Voices speak..

Voices speak..

http :// www .cyclenews,com /testride/latestissue.html

Page 4, interesting, though not surprising..

Stone's look at things, particularly the have's and have not part
sounded, well, kinda' familiar, hmmm..

50k total at Miller? I dunno for sure, but that's gotta' to be close
break even, doncha' think?

Hmm, doesn't bode well for a long term WSB deal..

Then there's page 6 where rain at M/O is discussed.

DMG do yourself a favor, just say *NO* to rain racing and be done with it..

And on the very next page a Yosh sayonara?

Oh well, c'ya.....

Re: Voices speak..

T3 wrote:
> http :// www .cyclenews,com /testride/latestissue.html
>
> Page 4, interesting, though not surprising..
>
> Stone's look at things, particularly the have's and have not part
> sounded, well, kinda' familiar, hmmm..
>

ya maean whiney? yeah that's familiar.


> And on the very next page a Yosh sayonara?
>
> Oh well, c'ya.....
>

yeah the best team, and the one that supports the most satellite team
and you're runnin' em out - what a great plan.

That's the best way for parity - everyone can't be good - so make
everyone suck. Oh well. WSB seems pretty good these days...

Bruce

Re: Voices speak..

Bruce Hartweg wrote:
> D-T3roll wrote:
> > http :// www .cyclenews,com /testride/latestissue.html

> > Stone's look at things, particularly the have's and have not part
> > sounded, well,  kinda' familiar,  hmmm..
>
> ya maean whiney? yeah that's familiar.

Definitely, couldn't even tell you how many privateers and club guys
I've heard daydreaming about how great they'd be with factory tackle.
Stone qualified nine full seconds off pole at Elkhart, and even in a
wet race, "the great equalizer", he finished about a minute behind the
winner. And of course his comment about Mladin and tires just shows he
doesn't have a clue about what Mat and other top riders have been
saying - anyone WITH A CHANCE OF WINNING has access to the same tires.
Stone probably couldn't win if he was the only rider on the grid, and
certainly not if DMG succeeds with their grand experiment and racing
becomes very popular and profitable for the participants.

> > And on the very next page a Yosh sayonara?
>
> > Oh well, c'ya.....
>
> yeah the best team, and the one that supports the most satellite team
> and you're runnin' em out - what a great plan.
>
> That's the best way for parity - everyone can't be good - so make
> everyone sucks.

It's called the lowest common denominator, and DMG seems to what that
on both sides of the fences...

Re: Voices speak..

On 2008-06-11 19:26:37 -0400, Bruce Hartweg <bruce-news@hartweg.us> said:

> T3 wrote:
>> http :// www .cyclenews,com /testride/latestissue.html
>>
>> Page 4, interesting, though not surprising..
>>
>> Stone's look at things, particularly the have's and have not part
>> sounded, well, kinda' familiar, hmmm..
>>
>
> ya maean whiney? yeah that's familiar.

Heheh, yeah, he was talkin' the talk all right, trouble is, walk time
is less than a year away..

>
>
>> And on the very next page a Yosh sayonara?
>>
>> Oh well, c'ya.....
>>
>
> yeah the best team, and the one that supports the most satellite team
> and you're runnin' em out - what a great plan.
>
> That's the best way for parity - everyone can't be good - so make
> everyone suck. Oh well. WSB seems pretty good these days...

Note, a Yosh sayonara, but you're prolly right, time they get around to
closing shop 'Zuki will prolly be a memory.. (or not, we'll see..)

Re: Voices speak..

T3he ConfederaT3e in King Roger's CourT3 wrote:
> http :// www .cyclenews,com /testride/latestissue.html

> 50k total at Miller? I dunno for sure, but that's gotta' to be close
> break even, doncha' think?
>
> Hmm, doesn't bode well for a long term WSB deal..

"The 32,000 fans who attended the three days of activities officially
known as the Toyota U.S. World Superbike Championship - the first World
Superbike round to hit these shores in four years - got to enjoy nearly
perfect weather while witnessing one-and-a-half incredible battles for
victory in the same class in the same day."

That's from the September 1995 edition of RRWorld, talking about the
first WSB round at Laguna. By 2000-03 they were pulling in 90-100k for
those races. Of course in those competitive tire days the racing was
much closer and better than now with control tires...

As far as the buttplug writing that letter goes, I was at the last two
AMA rounds and I can guarantee you the crowd was larger at Miller. I
guessed the crowd was about the same as at Laguna a decade ago, and at
51k that sounds in the ballpark. Of course he's from the east coast, so
probably has a basic dust problem and really wishes the round was back
at Barber or Elkhart instead. Or maybe Pocono if he's like some people
we know...

> Then there's page 6 where rain at M/O is discussed.
>
> DMG do yourself a favor, just say *NO* to rain racing and be done with it..

I thought you said it's all about television? If it's all about TV, then
you have to go off on schedule, nothing worse than trying to fill an
hour or whatever with nothing.

http :// www .superbikeplanet,com /2008/Jun/080611a.htm
http :// www .superbikeplanet,com /2008/Jun/080611h9a.htm

What we have here is the first shoe drop on the safety issue and DMG,
and Mladin's comment on "dictatorship" is right on point - prepare for a
serious rollback on rider safety in this series. And if the factory
riders boycott? DMG doesn't care, they have already gone to war with the
factories and are looking to restart this series based on hungry,
pliable privateers. Sit out Mid-Ohio, and they'll probably suspend 'em
at VIR as well. By the end of the year your boy Stonie may end up SSt
champion.

What I find amazingly chickenshit is the "don't know anything about it"
by DMG's Fraser. Of course King Rog may have done this on his own and
not told anyone, but these guys are making an art out of studied
ignorance and lying...

> And on the very next page a Yosh sayonara?
>
> Oh well, c'ya.....

Another example of your life philosophy - you don't care how bad the
shit stinks as long as it's yours...

Re: Voices speak..

On 2008-06-12 00:44:00 -0400, Mark N <menusbaum@NYETSPAMearthlink,net > said:

> T3he ConfederaT3e in King Roger's CourT3 wrote:
>> http :// www .cyclenews,com /testride/latestissue.html
>
>> 50k total at Miller? I dunno for sure, but that's gotta' to be close
>> break even, doncha' think?
>>
>> Hmm, doesn't bode well for a long term WSB deal..
>
> "The 32,000 fans who attended the three days of activities officially
> known as the Toyota U.S. World Superbike Championship - the first World
> Superbike round to hit these shores in four years - got to enjoy nearly
> perfect weather while witnessing one-and-a-half incredible battles for
> victory in the same class in the same day."
>
> That's from the September 1995 edition of RRWorld, talking about the
> first WSB round at Laguna. By 2000-03 they were pulling in 90-100k for
> those races. Of course in those competitive tire days the racing was
> much closer and better than now with control tires...
>
> As far as the buttplug writing that letter goes, I was at the last two
> AMA rounds and I can guarantee you the crowd was larger at Miller. I
> guessed the crowd was about the same as at Laguna a decade ago, and at
> 51k that sounds in the ballpark. Of course he's from the east coast, so
> probably has a basic dust problem and really wishes the round was back
> at Barber or Elkhart instead. Or maybe Pocono if he's like some people
> we know..

Dust aside, (kachoo!) and with Miller being spread out in the desert I
think it would be very difficult to eyeball, or estimate the
attendance..
>
>> Then there's page 6 where rain at M/O is discussed.
>>
>> DMG do yourself a favor, just say *NO* to rain racing and be done with it..
>
> I thought you said it's all about television? If it's all about TV,
> then you have to go off on schedule, nothing worse than trying to fill
> an hour or whatever with nothing.

It is about TV, but *I* still think rain racing suxs, especially so if
our tracks are too unsafe for SB's, that is, if they're unsafe for SB's
in the dry, what makes them safe for Litre's and DSB's when they're wet?
Could be a huge stumble here, it'll be interesting to see if this turns
into a cause celeb, or some rallying point for the haves. My guess,
they'll change their minds, whoever they are...
>
> http :// www .superbikeplanet,com /2008/Jun/080611a.htm
> http :// www .superbikeplanet,com /2008/Jun/080611h9a.htm
>
> What we have here is the first shoe drop on the safety issue and DMG,
> and Mladin's comment on "dictatorship" is right on point - prepare for
> a serious rollback on rider safety in this series. And if the factory
> riders boycott? DMG doesn't care, they have already gone to war with
> the factories and are looking to restart this series based on hungry,
> pliable privateers. Sit out Mid-Ohio, and they'll probably suspend 'em
> at VIR as well. By the end of the year your boy Stonie may end up SSt
> champion.
>
> What I find amazingly chickenshit is the "don't know anything about it"
> by DMG's Fraser. Of course King Rog may have done this on his own and
> not told anyone, but these guys are making an art out of studied
> ignorance and lying...
>
>> And on the very next page a Yosh sayonara?
>>
>> Oh well, c'ya.....
>
> Another example of your life philosophy - you don't care how bad the
> shit stinks as long as it's yours...

2 reasons, shit sucks as we all know, but it's sometimes a little
better when it yours and of course, mine doesn't stink! ;-)

Yosh has had their say, and as we know, Mat too, now either leave, or
stay, but whatever you do, do it quietly and move on... In other words,
quit bitchin' about the shit sandwich, you caused it as much as anyone
else, now take a big bite...

Re: Voices speak..

T3 wrote:

> Yosh has had their say, and as we know, Mat too, now either leave, or
> stay, but whatever you do, do it quietly and move on... In other words,
> quit bitchin' about the shit sandwich, you caused it as much as anyone
> else, now take a big bite...
>
>
they caused it!?!?!?!

god what a friggin' commie comment if there ever was one.

How Dare they be good at there job. Gotta punish success ya' know.

geez why don't you & your boys take over basketball and make all those
guys ove 6' play ion their knees to be "fair" - and the olympics too,
anyone who can run too fast should have to have a ball&chain to drag
around.

Bruce

Re: Voices speak..

On 2008-06-12 11:31:50 -0400, Bruce Hartweg <bruce-news@hartweg.us> said:

> T3 wrote:
>
>> Yosh has had their say, and as we know, Mat too, now either leave, or
>> stay, but whatever you do, do it quietly and move on... In other words,
>> quit bitchin' about the shit sandwich, you caused it as much as anyone
>> else, now take a big bite...
>>
>>
> they caused it!?!?!?!

In the sense they have completely dominated two classes, the namesake
and it's lookalike supporter, yes they are partially responsible for
Proracing's demise and the subsequent rise of DMG, just as responsible
as the other Jap OEM's that did not support their SB efforts in lieu of
SSP and FX. This has been my point since forever Bruce, and what we
have now, or rather, what we're going to have next year is a very
direct result of the OEM's letting Proracing down, or at the very
least, not living up to their original agreement to focus on the
premiere class and that (among other things) coupled with Proracing's
inability, or will to force them to do so is how we got to where we are
now, that is, in the middle of a shitstorm takeover..

>
> god what a friggin' commie comment if there ever was one.

Hardly, but if the truth hurts, oh well..

>
> How Dare they be good at there job. Gotta punish success ya' know.

Oh, they've done one hell of a job, of that there's little doubt, but
against who? Remember, Yoshimura Suzuki IS the ONLY true factory effort
in AMA SB and it's been the only one for sometime now..

>
> geez why don't you & your boys take over basketball and make all those
> guys ove 6' play ion their knees to be "fair" - and the olympics too,
> anyone who can run too fast should have to have a ball&chain to drag
> around.

Puhleeze, what would those 8' monstas's do without roundball?

Re: Voices speak..

T3rue Lies wrote:
> Bruce Hartweg said:
> > T3he DayT3onafag wrote:
> >> Yosh has had their say, and as we know, Mat too, now either leave, or
> >> stay, but whatever you do, do it quietly and move on... In other words,
> >> quit bitchin' about the shit sandwich, you caused it as much as anyone
> >> else, now take a big bite...
>
> > they caused it!?!?!?!
>
> In the sense they have completely dominated two classes, the namesake
> and it's lookalike supporter, yes they are partially responsible for
> Proracing's demise and the subsequent rise of DMG, just as responsible
> as the other Jap OEM's that did not support their SB efforts in lieu of
> SSP and FX. This has been my point since forever Bruce, and what we
> have now, or rather, what we're going to have next year is a very
> direct result of the OEM's letting Proracing down, or at the very
> least, not living up to their original agreement to focus on the
> premiere class and that (among other things) coupled with Proracing's
> inability, or will to force them to do so is how we got to where we are
> now, that is, in the middle of a shitstorm takeover..

What a load of crap. The complaint on the AMA was that the factories
should be forced to run in SB, that's where they belonged, and Suzuki
has done exactly that all along. If you recall, the AMA tried to keep
factory SBs and factory riders out of FX under their rules, and then
they did the same when SSt changed to 1000s, but Yamaha used that as
cover to drop the SB class. Then Kawasaki dropped the class as well,
complaining that the AMA had rules too unstable to be acceptable, and
I seem to recall you backed the fat pig on that one. Of course since
then you've repeatedly criticized the AMA for SB rule changes they
haven't made, playing both sides of the issue.

Now you've created this new fantasy argument, that the other
factories, who now are all in SB, haven't done enough in that class to
be competitive, that they are just waiving the flag, which is a
totally bizarre notion. And it runs totally contrary to another
notion that you repeatedly peddle, that the factories completely
control the AMA - if they did, why wouldn't Honda, Yamaha and Kawasaki
shape them to give them a chance?

And Suzuki dominates SSt? One can certainly be critical of Suzuki for
running Spies in the class last year and dominating, but Suzukis won
only 2 of 11 races in 2006 and Yamaha the championship. Yates won the
champiobnship in '05, but either Hacking (Yam) or Hayden (Kaw) might
have if they hadn't gotten hurt; halfway through the year there were
four riders right in the hunt and only Yates (in 2nd) was on a Suzuki.
This year it's a privateer's class, which means Suzukis totally
dominate the grid because they have the best base machine and perhaps
also because they may pay the best contingencies.

> > How Dare they be good at there job. Gotta punish success ya' know.
>
> Oh, they've done one hell of a job, of that there's little doubt, but
> against who? Remember, Yoshimura Suzuki IS the ONLY true factory effort
> in AMA SB and it's been the only one for sometime now..

So that Ducati effort with Hodgson wasn't a factory effort? Riiiight.
And from what I see the Kawi team is as factory as that factory gets
these days, and with Honda and Yanaha working with the top WSB teams
that's about as good as those OEMs are doing as well. It's not
Suzuki's fault that the other OEMs in Japan have been more focused on
MotoGP than SB. But you can't blame the American arms of those
factories for not making the effort today. We might be seeing the same
thing in WSB (which we pretty much did see in 2005) if Alstare had the
same quality of riders as Yosh does.

Of course you've used the Suzuki club to beat on the series ever since
Jordan went public with that "unobtainium" bit last summer. Any tool
you can find in pursuit of your agenda, eh?

Re: Voices speak..

On 2008-06-12 15:05:57 -0400, Mark N <menusbaum@earthlink,net > said:

> What a load of crap. The complaint on the AMA was that the factories
> should be forced to run in SB, that's where they belonged, and Suzuki
> has done exactly that all along.


Agreed, well, not the crap load part anyway..

> If you recall, the AMA tried to keep
> factory SBs and factory riders out of FX under their rules, and then
> they did the same when SSt changed to 1000s, but Yamaha used that as
> cover to drop the SB class. Then Kawasaki dropped the class as well,
> complaining that the AMA had rules too unstable to be acceptable, and
> I seem to recall you backed the fat pig on that one. Of course since
> then you've repeatedly criticized the AMA for SB rule changes they
> haven't made, playing both sides of the issue.

Ok, so they backed away from the original deal, one where they promised
to focus on, what was it's name again? Oh yeah, AMA Superbike.. (who
knew?)

>
> Now you've created this new fantasy argument, that the other
> factories, who now are all in SB, haven't done enough in that class to
> be competitive, that they are just waiving the flag, which is a
> totally bizarre notion. And it runs totally contrary to another
> notion that you repeatedly peddle, that the factories completely
> control the AMA - if they did, why wouldn't Honda, Yamaha and Kawasaki
> shape them to give them a chance?

What other factories? Honda US isn't anymore a factory than Yam US, or
for that matter Kaw, but Yosh Suzuki damn sure is..

>
> And Suzuki dominates SSt? One can certainly be critical of Suzuki for
> running Spies in the class last year and dominating, but Suzukis won
> only 2 of 11 races in 2006 and Yamaha the championship. Yates won the
> champiobnship in '05, but either Hacking (Yam) or Hayden (Kaw) might
> have if they hadn't gotten hurt; halfway through the year there were
> four riders right in the hunt and only Yates (in 2nd) was on a Suzuki.
> This year it's a privateer's class, which means Suzukis totally
> dominate the grid because they have the best base machine and perhaps
> also because they may pay the best contingencies.

Something like 22, of the listed 24 starters in SStock are Gixxrz and
if that's not dominating you need to 'splain to me exactly what is..

>
>>> How Dare they be good at there job. Gotta punish success ya' know.
>>
>> Oh, they've done one hell of a job, of that there's little doubt, but
>> against who? Remember, Yoshimura Suzuki IS the ONLY true factory effort
>> in AMA SB and it's been the only one for sometime now..
>
> So that Ducati effort with Hodgson wasn't a factory effort? Riiiight.

A half-assed one at best..

> And from what I see the Kawi team is as factory as that factory gets
> these days, and with Honda and Yanaha working with the top WSB teams
> that's about as good as those OEMs are doing as well.

Again, compared to the 'Zuki's they're about as close as the lap times
show, that is, not very..

> It's not
> Suzuki's fault that the other OEMs in Japan have been more focused on
> MotoGP than SB.

I never said it was, I said they're as much responsible as anyone else
for DMG's rise and Proracing's demise. Look, it's like this, had most
things been just half-way hunky-dory Proracing would have thrived, or
at the very least been a little more financially viable, but as it
turned out they ended up with the short end of the "get 'um all in SB
stick," and DMG came along to do their version of clean up the mess.
I'm prolly not gonna like it, and when I tried to warn you guys this
could happen all I got was a bunch of grief because all you choose to
hear was AMA bashing, and while I admit to being vocal on some of their
race day decision's, in reality it was more of a caveat than anything
else. For Christ's sake Nusbaum, this is America and we have a long and
storied history of bastardizing things, if somebody thinks they can
make some, or more money on something, oh well. I mean c'mon, the OEM's
had a plan to make money in racing, 'Zuki's was with the big Gixxr,
Honda took a cheaper approach with FX, and Yam and Kaw just bailed
instead of trying, but in doing so they *all* kinda' left Proracing to
twist in the wind and BOOM!! DMG shows up with a pocket full of cash,
as well as a *new* way of doing business. It's a just bigass shark
dining on a crippled fish, and really nothing more, sure, it suks, but
whatcha' gonna' do?


> But you can't blame the American arms of those
> factories for not making the effort today.

This is where Proracing should have drawn the line and did not, or
could not. Whether through inability, desire, will, lack of vision,
ineptness, malfeasance, or whatever you want, or need to call it they
let the OEM's dictate where they raced and ultimately that was the
death knell..

> We might be seeing the same
> thing in WSB (which we pretty much did see in 2005) if Alstare had the
> same quality of riders as Yosh does.

Maybe, but I wouldn't bet money on it..

>
> Of course you've used the Suzuki club to beat on the series ever since
> Jordan went public with that "unobtainium" bit last summer. Any tool
> you can find in pursuit of your agenda, eh?

No agenda here, at least not past supper this evening anyway, 'sides,
you made my argument for me, thanks...

Re: Voices speak..

T3 wrote:
<snip various forms of evasive disingenuousness>

> I never said it was, I said they're as much responsible as anyone else
> for DMG's rise and Proracing's demise. Look, it's like this, had most
> things been just half-way hunky-dory Proracing would have thrived, or at
> the very least been a little more financially viable, but as it turned
> out they ended up with the short end of the "get 'um all in SB stick,"
> and DMG came along to do their version of clean up the mess. I'm prolly
> not gonna like it, and when I tried to warn you guys this could happen
> all I got was a bunch of grief because all you choose to hear was AMA
> bashing, and while I admit to being vocal on some of their race day
> decision's, in reality it was more of a caveat than anything else. For
> Christ's sake Nusbaum, this is America and we have a long and storied
> history of bastardizing things, if somebody thinks they can make some,
> or more money on something, oh well. I mean c'mon, the OEM's had a plan
> to make money in racing, 'Zuki's was with the big Gixxr, Honda took a
> cheaper approach with FX, and Yam and Kaw just bailed instead of trying,
> but in doing so they *all* kinda' left Proracing to twist in the wind
> and BOOM!! DMG shows up with a pocket full of cash, as well as a *new*
> way of doing business. It's a just bigass shark dining on a crippled
> fish, and really nothing more, sure, it suks, but whatcha' gonna' do?

Woah! "I'm prolly not gonna like it"? "It suks"?? Weren't you the "We
own it!" and "Not so bad, eh?" guy? Anyway, let's go back almost exactly
one year (6/16/07), when you posed this question and we had this little
exchange:

T3: For instance, just the other day I asked you to explain why you
thought Edmondson and France would be bad for MC racing.

MN: *Sigh* I really shouldn't bite on this subject, being that involves
the two things that bookend your love-hate spectrum regarding bike
racing, that being Daytona and the AMA. But, against my better judgment...

Anyway, my off-the-cuff problems with the notion of those guys taking
over are:
1) #2 has to try harder - NASCAR will always be #1 with them, so the
bike racing will always be 2nd-best, and would probably get that kind of
attention. It's kind of like the notion of Ecclestone running GP.

T3: Quit projecting, no one's said anything about how they'd run the
series, but I find it hard to fathom them running it worse than it is now.

MN: So it's not even possible to run things worse than the AMA does? You
can't even imagine ANYTHING they could do that would be worse? Haven't
paid much attention to WSB, have you?

T3: One thing for sure, they could bring the deep pocket sponsors onboard..

MN: How is that certain? They can bring in people who would spend money
without sufficient return just because it's the Frances? Why do I doubt
this?

2) Daytona is THE event - that's their mentality, and Daytona is a
problem for bike racing, it's just not adequately safe. Unless they
build a totally separate, state-of-the-art road course outside the bowl,
it's always going to be a compromise.

T3: The OEM's love Daytona Mark and you think Honda, Yam and Kaw don't
want to run there? You'd be thinkin' wrong, if so..

MN: They want the big bike season-opening promotional opportunity, no
doubt. But I seriously doubt any of them like facing building one-off FX
machines or missing the big race. And they probably cross their fingers
that they can once again avoid the really big crash or some rider's
death. Daytona simply isn't safe enough for big-time racing in the
contemporary world. IoM it ain't, but it's certainly listing in that
direction...

3) Their solution to that - run 600s instead of SBs. It's hard to really
evaluate how much damage that's done to the series, not running SBs in
the AMA's single-largest race of the year. To what extend did that
damage SB? Has it helped the standing of the 200? How frustrated are the
factories that the biggest promotional race of the year isn't in the
premier class? To what extent has that limited factory participation in SB?

T3: I agree and you know how much I hated to see the big boys dumbed
down, but FX's problems lie squarely in Proracing's lap. Sure, France
foresaw the tire prob, but factory participation is the AMA's folly..

MN: This is a Daytona problem, period. The problem was caused by the
racetrack and running bikes that can run (relatively) safely elsewhere
but apparently can't at Daytona. So the track insisted on 600s, they
didn't want to be responsible for killing someone, and the rest is
history. So instead of a SB 200 we get the shortest SB race of the year
as a warmup for the 200. And France didn't foresee the tire problem, it
had already blown up in his face.

At this point I have my doubts that SBs couldn't do the 200 today, but
no one wants to take that risk, despite the benefits. What does that say
about this track?

4) Will this disease spread? Their connection is to the guys owning
other bowls, so will we see expansion of races into more unsafe,
unchallenging bowls with crappy infield sections? That's backsliding, no
question. You say it's almost inevitable, because we won't see any more
new roadcourses, but what are the most recent additions to the AMA
series? VIR, Barber, Miller, which are very good roadcourses and quite
safe. I don't accept that this can't continue. And most of the tracks
dropped by the AMA in the last decade or so have been bowls - PPIR,
Loudon, Vegas, Phoenix, And remember that Charlotte event, complete with
two-by-fours nailed down to the banking?

T3: Whoa, how many new road courses? IIRC Miller is the first one built
in over what, 8, or 10 years? Yeah, there MAY be others in the pipeline
and I may win the lotto too! No doubt the concrete abominations suk ass,
but where are the alternatives? ('sides, "Merkans love to see 'um go
round and round..)

MN: Well, you'd be wrong about that. Those three tracks started doing
AMA races right after coming on line, and the first AMA race at VIR was
in 2001, the first at Barber in 2003, and then Miller last year. I don't
follow track construction that closely, but aren't there new road
courses in some state of development in Iowa and Texas? And there's been
talk of a Brainerd return. I'm not ready to give up on the road courses
at this point, 'cuz the bowls generally suck. It may come to that, but
let's not have someone in charge who actually wants that.

5) Manufacturered competitiveness - That's been that game in NASCAR,
land of restrictors, where a lead pack looks like a parking lot at
Wal-Mart. No, thanks, we see enough of that shit in WSB.

T3: Again, I don't see OEM's signing on to anything that resembles
NASCAR, the bike market is sooo very far removed from that..

MN: But wasn't one of the moments NASCAR looks back on with pride was
their break with the factories? Don't they think that's one of the
things that allowed them to grow to what they are today? If so, I can
see them trying that again. We see what that did to WSB, and we can see
how factory-dependent MotoGP is. Telling the factories to kiss off is a
one-way ticket to palookaville...

But, hey, don't take all this personal...

T3: I didn't, but I guess I'll have to give you some time to formulate a
rational response, because the above resembles either a dodge, or
windmill chase. Btw, sigh? Is that like a Champ shrug?


Well, I can see why you're backsliding now, trying deperately to do that
subtle little dance to the rational side of this matter. Looking at what
I said, my thought in retrospect is that I really had no idea exactly
how bad it could get. Btw, here is the latest public opinion on the
whole DMG mess:

http :// www .roadracingworld,com /news/article/?article=32852

I particularly like this one:

If the elevator door opened and Roger Edmondson stepped in, this is what
I would say to him:

The battle last year between Spies and Mladin was epic. Those two guys
rode so hard, and pushed each other so much, they almost killed
themselves in the process. That I would pay to see (and did, at Laguna
Seca, VIR and Road Atlanta; and this year I have already attended races
at Barber and Miller and plan to see the show at Road Atlanta). At all
of the race weekends I have attended, I have never once watched an
entire Formula Xtreme race, even though those races have produced some
of the closest racing in the series. Make no mistake, the attraction for
me (and for many other road racing fans, I am willing to bet) is and has
been watching a couple of the best riders in the world try to tame those
1000cc beasts and beat the other guy to the finish line.

And now, just when Hacking and Kawasaki and Hodgson and Honda are
starting to show some real progress, and it looks like we might be in
for a few great battles at the front, you want to neuter the series by
putting everyone on 600cc bikes and call the show "Daytona Superbike."
Give me a break. Do you have any idea how much easier it is to ride a
600cc machine than it is to ride one of those 1000cc monsters that the
big boys ride around on? Do you think the leaders of any other sport
would sit around brainstorming and come up with the following idea? "OK,
I've got it, let's change the rules to make our premier class 50%
easier! That will bring more fans out for our shows."

This is what you need to understand. I am happy to shell out good money
to see something special, like a three-year smack-down battle between
two of the best riders in the world on wickedly fast GSX-R1000s. Even if
on most days those two guys are 30 seconds ahead of the other riders on
the track. Thirty years from now racing fans still will be talking about
those battles. Don't unnecessarily water down your best product by
putting all of the riders on 600cc machines. It's not necessarily close
racing that I want to see. I want to see unique riders doing unique
things. Oh, yeah, and I don't want to see them get killed trying to ride
in the rain at Mid-Ohio.

Re: Voices speak..

On 2008-06-14 01:20:38 -0400, Mark N <menusbaum@NYETSPAMearthlink,net > said:
>
>> I never said it was, I said they're as much responsible as anyone else
>> for DMG's rise and Proracing's demise. Look, it's like this, had most
>> things been just half-way hunky-dory Proracing would have thrived, or
>> at the very least been a little more financially viable, but as it
>> turned out they ended up with the short end of the "get 'um all in SB
>> stick," and DMG came along to do their version of clean up the mess.
>> I'm prolly not gonna like it, and when I tried to warn you guys this
>> could happen all I got was a bunch of grief because all you choose to
>> hear was AMA bashing, and while I admit to being vocal on some of their
>> race day decision's, in reality it was more of a caveat than anything
>> else. For Christ's sake Nusbaum, this is America and we have a long and
>> storied history of bastardizing things, if somebody thinks they can
>> make some, or more money on something, oh well. I mean c'mon, the OEM's
>> had a plan to make money in racing, 'Zuki's was with the big Gixxr,
>> Honda took a cheaper approach with FX, and Yam and Kaw just bailed
>> instead of trying, but in doing so they *all* kinda' left Proracing to
>> twist in the wind and BOOM!! DMG shows up with a pocket full of cash,
>> as well as a *new* way of doing business. It's a just bigass shark
>> dining on a crippled fish, and really nothing more, sure, it suks, but
>> whatcha' gonna' do?
>
> Woah! "I'm prolly not gonna like it"? "It suks"?? Weren't you the "We
> own it!" and "Not so bad, eh?" guy? Anyway, let's go back almost
> exactly one year (6/16/07), when you posed this question and we had
> this little exchange:

So, I take it you agree with the above, okay..
{snippage}
>
>
> Well, I can see why you're backsliding now, trying deperately to do
> that subtle little dance to the rational side of this matter. Looking
> at what I said, my thought in retrospect is that I really had no idea
> exactly how bad it could get. Btw, here is the latest public opinion on
> the whole DMG mess:

Backslide? Why? Damn near everything is turning out pretty much like I
thought and said it would, whether I like it, or not is immaterial..

>
> http :// www .roadracingworld,com /news/article/?article=32852
>
> I particularly like this one:
>
> If the elevator door opened and Roger Edmondson stepped in, this is what
> I would say to him:

Heh, I'd prolly ask him for a loan, then maybe I could afford some damn
gas to go to some of their races!
>
> The battle last year between Spies and Mladin was epic. Those two guys
> rode so hard, and pushed each other so much, they almost killed
> themselves in the process. That I would pay to see (and did, at Laguna
> Seca, VIR and Road Atlanta; and this year I have already attended races
> at Barber and Miller and plan to see the show at Road Atlanta). At all
> of the race weekends I have attended, I have never once watched an
> entire Formula Xtreme race, even though those races have produced some
> of the closest racing in the series. Make no mistake, the attraction for
> me (and for many other road racing fans, I am willing to bet) is and has
> been watching a couple of the best riders in the world try to tame those
> 1000cc beasts and beat the other guy to the finish line.

Whatever lifts your skirt I guess, but did I read that right? You're
coming east to Braselton? Hmm...

>
> And now, just when Hacking and Kawasaki and Hodgson and Honda are
> starting to show some real progress, and it looks like we might be in
> for a few great battles at the front, you want to neuter the series by
> putting everyone on 600cc bikes and call the show "Daytona Superbike."
> Give me a break.

You wanna bet some real money on whether Hacking and Hodgy start
fighting for wins? If so, I prolly know somebody that would gladly take
some of that action..

> Do you have any idea how much easier it is to ride a
> 600cc machine than it is to ride one of those 1000cc monsters that the
> big boys ride around on? Do you think the leaders of any other sport
> would sit around brainstorming and come up with the following idea? "OK,
> I've got it, let's change the rules to make our premier class 50%
> easier! That will bring more fans out for our shows."

I don't know how much "easier" it might be, but the more the merrier as
far as I'm concerned..
>
> This is what you need to understand. I am happy to shell out good money
> to see something special, like a three-year smack-down battle between
> two of the best riders in the world on wickedly fast GSX-R1000s. Even if
> on most days those two guys are 30 seconds ahead of the other riders on
> the track. Thirty years from now racing fans still will be talking about
> those battles. Don't unnecessarily water down your best product by
> putting all of the riders on 600cc machines. It's not necessarily close
> racing that I want to see. I want to see unique riders doing unique
> things. Oh, yeah, and I don't want to see them get killed trying to ride
> in the rain at Mid-Ohio.

Hold up a second, ISTR you (?) going off on me about a decision to race
in the rain there a while back, if so that's not even a crawfish, it's
a flip flop..

Be that as it may, it's obvious you just don't get it, these guys don't
care about how it was done, or what came before, they're like the Borg
and will assimilate what they want, then toss the rest and bitching
about it is irrelevant. This deal wasn't a merge, it's a buy out plain
and simple, and they're gonna do as they please and taking prisoner's,
or listening to how it was done, or how it is done elsewhere I don't
see being real big on their to-do list. Sure, they prolly wouldn't mind
taking your money on race-day, but they're looking to fleece, err, tend
a much larger flock than Proracing ever dreamt of. That said, it still
remains to be seen whether they can actually deliver, but if it's
possible I'd think these are the guys that could swing it, so we'll
see...

Re: Voices speak..

T3 wrote:
> Mark N said:
>> Woah! "I'm prolly not gonna like it"? "It suks"?? Weren't you the "We
>> own it!" and "Not so bad, eh?" guy? Anyway, let's go back almost
>> exactly one year (6/16/07), when you posed this question and we had
>> this little exchange:
>
> So, I take it you agree with the above, okay..

I would suggest that you not take it that way...

> {snippage}
[Tom the Historical Revisionist attempts to destroy the evidence]

>> Well, I can see why you're backsliding now, trying deperately to do
>> that subtle little dance to the rational side of this matter. Looking
>> at what I said, my thought in retrospect is that I really had no idea
>> exactly how bad it could get. Btw, here is the latest public opinion on
>> the whole DMG mess:
>
> Backslide? Why? Damn near everything is turning out pretty much like I
> thought and said it would,

Hah! Whether or not you predicted it, and with all your spitting and
sputtering on the AMA over the years it's impossible to say what you
might have "predicted", you certainly got what you so clearly wanted,
the AMA is a goner and Your Boys are now in charge. Congratulations, you
must be very pleased.

As far as our predictions on the details, based on our discussion a year
ago (before any of this went down), I seem to have been concerned about
their lack of focus, their Daytona-centrism and the way that impacts the
rest of the series, their switch to dumbed-down 600s, the possibility of
more bowls and less safety, the manufactured competitiveness bit and
driving the factories off. Seems to me that we've seen all of that in
play so far, and in spades. But to you that "resembles either a dodge,
or windmill chase", and that I needed "some time to formulate a rational
response". Hmm.

You, on the other hand, seemed to think anything good for Daytona would
be viewed as good for the OEMs, that the problem with 600s was the AMA
(as always), that we have to live with bowls because no other tracks
will be built (and even Rog Ed talked this week about niew road courses
coming on line in New Jersey, Texas and Norh Carolina, publicly
dismissing Loudon and Watkins Glen), that the OEMs would stop the
NASCARization of bike racing. Double hmm, seems like you pretty much
missed the boat completely...

> whether I like it, or not is immaterial..

Oh, no, it's very material. I don't think there's any question at all
that you wanted the AMA out of racing, and no question that you hoped
France & Co. would take over. Why that is is an open question, I guess,
and maybe that doesn't matter. But this new notion that you don't
actually like what is happening, what Your Boys are doing to racing in
this country, is pretty clearly a spin move on your part, an effort to
not end up looking like an isolated chump. Good luck with that...

>> http :// www .roadracingworld,com /news/article/?article=32852
>
>> I particularly like this one:
>>
>> If the elevator door opened and Roger Edmondson stepped in, this is what
>> I would say to him:
>>
> Heh, I'd prolly ask him for a loan, then maybe I could afford some damn
> gas to go to some of their races!

You'd have plenty if you didn't let so much of it escape around here...

>> The battle last year between Spies and Mladin was epic. Those two guys
>> rode so hard, and pushed each other so much, they almost killed
>> themselves in the process. That I would pay to see (and did, at Laguna
>> Seca, VIR and Road Atlanta; and this year I have already attended races
>> at Barber and Miller and plan to see the show at Road Atlanta). At all
>> of the race weekends I have attended, I have never once watched an
>> entire Formula Xtreme race, even though those races have produced some
>> of the closest racing in the series. Make no mistake, the attraction for
>> me (and for many other road racing fans, I am willing to bet) is and has
>> been watching a couple of the best riders in the world try to tame those
>> 1000cc beasts and beat the other guy to the finish line.
>
> Whatever lifts your skirt I guess, but did I read that right? You're
> coming east to Braselton? Hmm...

No, you didn't - I didn't write this, it's from a letter to RRW - please
start over...

>> And now, just when Hacking and Kawasaki and Hodgson and Honda are
>> starting to show some real progress, and it looks like we might be in
>> for a few great battles at the front, you want to neuter the series by
>> putting everyone on 600cc bikes and call the show "Daytona Superbike."
>> Give me a break.
>
> You wanna bet some real money on whether Hacking and Hodgy start
> fighting for wins? If so, I prolly know somebody that would gladly take
> some of that action..

Things always look that way to a lot of folks, don't they? Just like
when Julian said he couldn't see anyone but Stoner winning in MotoGP
this year. Not that I would predict it, but I wouldn't be terribly
surprised if the racing gets closer down the stretch, I think the
others have more overhead room for improvement. But someone else
actually winning? Yes, that will likely take something very unusual to
happen.

>> Do you have any idea how much easier it is to ride a
>> 600cc machine than it is to ride one of those 1000cc monsters that the
>> big boys ride around on? Do you think the leaders of any other sport
>> would sit around brainstorming and come up with the following idea? "OK,
>> I've got it, let's change the rules to make our premier class 50%
>> easier! That will bring more fans out for our shows."
>
> I don't know how much "easier" it might be, but the more the merrier as
> far as I'm concerned..

Yes, we know financial viability is your primary test and "bigger is
always better"...

>> This is what you need to understand. I am happy to shell out good money
>> to see something special, like a three-year smack-down battle between
>> two of the best riders in the world on wickedly fast GSX-R1000s. Even if
>> on most days those two guys are 30 seconds ahead of the other riders on
>> the track. Thirty years from now racing fans still will be talking about
>> those battles. Don't unnecessarily water down your best product by
>> putting all of the riders on 600cc machines. It's not necessarily close
>> racing that I want to see. I want to see unique riders doing unique
>> things. Oh, yeah, and I don't want to see them get killed trying to ride
>> in the rain at Mid-Ohio.
>
> Hold up a second, ISTR you (?) going off on me about a decision to race
> in the rain there a while back, if so that's not even a crawfish, it's
> a flip flop..

Possibly, if I actually wrote that, which I didn't. And my position at
Mid-Ohio wasn't that they should race in the rain, two years ago it was
that the whole issue there went a lot farther than simply blaming it all
on the AMA (as you always do) and moving on, that the riders did things
they shouldn't have, and that a big part of it should be laid at the
feet of Michelle "the Bitch" Trueman-Jockitch as well. Last year it was
just that they did the right thing trying to get the races in on Sunday,
while you said they should have called the whole thing by late morning.

> Be that as it may, it's obvious you just don't get it, these guys
> don't care about how it was done, or what came before, they're like the Borg
> and will assimilate what they want, then toss the rest and bitching
> about it is irrelevant. This deal wasn't a merge, it's a buy out plain
> and simple, and they're gonna do as they please and taking prisoner's,
> or listening to how it was done, or how it is done elsewhere I don't
> see being real big on their to-do list. Sure, they prolly wouldn't mind
> taking your money on race-day, but they're looking to fleece, err, tend
> a much larger flock than Proracing ever dreamt of.

Don't know how many times you've said this in various forms, but
guessing dozens, and I still don't understand why you keep repeating
yourself. Yes, what we discuss around here has no material impact on
these guys, just like what we write about anything doesn't. But that
doesn't mean we should all just shut up and go away, on any subject,
it's a forum, for God's sake, nothing more and nothing less. That's not
to say they'll just ignore everything everyone says, I think there are
already some small signs that they have some awareness of some of their
larger gaffs and have reacted a bit. Rog's public reaction on track
additions this week might have been that sort of thing. For course, we
don't know if he's just lying about that, I guess.

Regarding this particular aspect of their actions, you're the one who
wanted a dictatorship. So how do you feel about it now?

> That said, it still
> remains to be seen whether they can actually deliver, but if it's
> possible I'd think these are the guys that could swing it, so we'll
> see

Again, who cares if they succeed in bringing in more fans and making
more money, if the product gets degraded in the process? You seem to
think a shitty product watched by more people is somehow an improvement.
And if you don't, why do you keep talking about it this way?

Anyway, here's the little exchange from a year ago that preceded what I
posted earlier:

T3: I've been hearing alot of 2nd hand stuff about Moto-ST maybe taking
a run at Proracing with expanded classes, as well as calender next year.
Thoughts?

Bruce H.: Could be good - they might really know how to build a base &
support for growing MC racing, my concern is who is going to ride in it?
Chicken/egg thing, until it is big enough to really compete with AMA
it'll be hard to get top riders & without top riders it'll be hard to
grow & compete.

MN (cont.): What it takes is the factories jumping, they are the ones
who decide who has a real show and who doesn't. When Edmondson decided
to take on the AMA in '95 and several tracks went with him, it was the
aligning of the factories with the AMA that snuffed that out. But the
factories will NOT jump unless they are truly unhappy with where they
are, and see a truly viable alternative.

T3: I think you're correct, he didn't have all the ducks lined up, nor
did he have the heavy hitters and deep pocket boys behind him either. It
just might be different this time around, very different indeed..

MN (cont.): I vaguely remember what happened in Australia when another
series challenged ARRC back in the early '90s (?), and it seemed like
that really ended that country having a truly top national championship
series. And of course there's been the George/IRL challenge to CART in
indy car racing that pretty much destroyed open wheel in America.
Before anyone gets too excited about finally being able to dump the
AMA, think about all the possible alternatives. And I think Moto-ST's
association with France and Daytona is NOT a good thing for bike
racing, it smeels too much like the IRL - can you imagine a bike
series that's entirely run on road courses inside bowls? Something to
think about on the weekend of the Loudon "Classic"...

T3: Tony George is small time compared to France and associates Mark and
he isn't that small. If in fact ST makes a major move on AMA I'd imagine
they'd simply cut a check and not a very large one either, though if
they had tacit appoval from the OEM's they might not feel the need.
So, why don't you like France? Like that outfit doesn't know how to run
a series? Or is it something deeper, like your undying hatred of
anything not Californicated? I'm being serious now, so don't go off and
start slammin' me, 'kay?

BH: Don't know about Mark, but for me it seems if will go for a 2 wheel
NASCAR which might work and make billions of dollars for everyone
invloved, but the actual racing will be on slow bikes with artificial
restrictions so they can run in all the old tracks ( a big point in that
article) which means that it won't be that interesting to me to watch,
won't be pushing bike development, won't be putting better, newer,
updated tracks that could also host World SBK or MotoGP bikes.

T3: If in fact that's what they propose I will be one of the first to
openly trash it, though I'd be very surprised if the OEM's go for
anything like that. The track issue is a horse of a different color and
with the financial climate as it is today, I'd be very surprised if we
see (m)any new road courses anytime soon, that and the cold fact that
France owns a bunch of bowls already and some of those concrete
abominations might not be too bad if they had a decent infield. Would it
be perfect? Hell no, but it could be a lot better than lanquishing as we
are now. Oh, and don't think I'm sold on any ST deal, I'm just musing
the what if's...

MN (cont.): No, I think what would be better is for someone who knows
what they're doing to buy the series from the AMA. Of course, who's
really out there who knows what they're doing?

T3: Err, the Moto-ST boys?


Seems like a case of a thousand words painting a pretty clear picture. I
particularly liked this one: "If in fact that's what they propose I will
be one of the first to openly trash it, though I'd be very surprised if
the OEM's go for anything like that." Hah!!

Re: Voices speak..

On 2008-06-18 00:37:12 -0400, Mark N <menusbaum@NYETSPAMearthlink,net > said:

> T3 wrote:
>> Mark N said:
>>> Woah! "I'm prolly not gonna like it"? "It suks"?? Weren't you the "We
>>> own it!" and "Not so bad, eh?" guy? Anyway, let's go back almost
>>> exactly one year (6/16/07), when you posed this question and we had
>>> this little exchange:
>>
>> So, I take it you agree with the above, okay..
>
> I would suggest that you not take it that way...
>
>> {snippage}
> [Tom the Historical Revisionist attempts to destroy the evidence]

What evidence? Evidence that you're some sort of pompous, elitist fool?
In that case, you got me..
>
>>> Well, I can see why you're backsliding now, trying deperately to do
>>> that subtle little dance to the rational side of this matter. Looking
>>> at what I said, my thought in retrospect is that I really had no idea
>>> exactly how bad it could get. Btw, here is the latest public opinion on
>>> the whole DMG mess:
>>
>> Backslide? Why? Damn near everything is turning out pretty much like I
>> thought and said it would,
>
> Hah! Whether or not you predicted it, and with all your spitting and
> sputtering on the AMA over the years it's impossible to say what you
> might have "predicted", you certainly got what you so clearly wanted,
> the AMA is a goner and Your Boys are now in charge. Congratulations, you
> must be very pleased.

Whether, or not? Heheeeeh, riiiight..
Unlike you I realize my wants and needs don't extend into this deal, I
simply tried to tell you this was possible. You, with all the wisdom of
a new born squid chose to jump up and down and ignore what many saw as
obvious. Unlike you, I've been around a long time and have seen things
like this before and knew right off this was gonna get ugly before it
got better, but calling DMG my boy's because I like M/C racing at
Daytona, or live in Florida would be like me calling you an earthquake
lover because you live in the 'Frisco area, so stop, it only makes you
look more a provincial schmuck than you probably are..(or not)
>
> As far as our predictions on the details, based on our discussion a year
> ago (before any of this went down), I seem to have been concerned about
> their lack of focus, their Daytona-centrism and the way that impacts the
> rest of the series, their switch to dumbed-down 600s, the possibility of
> more bowls and less safety, the manufactured competitiveness bit and
> driving the factories off. Seems to me that we've seen all of that in
> play so far, and in spades. But to you that "resembles either a dodge,
> or windmill chase", and that I needed "some time to formulate a rational
> response". Hmm.

Until I actually see it I won't actually know, will I? You see, unlike
you I don't blindly follow what some others (with an agenda) may say, I
like to poke around and see for myself, and when I, or if I finally do
figure it out I might tell you what I think, that is, if I actually
believe you might understand. Until then, well, until then..
>
> You, on the other hand, seemed to think anything good for Daytona would
> be viewed as good for the OEMs, that the problem with 600s was the AMA
> (as always), that we have to live with bowls because no other tracks
> will be built (and even Rog Ed talked this week about niew road courses
> coming on line in New Jersey, Texas and Norh Carolina, publicly
> dismissing Loudon and Watkins Glen), that the OEMs would stop the
> NASCARization of bike racing. Double hmm, seems like you pretty much
> missed the boat completely...

Oh really? Either you're off your meds, or you're just and out and out,
well, never mind, in any case there's not much sense wasting anymore
time on you. You didn't know much, and I mean very little whatsoever
about US racing then, and it's fairly obvious you haven't learned a
whole bunch since. You may think you dazzle some around here with all
your cut and paste slant's on things, or your overly verbose reply's,
but when it gets down to conceptualizing, or understanding how some
processes actually work, you appear as lost as a baby in the forest..

>
>> whether I like it, or not is immaterial..
>
> Oh, no, it's very material. I don't think there's any question at all
> that you wanted the AMA out of racing, and no question that you hoped
> France & Co. would take over. Why that is is an open question, I guess,
> and maybe that doesn't matter. But this new notion that you don't
> actually like what is happening, what Your Boys are doing to racing in
> this country, is pretty clearly a spin move on your part, an effort to
> not end up looking like an isolated chump. Good luck with that...

It is only material to your over-inflated sense of worth, they do not
care whether you like it or not, period, and as far as an isolated
chump? Well, I tell ya' what, you wanna see an isolated chump? Go no
farther than a mirror..


>
>>> http :// www .roadracingworld,com /news/article/?article=32852
>>
>>> I particularly like this one:
>>>
>>> If the elevator door opened and Roger Edmondson stepped in, this is what
>>> I would say to him:
>>>
>> Heh, I'd prolly ask him for a loan, then maybe I could afford some damn
>> gas to go to some of their races!
>
> You'd have plenty if you didn't let so much of it escape around here...


So now wanna trade insults? I suggest you arm yourself first, as you're
way over your head in that dept. too.. Heheh, I've got a purdy good one
to, but you're waaay too easy, so I'll resist the temptation, at least
for the moment..


>>> The battle last year between Spies and Mladin was epic. Those two guys
>>> rode so hard, and pushed each other so much, they almost killed
>>> themselves in the process. That I would pay to see (and did, at Laguna
>>> Seca, VIR and Road Atlanta; and this year I have already attended races
>>> at Barber and Miller and plan to see the show at Road Atlanta). At all
>>> of the race weekends I have attended, I have never once watched an
>>> entire Formula Xtreme race, even though those races have produced some
>>> of the closest racing in the series. Make no mistake, the attraction for
>>> me (and for many other road racing fans, I am willing to bet) is and has
>>> been watching a couple of the best riders in the world try to tame those
>>> 1000cc beasts and beat the other guy to the finish line.
>>
>> Whatever lifts your skirt I guess, but did I read that right? You're
>> coming east to Braselton? Hmm...
>
> No, you didn't - I didn't write this, it's from a letter to RRW - please
> start over...

Like most of what you write, I (and quite a few others) don't bother to
get that deep in, as it's almost always some kind of BS and in your
case sometimes racist, or waay off color bullshit too, though I will
tell ya' I'm kinda' disappointed, I was sorta' lookin' forward to us
gettin' together for a few seconds up in Georgia..

>
>>> And now, just when Hacking and Kawasaki and Hodgson and Honda are
>>> starting to show some real progress, and it looks like we might be in
>>> for a few great battles at the front, you want to neuter the series by
>>> putting everyone on 600cc bikes and call the show "Daytona Superbike."
>>> Give me a break.
>>
>> You wanna bet some real money on whether Hacking and Hodgy start
>> fighting for wins? If so, I prolly know somebody that would gladly take
>> some of that action..
>
> Things always look that way to a lot of folks, don't they? Just like
> when Julian said he couldn't see anyone but Stoner winning in MotoGP
> this year. Not that I would predict it, but I wouldn't be terribly
> surprised if the racing gets closer down the stretch, I think the
> others have more overhead room for improvement. But someone else
> actually winning? Yes, that will likely take something very unusual to
> happen.

I assume that was a no, oh well. Why I thought you might actually put
some money behind your mouth eludes me now, but if you ever do have an
original thought and want to back it up let me know, as I'd prolly be
more than happy to take your money..

>
>>> Do you have any idea how much easier it is to ride a
>>> 600cc machine than it is to ride one of those 1000cc monsters that the
>>> big boys ride around on? Do you think the leaders of any other sport
>>> would sit around brainstorming and come up with the following idea? "OK,
>>> I've got it, let's change the rules to make our premier class 50%
>>> easier! That will bring more fans out for our shows."
>>
>> I don't know how much "easier" it might be, but the more the merrier as
>> far as I'm concerned..
>
> Yes, we know financial viability is your primary test and "bigger is
> always better"...

Umm, I'm pretty sure financial viability is better than financial *UN*
viability, at least in this dimension , yours? I'm not so sure. Dude,
if it ain't making money it prolly ain't gonna be around too long and
if DMG says anything, I'm thinkin' longevity is one of them, so get
real for a change..

>
>>> This is what you need to understand. I am happy to shell out good money
>>> to see something special, like a three-year smack-down battle between
>>> two of the best riders in the world on wickedly fast GSX-R1000s. Even if
>>> on most days those two guys are 30 seconds ahead of the other riders on
>>> the track. Thirty years from now racing fans still will be talking about
>>> those battles. Don't unnecessarily water down your best product by
>>> putting all of the riders on 600cc machines. It's not necessarily close
>>> racing that I want to see. I want to see unique riders doing unique
>>> things. Oh, yeah, and I don't want to see them get killed trying to ride
>>> in the rain at Mid-Ohio.
>>
>> Hold up a second, ISTR you (?) going off on me about a decision to race
>> in the rain there a while back, if so that's not even a crawfish, it's
>> a flip flop..
>
> Possibly, if I actually wrote that, which I didn't. And my position at
> Mid-Ohio wasn't that they should race in the rain, two years ago it was
> that the whole issue there went a lot farther than simply blaming it all
> on the AMA (as you always do) and moving on, that the riders did things
> they shouldn't have, and that a big part of it should be laid at the
> feet of Michelle "the Bitch" Trueman-Jockitch as well. Last year it was
> just that they did the right thing trying to get the races in on Sunday,
> while you said they should have called the whole thing by late morning.

Possibly my ass. I dunno for sure, but "somehow" ISTR you were all over
me for suggesting they rain-out that race instead of running it late
and wet and now you lament someone getting hurt? Wow, you *are* a piece
of work! Heheh, another prime example of your revisionist BS..

>
>> Be that as it may, it's obvious you just don't get it, these guys
>> don't care about how it was done, or what came before, they're like the Borg
>> and will assimilate what they want, then toss the rest and bitching
>> about it is irrelevant. This deal wasn't a merge, it's a buy out plain
>> and simple, and they're gonna do as they please and taking prisoner's,
>> or listening to how it was done, or how it is done elsewhere I don't
>> see being real big on their to-do list. Sure, they prolly wouldn't mind
>> taking your money on race-day, but they're looking to fleece, err, tend
>> a much larger flock than Proracing ever dreamt of.
>
> Don't know how many times you've said this in various forms, but
> guessing dozens, and I still don't understand why you keep repeating
> yourself. Yes, what we discuss around here has no material impact on
> these guys, just like what we write about anything doesn't. But that
> doesn't mean we should all just shut up and go away, on any subject,
> it's a forum, for God's sake, nothing more and nothing less. That's not
> to say they'll just ignore everything everyone says, I think there are
> already some small signs that they have some awareness of some of their
> larger gaffs and have reacted a bit. Rog's public reaction on track
> additions this week might have been that sort of thing. For course, we
> don't know if he's just lying about that, I guess.

What you don't understand and more than likely never will, is the
futility in all your venom, all it does is make you look like a bigger
fool than you are, that is, if that's possible..
They obviously have a plan that has been in the works for some time and
I doubt seriously they're gonna deviate too far from it, at least not
for a while anyway. You don't like it? Cool, move on, there's always
WSB, and GP..(btw, ISTR saying that a while back too)
>
> Regarding this particular aspect of their actions, you're the one who
> wanted a dictatorship. So how do you feel about it now?

Pretty much like I did then. Now, whether Edmunson is the one US racing
needs or not remains to be seen..
>
>> That said, it still
>> remains to be seen whether they can actually deliver, but if it's
>> possible I'd think these are the guys that could swing it, so we'll
>> see
>
> Again, who cares if they succeed in bringing in more fans and making
> more money, if the product gets degraded in the process? You seem to
> think a shitty product watched by more people is somehow an improvement.
> And if you don't, why do you keep talking about it this way?

I haven't said much about what I personally think about this deal Mark,
by design too, but yes, bringing in more fans is what they're all
about, that you refuse to see it's their absolute God given right as
the owners to do so is puzzling..
>
> Anyway, here's the little exchange from a year ago that preceded what I
> posted earlier:

Cool, let's review..
>
> T3: I've been hearing alot of 2nd hand stuff about Moto-ST maybe taking
> a run at Proracing with expanded classes, as well as calender next year.
> Thoughts?

Damn, who knew, or listened for that matter? Obviously you were too
busy defending Yosh and the status quo..
>
> Bruce H.: Could be good - they might really know how to build a base &
> support for growing MC racing, my concern is who is going to ride in it?
> Chicken/egg thing, until it is big enough to really compete with AMA
> it'll be hard to get top riders & without top riders it'll be hard to
> grow & compete.
>
> MN (cont.): What it takes is the factories jumping, they are the ones
> who decide who has a real show and who doesn't. When Edmondson decided
> to take on the AMA in '95 and several tracks went with him, it was the
> aligning of the factories with the AMA that snuffed that out. But the
> factories will NOT jump unless they are truly unhappy with where they
> are, and see a truly viable alternative.
>
> T3: I think you're correct, he didn't have all the ducks lined up, nor
> did he have the heavy hitters and deep pocket boys behind him either. It
> just might be different this time around, very different indeed..

Again, pretty insightful, huh?

>
> MN (cont.): I vaguely remember what happened in Australia when another
> series challenged ARRC back in the early '90s (?), and it seemed like
> that really ended that country having a truly top national championship
> series. And of course there's been the George/IRL challenge to CART in
> indy car racing that pretty much destroyed open wheel in America.
> Before anyone gets too excited about finally being able to dump the
> AMA, think about all the possible alternatives. And I think Moto-ST's
> association with France and Daytona is NOT a good thing for bike
> racing, it smeels too much like the IRL - can you imagine a bike
> series that's entirely run on road courses inside bowls? Something to
> think about on the weekend of the Loudon "Classic"...

A

Re: Voices speak..

T3 replies to the clueless:

> On 2008-06-18 00:37:12 -0400, Mark N said:

So it must be a slow summer,eh? I'm suprised
anybody that frequents r.m.r reads the whole anything
Mark N posts. I'd rather ride or at least have an intelligent
conversation.

Check Rec.moto.dirt for report of the Sturd Ranch
Mini Bike Classic last weekend.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.