
>
> Channel: real world (requires getting out of the house, I know, I
> know)
> Times:
> http://www.ccsracing.us/calendar/calendar.html
> http://wera.com/schedule/?x=816
I already have a real life - with plenty of things to fill it.
I can spare a few hours to watch races on the TV, I don't have
spare boatloads of free weekends and money to travel around the
country to see a race. If/When there are some nearby, I will go
(caught the BSB round a Mallory last year while traveling in the
UK on business) but at best that is only a couple of races a year.
So as a replacement for what I currently have - not so much.
Bruce
I had tried posting a response, but it didn't seem to go out. Here we
go again...
On May 15, 7:22 pm, Bruce Hartweg <bruce-n...@hartweg.us> wrote:
> Alexey wrote:
> >> OK, What channel and times are the WERA & CCS races braodcast?
>
> >> Bruce
>
> > Channel: real world (requires getting out of the house, I know, I
> > know)
> > Times:
> > http://www.ccsracing.us/calendar/calendar.html
> > http://wera.com/schedule/?x=816
>
> I already have a real life - with plenty of things to fill it.
> I can spare a few hours to watch races on the TV, I don't have
> spare boatloads of free weekends and money to travel around the
> country to see a race. If/When there are some nearby, I will go
> (caught the BSB round a Mallory last year while traveling in the
> UK on business) but at best that is only a couple of races a year.
>
> So as a replacement for what I currently have - not so much.
>
> Bruce
It's 2008. Even without the high demand for such content from casual
fans, you can watch practically every round of AFM from onboard,
numerous CCS and WERA videos, and so on. How about if top riders
organized a very cheap, but not free site, where they could post their
onboard video in an organized fashion. Do a cursory video search for
CCS, WERA, AHRMA, AFM, etc. "Professional commentators?" -- fuck 'em
all. Like I said, Pro Racing can go to hell if they think they can
deliver something people can't make happen themselves with modern
technology.
go again...
On May 15, 7:22 pm, Bruce Hartweg <bruce-n...@hartweg.us> wrote:
> Alexey wrote:
> >> OK, What channel and times are the WERA & CCS races braodcast?
>
> >> Bruce
>
> > Channel: real world (requires getting out of the house, I know, I
> > know)
> > Times:
> > http://www.ccsracing.us/calendar/calendar.html
> > http://wera.com/schedule/?x=816
>
> I already have a real life - with plenty of things to fill it.
> I can spare a few hours to watch races on the TV, I don't have
> spare boatloads of free weekends and money to travel around the
> country to see a race. If/When there are some nearby, I will go
> (caught the BSB round a Mallory last year while traveling in the
> UK on business) but at best that is only a couple of races a year.
>
> So as a replacement for what I currently have - not so much.
>
> Bruce
It's 2008. Even without the high demand for such content from casual
fans, you can watch practically every round of AFM from onboard,
numerous CCS and WERA videos, and so on. How about if top riders
organized a very cheap, but not free site, where they could post their
onboard video in an organized fashion. Do a cursory video search for
CCS, WERA, AHRMA, AFM, etc. "Professional commentators?" -- fuck 'em
all. Like I said, Pro Racing can go to hell if they think they can
deliver something people can't make happen themselves with modern
technology.
On 2008-05-14 22:46:12 -0400, Bruce Hartweg <bruce-news@hartweg.us> said:
> T3 wrote:
>
>>
>> What I see is a Mega-huge racing promotor that evidently invested time
>> and a few bucks to acquire most all of M/C racing and knowing how those
>> guys don't take a dump without a plan I doubt they're too worried about
>> international compatibility, or, for that matter, much (including past
>> fans, or OEM's) that may get in their way to bring M/C racing more
>> mainstream according to *their business model* and we're pretty much
>> just on the sidelines. What I do find hard to understand is all the
>> name calling BS about DMG, after all, they're only doing what they do
>> and had the old Proracing business model been a little more effective,
>> or half-way solvent we wouldn't even be talking about them today. So,
>> regardless of your feelings about the new direction, if blame needs to
>> be made it's hard not to lay it squarely on past Proracing regimes,
>> don't you think?
>>
>
> Wow - you blame the old crew for the crap the new crew is pulling?
> way to have your cake and eat it too.
First of all Bruce, I said *IF* blame needs to be made, but that aside,
how do you think we got where we are today?
>
>> Be that as it may, to me the hook on all this is not so much the
>> classes, current fans, tires, venues or even the OEM's, it's if DMG can
>> deliver the outside sponsorship and given our current economic climate
>> that very much remains to be seen...
>
> Well - enjoy your crapfest. by your analysis who who cares if everything
> I enjoy about MC racing is gone and the series sucks, as long as the rich
> guys make some more money.....
>
> Bruce
Rich guys making more money? Bruce, that very same line if turned
around a little is most likely what got us where we are today, the only
difference it was the OEM's using racing to make money..
My crapfest? I didn't and don't have a damn thing to do with this deal,
I only tried to point out that this could happen when I saw the way
things were headed, but just like your boi did then, you choose to
shoot the messenger instead of facing the reality of the situation.
What you and I like may very well be gone by this time next year, but
blaming DMG for it when they are only doing what they do is like
blaming our armed forces for the war and not holding the lying,
thieving bastards accountable that got us in to it to begin with! I
suppose you can fall for that particular brand of revisionist bullshit
if you need to, but I'll pass. The old Proracing business model failed
and we can argue the who, what and how if you'd like, but it doesn't
change the fact that it did and why you, or anyone for that matter,
would expect some new outfit to continue in that failure is beyond me...
> T3 wrote:
>
>>
>> What I see is a Mega-huge racing promotor that evidently invested time
>> and a few bucks to acquire most all of M/C racing and knowing how those
>> guys don't take a dump without a plan I doubt they're too worried about
>> international compatibility, or, for that matter, much (including past
>> fans, or OEM's) that may get in their way to bring M/C racing more
>> mainstream according to *their business model* and we're pretty much
>> just on the sidelines. What I do find hard to understand is all the
>> name calling BS about DMG, after all, they're only doing what they do
>> and had the old Proracing business model been a little more effective,
>> or half-way solvent we wouldn't even be talking about them today. So,
>> regardless of your feelings about the new direction, if blame needs to
>> be made it's hard not to lay it squarely on past Proracing regimes,
>> don't you think?
>>
>
> Wow - you blame the old crew for the crap the new crew is pulling?
> way to have your cake and eat it too.
First of all Bruce, I said *IF* blame needs to be made, but that aside,
how do you think we got where we are today?
>
>> Be that as it may, to me the hook on all this is not so much the
>> classes, current fans, tires, venues or even the OEM's, it's if DMG can
>> deliver the outside sponsorship and given our current economic climate
>> that very much remains to be seen...
>
> Well - enjoy your crapfest. by your analysis who who cares if everything
> I enjoy about MC racing is gone and the series sucks, as long as the rich
> guys make some more money.....
>
> Bruce
Rich guys making more money? Bruce, that very same line if turned
around a little is most likely what got us where we are today, the only
difference it was the OEM's using racing to make money..
My crapfest? I didn't and don't have a damn thing to do with this deal,
I only tried to point out that this could happen when I saw the way
things were headed, but just like your boi did then, you choose to
shoot the messenger instead of facing the reality of the situation.
What you and I like may very well be gone by this time next year, but
blaming DMG for it when they are only doing what they do is like
blaming our armed forces for the war and not holding the lying,
thieving bastards accountable that got us in to it to begin with! I
suppose you can fall for that particular brand of revisionist bullshit
if you need to, but I'll pass. The old Proracing business model failed
and we can argue the who, what and how if you'd like, but it doesn't
change the fact that it did and why you, or anyone for that matter,
would expect some new outfit to continue in that failure is beyond me...
T3 wrote:
> On 2008-05-14 22:46:12 -0400, Bruce Hartweg <bruce-news@hartweg.us> said:
>> Wow - you blame the old crew for the crap the new crew is pulling?
>> way to have your cake and eat it too.
>
> First of all Bruce, I said *IF* blame needs to be made, but that aside,
> how do you think we got where we are today?
>
>>
>>> Be that as it may, to me the hook on all this is not so much the
>>> classes, current fans, tires, venues or even the OEM's, it's if DMG
>>> can deliver the outside sponsorship and given our current economic
>>> climate that very much remains to be seen...
>>
>> Well - enjoy your crapfest. by your analysis who who cares if everything
>> I enjoy about MC racing is gone and the series sucks, as long as the rich
>> guys make some more money.....
>>
>> Bruce
>
> Rich guys making more money? Bruce, that very same line if turned around
> a little is most likely what got us where we are today, the only
> difference it was the OEM's using racing to make money..
>
> My crapfest? I didn't and don't have a damn thing to do with this deal,
> I only tried to point out that this could happen when I saw the way
> things were headed, but just like your boi did then, you choose to shoot
> the messenger instead of facing the reality of the situation. What you
> and I like may very well be gone by this time next year, but blaming DMG
> for it when they are only doing what they do is like blaming our armed
> forces for the war and not holding the lying, thieving bastards
> accountable that got us in to it to begin with! I suppose you can fall
> for that particular brand of revisionist bullshit if you need to, but
> I'll pass. The old Proracing business model failed and we can argue the
> who, what and how if you'd like, but it doesn't change the fact that it
> did and why you, or anyone for that matter, would expect some new outfit
> to continue in that failure is beyond me...
>
OK - it's no real use trying to discuss this with you.
Later,
Bruce
> On 2008-05-14 22:46:12 -0400, Bruce Hartweg <bruce-news@hartweg.us> said:
>> Wow - you blame the old crew for the crap the new crew is pulling?
>> way to have your cake and eat it too.
>
> First of all Bruce, I said *IF* blame needs to be made, but that aside,
> how do you think we got where we are today?
>
>>
>>> Be that as it may, to me the hook on all this is not so much the
>>> classes, current fans, tires, venues or even the OEM's, it's if DMG
>>> can deliver the outside sponsorship and given our current economic
>>> climate that very much remains to be seen...
>>
>> Well - enjoy your crapfest. by your analysis who who cares if everything
>> I enjoy about MC racing is gone and the series sucks, as long as the rich
>> guys make some more money.....
>>
>> Bruce
>
> Rich guys making more money? Bruce, that very same line if turned around
> a little is most likely what got us where we are today, the only
> difference it was the OEM's using racing to make money..
>
> My crapfest? I didn't and don't have a damn thing to do with this deal,
> I only tried to point out that this could happen when I saw the way
> things were headed, but just like your boi did then, you choose to shoot
> the messenger instead of facing the reality of the situation. What you
> and I like may very well be gone by this time next year, but blaming DMG
> for it when they are only doing what they do is like blaming our armed
> forces for the war and not holding the lying, thieving bastards
> accountable that got us in to it to begin with! I suppose you can fall
> for that particular brand of revisionist bullshit if you need to, but
> I'll pass. The old Proracing business model failed and we can argue the
> who, what and how if you'd like, but it doesn't change the fact that it
> did and why you, or anyone for that matter, would expect some new outfit
> to continue in that failure is beyond me...
>
OK - it's no real use trying to discuss this with you.
Later,
Bruce
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