And away we go!

Re: And away we go!

T3 wrote:
> Bruce Hartweg said:
>> sounds a little bit like defending it.
>
> No more than me saying gravity will bring my lazyass to the ground if I
> fall, it just is and as such I deal with it. All this pissin' and
> moanin' over what the future will be, or what you, or I may like is
> irrelevant, but to take it to MN's level one would have to really have a
> vastly over-inflated sense of worth, that is, who gives a shit? I'll say
> it again, these guys bought it and are going to do as they see fit.

It sure seems like the opinion of long-standing and dedicated fans would
mean something to these guys. But if their target is mass-consumption
entertainment, perhaps not. Perhaps the traditional fan base is as
disposable as the factories to these guys. If so, why should we like
what's going on any more than the OEMs do?

> Like it, or not things are going to change and we're just spectators in
> a fairly good sized poker game. Jumping up and down cryin' is a waste of
> time and obscures the real processes going on

I think all the discussion in this NG has been about what has been going
in, and in a very detailed level. I haven't seen anyone "jumping up and
down cryin'".

and if you haven't checked
> lately those processes are probably more interesting than watching SB
> race, which, when you stop and think about it, brings this whole thing
> full circle.

Seems like I saw some pretty good racing this weekend, definitely worth
the trip to SoCal. But maybe I was just mistaken, nostalgic tears
clouding my vision...

It was universally said that racing needed to improve and
> improvement can't, or doesn't happen without change, well guess what?
> Change is upon us and we can either walk away, or deal with it.

Yes, but there was a lot of change that was possible. The AMA could have
brought someone it who could have done the job of promoting the series
and tweak the rules to make it function better and improve the show, but
retain much more of the existing structure and tradition and not just
sold out to someone who is going to throw the whole thing in the wood
chipper, as they say in Minnesota...

I
> realize there are those who like to confuse,

Like who? If someone is misrepresenting what is going on here, you
should be specific.

or make issues more complex
> than they are, but that's really the bottom line, isn't it?

Yes, and that's exactly what everyone has been talking about. Most not
happy with a lot of what is happening, and you in orgasmic joy over it
all, amazingly non-analytical and non-critical.

Re: And away we go!

On 2008-04-28 06:03:12 -0400, Mark N <menusbaum@NYETSPAMearthlink,net > said:

> T3 wrote:
>> Bruce Hartweg said:
>>> sounds a little bit like defending it.
>>
>> No more than me saying gravity will bring my lazyass to the ground if I
>> fall, it just is and as such I deal with it. All this pissin' and
>> moanin' over what the future will be, or what you, or I may like is
>> irrelevant, but to take it to MN's level one would have to really have
>> a vastly over-inflated sense of worth, that is, who gives a shit? I'll
>> say it again, these guys bought it and are going to do as they see fit.
>
> It sure seems like the opinion of long-standing and dedicated fans
> would mean something to these guys. But if their target is
> mass-consumption entertainment, perhaps not. Perhaps the traditional
> fan base is as disposable as the factories to these guys. If so, why
> should we like what's going on any more than the OEMs do?

You have to understand the OEM's position in this deal is quite
different from most fans, that is, the core fan base. Core fans, at
least the one's I and most likely DMG considers core fans, are taking
the wait and see attitude. When you, or someone else proclaims they've
spent their last dollar going to races without even seeing the rule
book, much less waiting to go to one sorta' cut themselves out of that
herd and in some cases that reveals they had agenda's just like the
OEMs, at least to me..

>
>> Like it, or not things are going to change and we're just spectators in
>> a fairly good sized poker game. Jumping up and down cryin' is a waste
>> of time and obscures the real processes going on
>
> I think all the discussion in this NG has been about what has been
> going in, and in a very detailed level. I haven't seen anyone "jumping
> up and down cryin'".

For Christ's sake, calling them racist? Dude, the only color these guys
are partial to is green and they don't give a tinker's dam the color of
who sends it their way!!

>
> and if you haven't checked
>> lately those processes are probably more interesting than watching SB
>> race, which, when you stop and think about it, brings this whole thing
>> full circle.
>
> Seems like I saw some pretty good racing this weekend, definitely worth
> the trip to SoCal. But maybe I was just mistaken, nostalgic tears
> clouding my vision...

I don't know what you saw as you've effectively and very publicly
removed yourself from the real fan base. If SB is still the premiere
class I saw little more than a Suzuki commercial that started to take
shape at Barber, but now looks complete. The last few years the only
drama was for 3rd place anyway, now that looks to be settled too and if
anyone say's they saw a good SB race they musta' been looking a
something different than I was..

\1. Ben Spies (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, 28 laps
2. Mat Mladin (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -0.011-second
3. Tommy Hayden (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -31.328 seconds
4. Neil Hodgson (Hon CBR1000RR), Dunlop, -34.392
5. Jason DiSalvo (Yam YZF-R1), Dunlop, -37.523
6. Eric Bostrom (Yam YZF-R1), Dunlop, -46.212
7. Jamie Hacking (Kaw ZX-10R), Dunlop, -67.094
8. Scott Jensen (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -1 lap *
9. Matt Lynn (Hon CBR1000RR), Dunlop, -1 lap, 27.793 seconds
10. Dean Mizdal (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -2 laps
11. Tim Knutson (Suz GSX-R1000), -2 laps, 8.686 seconds
12. Johnny Rock Page (Yam YZF-R1), Dunlop, -3 laps
13. Miguel Duhamel (Hon CBR1000RR), Dunlop, -18 laps, DNF, retired
14. Aaron Yates (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -19 laps, DNF, crash
15. Jake Holden (Hon CBR1000RR), Dunlop, -22 laps, DNF, retired *
16. Geoff May (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -24 laps, DNF *
17. Jason Pridmore (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -27 laps, DNF *
18. Robertino Pietri (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, DNS *
19. Jeremy Toye (Hon CBR1000RR), Dunlop, DNS *
20. Hawk Mazzotta (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, DNS *
21. Chris Peris (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, DNS *

That pretty much says it all..

SSport and FX was another deal and "oddly enough" where DMG is focusing..
SStock,(aka Gixxr cup) beyond Holden, who really cares? Suzuki, that's who!
1. Jake Holden (Hon CBR1000RR), Dunlop, 17 laps
2. Aaron Yates (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -0.174 second
3. Blake Young (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -0.574
4. Robertino Pietri (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -3.029 seconds
5. Jason Pridmore (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -4.622
6. Chris Peris (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -6.017
7. Chris Ulrich (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -16.459
8. Scott Jensen (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -16.610
9. Geoff May (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -19.169
10. David Anthony (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -25.435
11. Ryan Elleby (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -34.248
12. Shane Narbonne (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -50.826
>
> It was universally said that racing needed to improve and
>> improvement can't, or doesn't happen without change, well guess what?
>> Change is upon us and we can either walk away, or deal with it.
>
> Yes, but there was a lot of change that was possible. The AMA could
> have brought someone it who could have done the job of promoting the
> series and tweak the rules to make it function better and improve the
> show, but retain much more of the existing structure and tradition and
> not just sold out to someone who is going to throw the whole thing in
> the wood chipper, as they say in Minnesota...

Again, you're missing the boat, or in this case, missed the boat. M/C
racing in this country was broke, and broke not only in the
dysfunctional sense, but insolvent as well. To continue it had to
improve and with any improvement always comes with change and there's
little doubt of that simple fact. Now, if someone feels the need to
go-off on what could, or might have been, I suppose that's okay, but in
doing so they tend to miss what actually DID happen, as well as what IS
happening and that's just one of the reasons I think that type of tract
is frivolous and a waste of time..

>
> I
>> realize there are those who like to confuse,
>
> Like who? If someone is misrepresenting what is going on here, you
> should be specific.
>
> or make issues more complex
>> than they are, but that's really the bottom line, isn't it?

Ya'know, I get real tired repeating myself and who knows, maybe you're
counting on that, but for the last time, any attempt to make these guys
out bumpkins, racist, rednecks, or whatever is total bullshit. If
anything their track records suggests something 180 degrees in the
opposite direction..

>
> Yes, and that's exactly what everyone has been talking about. Most not
> happy with a lot of what is happening, and you in orgasmic joy over it
> all, amazingly non-analytical and non-critical.

Sure, I got a little wood seeing you eat some crow and possibly will
again if this deal works out, but beyond that and *at this time* I
really don't have an opinion. Now, I think they've said they're going
to address many of the ills M/C racing in this country suffers and
while there's no reason for me to think they won't, *until they
actually do* and I've had time to see it, I will delay any judgement
and that's what I think is the difference between a "core fan" and
others who probably have agenda's. I realize this is most likely a
waste of time on you, but passing judgement on something you don't
really know about and damn sure haven't seen is, at least to me, pretty
f'ing dumb. Until then, I see this more as a who done it soap opera
that ended up a high stakes poker game and will concentrate more on the
subtleties and nuances involved, because at this point that's all
anyone outside the real player's can do. Understand, I know there's a
lot of folks put off so far and that's human nature, but that's also
denying the fact that it was broken. That covers the non-critical
part, the non-analytitcal part is so far off I actually chuckled! If
anything, I'm waaaay to analytical for my own good.....

Re: And away we go!

T3 wrote:
> Mark N said:
>> It sure seems like the opinion of long-standing and dedicated fans
>> would mean something to these guys. But if their target is
>> mass-consumption entertainment, perhaps not. Perhaps the traditional
>> fan base is as disposable as the factories to these guys. If so, why
>> should we like what's going on any more than the OEMs do?
>
> You have to understand the OEM's position in this deal is quite
> different from most fans, that is, the core fan base. Core fans, at
> least the one's I and most likely DMG considers core fans, are taking
> the wait and see attitude.

Well, I would concede that fans in your area probably feel good about
the local boys taking over, and that this means Daytona stays on the
calendar forever and will be the centerpiece in the series. Beyond that,
I don't see it. The small sample that is the NG is running strongly
against them. That Soup pole, which is the closest thing to a measure of
what fans think that I've seen, was overwhelmingly against them.

When you, or someone else proclaims they've
> spent their last dollar going to races without even seeing the rule
> book, much less waiting to go to one sorta' cut themselves out of that
> herd and in some cases that reveals they had agenda's just like the
> OEMs, at least to me..

Of course it would to you. So what magic is the rulebook going to
reveal? We already know they're going to make middleweights (at least
Japanese ones) the premier class, we know that a huge amount of track
time will be taken up with a twins endurance class, we know they're
going to run some sort of spec class, we know that they're going to try
to balance traditional middleweight sportbikes with a number of other
bigger twins, we know they're going to use control tires, we know
they're going to require all parts to be readily available and
affordable, we know they're going to use pace cars and rolling starts,
etc. How is the rulebook going to change any of that materially?

>> I think all the discussion in this NG has been about what has been
>> going in, and in a very detailed level. I haven't seen anyone "jumping
>> up and down cryin'".
>
> For Christ's sake, calling them racist? Dude, the only color these guys
> are partial to is green and they don't give a tinker's dam the color of
> who sends it their way!!

Who called the DMG guys racists? Not me. All I said is that I believe
it's likely that the recent success of Nascar is owed in part to the
role race plays in sports entertainment choices, and that these guys
know that and react accordingly - making Moto-ST largely a Eurobike
class and rejecting the OEMs (which essentially means the Japanese
OEMs), and we may well see more of that in the way that they balance the
machines in DSB when they do get around to making the rules. And that IS
all about making money.

>> Seems like I saw some pretty good racing this weekend, definitely
>> worth the trip to SoCal. But maybe I was just mistaken, nostalgic
>> tears clouding my vision...
>
> I don't know what you saw as you've effectively and very publicly
> removed yourself from the real fan base.

Oh, so anyone who doesn't take a neutral, wait-and-see attitude about
this isn't a real fan? So what about folks who have reacted with things
like, "racing's commin' home folks" and "we own it!" and "not so bad
now, huh?" (after the classes were announced)? Oh, that's right, you'd
consider that "wait and see"...

If SB is still the premiere
> class I saw little more than a Suzuki commercial that started to take
> shape at Barber, but now looks complete. The last few years the only
> drama was for 3rd place anyway,

Oh, you didn't notice a little something called Mladin vs. Spies last
year that came down to a last race winner-take-all and a championship
decided by a single point?

now that looks to be settled too

I guess you didn't notice that Tommy has had a bit of a fight to get
that last spot on the box the last few races and the largest margin he's
had over 4th is under four seconds.

and if
> anyone say's they saw a good SB race they musta' been looking a
> something different than I was..
>
> \1. Ben Spies (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, 28 laps
> 2. Mat Mladin (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -0.011-second
> 3. Tommy Hayden (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -31.328 seconds
> 4. Neil Hodgson (Hon CBR1000RR), Dunlop, -34.392
> 5. Jason DiSalvo (Yam YZF-R1), Dunlop, -37.523
> 6. Eric Bostrom (Yam YZF-R1), Dunlop, -46.212
> 7. Jamie Hacking (Kaw ZX-10R), Dunlop, -67.094
> 8. Scott Jensen (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -1 lap *
> 9. Matt Lynn (Hon CBR1000RR), Dunlop, -1 lap, 27.793 seconds
> 10. Dean Mizdal (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -2 laps

> That pretty much says it all..

What does it say? That Spies and Mladin are head-and-shoulders above
everyone else? Yeah, probably, but is that a rules problem? Tell me that
you believe they are no better than Hodgson and DiSalvo, tell me that
you think Tommy is worse than them, tell me that you think the current
rules are designed to give Suzuki an advantage, tell me that Suzuki's
commitment to SB racing here isn't part of it.

> SSport and FX was another deal and "oddly enough" where DMG is focusing..

Let's see, there were five races this weekend and four of them were
decided by less than 0.2 seconds, two running middleweights and two
running literbikes. Yes, the two middleweight races had three guys
around to almost the end (including two teammates in each) and SB only
had two, but SStock had four (five?). Whatever. It sure seems like your
love affair for middleweights started the day you finally accepted that
it was DIS who was responsible for bumping SB out of the 200 for FX and
not the AMA. Now what did you say after the Dingman-Edmundson love
affair at Daytona? "SB returns to the 200? You betcha'!"? I guess you
knew it was "Daytona" SBs all along, eh? Because, as you know, there are
only one or two tracks in this country that are safe for contemporary
literbikes...

> SStock,(aka Gixxr cup) beyond Holden, who really cares? Suzuki, that's who!

> 1. Jake Holden (Hon CBR1000RR), Dunlop, 17 laps
> 2. Aaron Yates (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -0.174 second
> 3. Blake Young (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -0.574
> 4. Robertino Pietri (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -3.029 seconds
> 5. Jason Pridmore (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -4.622
> 6. Chris Peris (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -6.017
> 7. Chris Ulrich (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -16.459
> 8. Scott Jensen (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -16.610
> 9. Geoff May (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -19.169
> 10. David Anthony (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -25.435
> 11. Ryan Elleby (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -34.248
> 12. Shane Narbonne (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -50.826

The Honda win points out something about SS, being as it's their first
ever in the class. And that is that it takes a very fast, readily
available bike out of the box, which Honda simply hasn't had - in the
750 days they chose to build SB homologation specials (RC30, RC45) that
weren't legal in SS, then twins for the WSB rules (RC51), and then
softer-edged 1000-4s once literbike became the platform. Suzuki, on the
other hand, always built fast stockers and always supported low-mod
racing as the basis of their sportbike marketing. So is there a rules
problem? Not that I can see, it comes down to OEM choices.

Now you, one the other hand, had this little exchange recently:

Jake: The sanctioning body has to decrease the cost of challenging Yosh
or increase the number of people watching the races, or else nothing
will change... Limited modifications from the production bike are the
answer here.

Tom: Well said, to the point and accurate too..

Well, SStock shows us what limited mods brings, because one bike usually
ends up best, or at least one wins out because they provide the best
support and the best contingencies. Not the answer. It's possible that
limiting to cheap, available parts is, but I have my doubts, because
that's oversimplified in people's thinking in the way that spec tires in
MotoGP is.

>> Yes, but there was a lot of change that was possible. The AMA could
>> have brought someone it who could have done the job of promoting the
>> series and tweak the rules to make it function better and improve the
>> show, but retain much more of the existing structure and tradition and
>> not just sold out to someone who is going to throw the whole thing in
>> the wood chipper, as they say in Minnesota...
>
> Again, you're missing the boat, or in this case, missed the boat. M/C
> racing in this country was broke, and broke not only in the
> dysfunctional sense, but insolvent as well.

Racing wasn't insolvent, and even the AMA may not have been in the
financial condition you always claim (the AMA has never said they were
losing money on racing, as you always say, Dingman just said they
weren't making money on it). As for broken, that's entirely in the eye
of the beholder. You do love all your generalizations, though.

To continue it had to
> improve and with any improvement always comes with change and there's
> little doubt of that simple fact.

Yeah, yeah, Mr. Trite, we've read you little change disputation over and
over...

Now, if someone feels the need to
> go-off on what could, or might have been, I suppose that's okay, but in
> doing so they tend to miss what actually DID happen, as well as what IS
> happening and that's just one of the reasons I think that type of tract
> is frivolous and a waste of time..

You're the one who's always generalizing about change here, and I'm
saying change could have meant lots of things. And the discussion in
this group has been all about what actually is happening...

> Ya'know, I get real tired repeating myself

Trust me, Tom, you're not the only one...

and who knows, maybe you're
> counting on that, but for the last time, any attempt to make these guys
> out bumpkins, racist, rednecks, or whatever is total bullshit.

Did I say that? Oh, I forgot, it's all about discrediting the
opposition, no matter the means...

If
> anything their track records suggests something 180 degrees in the
> opposite direction..

Yes, their crown jewel is a series mocked and dismissed by real race
fans the world over...

>> Yes, and that's exactly what everyone has been talking about. Most not
>> happy with a lot of what is happening, and you in orgasmic joy over it
>> all, amazingly non-analytical and non-critical.
>
> Sure, I got a little wood seeing you eat some crow and possibly will
> again if this deal works out, but beyond that and *at this time* I
> really don't have an opinion.

Oh, please.

Now, I think they've said they're going to
> address many of the ills M/C racing in this country suffers and while
> there's no reason for me to think they won't, *until they actually do*
> and I've had time to see it, I will delay any judgement and that's what
> I think is the difference between a "core fan" and others who probably
> have agenda's.

Actually, you have that exactly backwards. Almost everyone in this
discussion is talking about very specific issues, what they do and don't
like, and why. You continue to generalize about the "pain of change" and
DMG's dictatorial power and sticking it to the dreaded OEMs, and really
refuse to talk about the specifics of people's issues. And now you make
this arbitrary call on who is a real fan and who isn't.

I realize this is most likely a waste of time on you, but
> passing judgement on something you don't really know about and damn sure
> haven't seen is, at least to me, pretty f'ing dumb.

So no one should express any opinion at all until the racing is put in
front of us? What about your "not so bad now, eh?"?

Until then, I see
> this more as a who done it soap opera that ended up a high stakes poker
> game and will concentrate more on the subtleties and nuances involved,
> because at this point that's all anyone outside the real player's can
> do. Understand, I know there's a lot of folks put off so far and that's
> human nature,

Yes, it's human nature to feel something when someone starts fucking
with something you care about.

but that's also denying the fact that it was broken.

Again, that's only a fact if you believe it so. Racing was having its
problems, stemming from a bunch of things, but it wasn't totally broken.
Broken was where WSB was in 2003-04, in the sense of problems which can
be put at the doorstep of the sanctioning body, and the AMA isn't in
that state. Next year, who knows?

That
> covers the non-critical part, the non-analytitcal part is so far off I
> actually chuckled! If anything, I'm waaaay to analytical for my own
> good.....

Yet, you haven't really joined in on the discussion on specifics, other
than to spout the DMG company line on almost everything. As you continue
to do here - literbikes are too dangerous, middleweights are more
exciting, literbike is just the Suzuki Cup, etc., etc...

Re: And away we go!

On 2008-04-29 01:07:54 -0400, Mark N <menusbaum@NYETSPAMearthlink,net > said:

> T3 wrote:
>> Mark N said:
>>> It sure seems like the opinion of long-standing and dedicated fans
>>> would mean something to these guys. But if their target is
>>> mass-consumption entertainment, perhaps not. Perhaps the traditional
>>> fan base is as disposable as the factories to these guys. If so, why
>>> should we like what's going on any more than the OEMs do?
>>
>> You have to understand the OEM's position in this deal is quite
>> different from most fans, that is, the core fan base. Core fans, at
>> least the one's I and most likely DMG considers core fans, are taking
>> the wait and see attitude.
>
> Well, I would concede that fans in your area probably feel good about
> the local boys taking over, and that this means Daytona stays on the
> calendar forever and will be the centerpiece in the series. Beyond
> that, I don't see it. The small sample that is the NG is running
> strongly against them. That Soup pole, which is the closest thing to a
> measure of what fans think that I've seen, was overwhelmingly against
> them.

My area? Your "provincialness" is showing, again too. But what some
poll means is, well, nothing, beyond the web hits generated anyway..
>
> When you, or someone else proclaims they've
>> spent their last dollar going to races without even seeing the rule
>> book, much less waiting to go to one sorta' cut themselves out of that
>> herd and in some cases that reveals they had agenda's just like the
>> OEMs, at least to me..
>
> Of course it would to you. So what magic is the rulebook going to
> reveal? We already know they're going to make middleweights (at least
> Japanese ones) the premier class, we know that a huge amount of track
> time will be taken up with a twins endurance class, we know they're
> going to run some sort of spec class, we know that they're going to try
> to balance traditional middleweight sportbikes with a number of other
> bigger twins, we know they're going to use control tires, we know
> they're going to require all parts to be readily available and
> affordable, we know they're going to use pace cars and rolling starts,
> etc. How is the rulebook going to change any of that materially?

Dude, I've heard people say their going to do this, or that and when
the time comes what they said wasn't anything close to what they
actually did. Do I think these guys are serious? Yes I do, but things
can change and that's ONE reason I'm cautious. Neither one of us know
for sure if they aren't just floating some shit, or playing one OEM off
on the other and I can't imagine this not being a very fluid type thing
right now, so why get your panties in a wad? Unless of course you have
an agenda contrary to just business as usual and it's obvious you do..


>
>>> I think all the discussion in this NG has been about what has been
>>> going in, and in a very detailed level. I haven't seen anyone "jumping
>>> up and down cryin'".
>>
>> For Christ's sake, calling them racist? Dude, the only color these guys
>> are partial to is green and they don't give a tinker's dam the color of
>> who sends it their way!!
>
> Who called the DMG guys racists? Not me. All I said is that I believe
> it's likely that the recent success of Nascar is owed in part to the
> role race plays in sports entertainment choices, and that these guys
> know that and react accordingly - making Moto-ST largely a Eurobike
> class and rejecting the OEMs (which essentially means the Japanese
> OEMs), and we may well see more of that in the way that they balance
> the machines in DSB when they do get around to making the rules. And
> that IS all about making money.

Um, you did and in your usual backhanded way too. Although I'd have
much more respect for someone who just comes right out and said it
versus innuendo, but I understand that's how you communicate, or at
least attempt to.
Money? Of course it's about making money, just as it is right now
today, so what's your point?

>
>>> Seems like I saw some pretty good racing this weekend, definitely worth
>>> the trip to SoCal. But maybe I was just mistaken, nostalgic tears
>>> clouding my vision...
>>
>> I don't know what you saw as you've effectively and very publicly
>> removed yourself from the real fan base.
>
> Oh, so anyone who doesn't take a neutral, wait-and-see attitude about
> this isn't a real fan? So what about folks who have reacted with things
> like, "racing's commin' home folks" and "we own it!" and "not so bad
> now, huh?" (after the classes were announced)? Oh, that's right, you'd
> consider that "wait and see"...

M/C racing is coming home and they do own it, what's that have to do
about waiting and seeing?
>
> If SB is still the premiere
>> class I saw little more than a Suzuki commercial that started to take
>> shape at Barber, but now looks complete. The last few years the only
>> drama was for 3rd place anyway,
>
> Oh, you didn't notice a little something called Mladin vs. Spies last
> year that came down to a last race winner-take-all and a championship
> decided by a single point?
>
> now that looks to be settled too
>
> I guess you didn't notice that Tommy has had a bit of a fight to get
> that last spot on the box the last few races and the largest margin
> he's had over 4th is under four seconds.

Oh puhleeze, there hasn't been a SB race in what, 3 years that the
first and second place weren't pre-determined and a forgone conclusion,
now barring injury to Hayden it would appear the box is complete too.
I'm not saying Yosh cheats, or anything like that, I am saying it SUKS
to know who's going to win before anyone even shows up, it suks for the
riders, but it really suks for the show. To say the disparity in SB is
glaring is an understatement! Today's SB as the premiere class in this
country leaves a lot to be desired, a whole lot..
>
> and if
>> anyone say's they saw a good SB race they musta' been looking a
>> something different than I was..
>>
>> \1. Ben Spies (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, 28 laps
>> 2. Mat Mladin (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -0.011-second
>> 3. Tommy Hayden (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -31.328 seconds
>> 4. Neil Hodgson (Hon CBR1000RR), Dunlop, -34.392
>> 5. Jason DiSalvo (Yam YZF-R1), Dunlop, -37.523
>> 6. Eric Bostrom (Yam YZF-R1), Dunlop, -46.212
>> 7. Jamie Hacking (Kaw ZX-10R), Dunlop, -67.094
>> 8. Scott Jensen (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -1 lap *
>> 9. Matt Lynn (Hon CBR1000RR), Dunlop, -1 lap, 27.793 seconds
>> 10. Dean Mizdal (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -2 laps
>
>> That pretty much says it all..
>
> What does it say? That Spies and Mladin are head-and-shoulders above
> everyone else? Yeah, probably, but is that a rules problem? Tell me
> that you believe they are no better than Hodgson and DiSalvo, tell me
> that you think Tommy is worse than them, tell me that you think the
> current rules are designed to give Suzuki an advantage, tell me that
> Suzuki's commitment to SB racing here isn't part of it.

I'm not prepared to go as far to say they're head and shoulders better
than everyone, but I can easily say Suzuki is outspending everyone and
has for quite some time too. Oh, and by the way, they do so to make the
money you seem to disdain..
>
>> SSport and FX was another deal and "oddly enough" where DMG is focusing..
>
> Let's see, there were five races this weekend and four of them were
> decided by less than 0.2 seconds, two running middleweights and two
> running literbikes. Yes, the two middleweight races had three guys
> around to almost the end (including two teammates in each) and SB only
> had two, but SStock had four (five?). Whatever. It sure seems like your
> love affair for middleweights started the day you finally accepted that
> it was DIS who was responsible for bumping SB out of the 200 for FX and
> not the AMA. Now what did you say after the Dingman-Edmundson love
> affair at Daytona? "SB returns to the 200? You betcha'!"? I guess you
> knew it was "Daytona" SBs all along, eh? Because, as you know, there
> are only one or two tracks in this country that are safe for
> contemporary literbikes...


The "races," that is, the one's not pre-determined were almost
exclusively in the middleweight classes, that Corona and Holden did
well in SStock only adds promise to DMG's vision, as far as I see
anyway.
As far as tracks go, there is only one, or two and that's with today's
SB, if recent history says anything they'll outgrow them soon too.
Look, we aren't Europe and we don't have all those good tracks that's a
fact you seem to conveniently ignore, we do have a few marginal ones
that could be much better, but unless there's a financial reason to
invest the money needed to make them better and safer that's not going
to happen and why should it? Track owners like money, that's why, and
though they're not afraid to spend some to make some they have to be
fairly sure they'll be able to attract people first and SB racing isn't
going to do that for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, there's
no chance for anyone not under an OEM umbrella to do anything but run
around a lap, or so down. Now, maybe you like to see that, but track
owners do not, so until you get a bundle of bucks and go build a few,
someone has to deal with it. I think it's called reality and you might
want to check it out sometime..
Dude, if I had my way there'd be 10, 0r 12 tracks like Road America
spread evenly around the country and all would be finished like Barber,
but you know what? There's probably more chance me winning the lotto as
anything remotely like that happening, ever. Again, it's reality..

>
>> SStock,(aka Gixxr cup) beyond Holden, who really cares? Suzuki, that's who!
>
>> 1. Jake Holden (Hon CBR1000RR), Dunlop, 17 laps
>> 2. Aaron Yates (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -0.174 second
>> 3. Blake Young (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -0.574
>> 4. Robertino Pietri (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -3.029 seconds
>> 5. Jason Pridmore (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -4.622
>> 6. Chris Peris (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -6.017
>> 7. Chris Ulrich (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -16.459
>> 8. Scott Jensen (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -16.610
>> 9. Geoff May (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -19.169
>> 10. David Anthony (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -25.435
>> 11. Ryan Elleby (Suz GSX-R1000), Pirelli, -34.248
>> 12. Shane Narbonne (Suz GSX-R1000), Dunlop, -50.826
>
> The Honda win points out something about SS, being as it's their first
> ever in the class. And that is that it takes a very fast, readily
> available bike out of the box, which Honda simply hasn't had - in the
> 750 days they chose to build SB homologation specials (RC30, RC45) that
> weren't legal in SS, then twins for the WSB rules (RC51), and then
> softer-edged 1000-4s once literbike became the platform. Suzuki, on the
> other hand, always built fast stockers and always supported low-mod
> racing as the basis of their sportbike marketing. So is there a rules
> problem? Not that I can see, it comes down to OEM choices.

As long as that choice is Suzuki? Though I do find your very recent
warming to SStock curiously amusing..
>
> Now you, one the other hand, had this little exchange recently:
>
> Jake: The sanctioning body has to decrease the cost of challenging Yosh
> or increase the number of people watching the races, or else nothing
> will change... Limited modifications from the production bike are the
> answer here.
>
> Tom: Well said, to the point and accurate too..

That's just one way I feel that SOME of the OEM advantages can be
lessened, but that's just my opinion and we both know what body part
that represents..
>
> Well, SStock shows us what limited mods brings, because one bike
> usually ends up best, or at least one wins out because they provide the
> best support and the best contingencies. Not the answer. It's possible
> that limiting to cheap, available parts is, but I have my doubts,
> because that's oversimplified in people's thinking in the way that spec
> tires in MotoGP is.

Suzuki bought another class and whether it happened thru contingency's,
the lack of real competition, or whatever doesn't really matter at this
point, does it? That they did, or were able to should say something
about the health and direction of the series, don't you think? I damn
sure do! And pluhleeze don't take that as a swipe at Yosh, or 'Zuki,
I'd say the same thing if it was Duc, Yam, Honda, or hell, prolly even
Harley.
What I'm getting at here is why I feel reducing the OEM's footprint is
a pre-requesite for any expansion of the sport and without expansion
there's very little, or no hope of improvement...

>
>>> Yes, but there was a lot of change that was possible. The AMA could
>>> have brought someone it who could have done the job of promoting the
>>> series and tweak the rules to make it function better and improve the
>>> show, but retain much more of the existing structure and tradition and
>>> not just sold out to someone who is going to throw the whole thing in
>>> the wood chipper, as they say in Minnesota...
>>
>> Again, you're missing the boat, or in this case, missed the boat. M/C
>> racing in this country was broke, and broke not only in the
>> dysfunctional sense, but insolvent as well.
>
> Racing wasn't insolvent, and even the AMA may not have been in the
> financial condition you always claim (the AMA has never said they were
> losing money on racing, as you always say, Dingman just said they
> weren't making money on it). As for broken, that's entirely in the eye
> of the beholder. You do love all your generalizations, though.

Hmm, let me ponder the "not making" any to the "making" some for about
.000001 secs, ok? All right, now I'm with ya', damn that was a tough
one!
I dunno what kind of business you may know, but if one's not making any
they're what? Just floating, or something like that? You either make
it, or you don't and when you don't you lose money, it's that fucking
simple and you're brand of revisionist history won't change it. Setting
up Proracing was sold to the rank and file as a money maker for the
good of all, just turn out to be something quite the contrary is pretty
much what happened and that's all I have to say, politely anyway,
besides, they're old news..
>
> To continue it had to
>> improve and with any improvement always comes with change and there's
>> little doubt of that simple fact.
>
> Yeah, yeah, Mr. Trite, we've read you little change disputation over
> and over...
>
> Now, if someone feels the need to
>> go-off on what could, or might have been, I suppose that's okay, but in
>> doing so they tend to miss what actually DID happen, as well as what IS
>> happening and that's just one of the reasons I think that type of tract
>> is frivolous and a waste of time..
>
> You're the one who's always generalizing about change here, and I'm
> saying change could have meant lots of things. And the discussion in
> this group has been all about what actually is happening...

The fact of the matter is you're to busy trying to put any and all
things you don't like down and most times you miss a lot doing so. You
seem to think your thoughts better than any and when someone, anyone
challenges, or disagrees, well, as they say, the shit hits the fan.
That's why I view you kinda childish, as you can't seem to grasp the
concept that yours is just yours, no better, or worse than any others..
>
>> Ya'know, I get real tired repeating myself
>
> Trust me, Tom, you're not the only one...

Well then, maybe you shoul

Re: And away we go!

On 2008-04-29 15:00:20 -0400, T3 <notme@nowhere,net > said:

>>
>> Of course it would to you. So what magic is the rulebook going to
>> reveal? We already know they're going to make middleweights (at least
>> Japanese ones) the premier class, we know that a huge amount of track
>> time will be taken up with a twins endurance class, we know they're
>> going to run some sort of spec class, we know that they're going to try
>> to balance traditional middleweight sportbikes with a number of other
>> bigger twins, we know they're going to use control tires, we know
>> they're going to require all parts to be readily available and
>> affordable, we know they're going to use pace cars and rolling starts,
>> etc. How is the rulebook going to change any of that materially?
>
> Dude, I've heard people say their going to do this, or that and when
> the time comes what they said wasn't anything close to what they
> actually did. Do I think these guys are serious? Yes I do, but things
> can change and that's ONE reason I'm cautious. Neither one of us know
> for sure if they aren't just floating some shit, or playing one OEM off
> on the other and I can't imagine this not being a very fluid type thing
> right now, so why get your panties in a wad? Unless of course you have
> an agenda contrary to just business as usual and it's obvious you do..
>
>

Well lookie here, whaditellya'?
http :// www .cyclenews,com /ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=12210

Now, did the OEM's blink after finally realizing they'd boxed
themselves in and are trying to wiggle, or just now realizing a
big-time game is afoot? Hard to say at present, maybe it was all, or
possibly none of the above, but if I had to guess I'd think the cold
hard facts of the economy might have had a little to do with it. With
DMG bringing their people in and Edmundson getting some insulation it's
probably going to get even more difficult to tell what's really
happening, so pay close attention to the next few moves, as I can see a
possible end game in the making and not just a settlement either, but
most likely the way DMG really wanted things to begin with, but we'll
see and I'd imagine, fairly soon too...

Re: And away we go!

T3 wrote:
> On 2008-04-29 15:00:20 -0400, T3 <notme@nowhere,net > said:
>
>>>
>>> Of course it would to you. So what magic is the rulebook going to
>>> reveal? We already know they're going to make middleweights (at least
>>> Japanese ones) the premier class, we know that a huge amount of track
>>> time will be taken up with a twins endurance class, we know they're
>>> going to run some sort of spec class, we know that they're going to
>>> try to balance traditional middleweight sportbikes with a number of
>>> other bigger twins, we know they're going to use control tires, we
>>> know they're going to require all parts to be readily available and
>>> affordable, we know they're going to use pace cars and rolling
>>> starts, etc. How is the rulebook going to change any of that materially?
>>
>> Dude, I've heard people say their going to do this, or that and when
>> the time comes what they said wasn't anything close to what they
>> actually did. Do I think these guys are serious? Yes I do, but things
>> can change and that's ONE reason I'm cautious. Neither one of us know
>> for sure if they aren't just floating some shit, or playing one OEM
>> off on the other and I can't imagine this not being a very fluid type
>> thing right now, so why get your panties in a wad? Unless of course
>> you have an agenda contrary to just business as usual and it's obvious
>> you do..
>>
>>
>
> Well lookie here, whaditellya'?
> http :// www .cyclenews,com /ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=12210
>
> Now, did the OEM's blink after finally realizing they'd boxed themselves
> in and are trying to wiggle, or just now realizing a big-time game is
> afoot? Hard to say at present, maybe it was all, or possibly none of the
> above, but if I had to guess I'd think the cold hard facts of the
> economy might have had a little to do with it. With DMG bringing their
> people in and Edmundson getting some insulation it's probably going to
> get even more difficult to tell what's really happening, so pay close
> attention to the next few moves, as I can see a possible end game in the
> making and not just a settlement either, but most likely the way DMG
> really wanted things to begin with, but we'll see and I'd imagine,
> fairly soon too...
>

How did the OEM box themselves in? They wanted to Superbike rules, so
DMG says - OK, but you have to field 4 bikes. Currently none of the
direct factory teams do that - so it was a big jump for most, they
then say hey - we can't afford that. So DMG gets what they want (killing
off the real superbikes) but does it in a way that it looks like it was
the OEMs choice.

Bruce

Re: And away we go!

On 2008-04-30 10:48:38 -0400, Bruce Hartweg <bruce-news@hartweg.us> said:

> T3 wrote:
>> On 2008-04-29 15:00:20 -0400, T3 <notme@nowhere,net > said:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Of course it would to you. So what magic is the rulebook going to
>>>> reveal? We already know they're going to make middleweights (at least
>>>> Japanese ones) the premier class, we know that a huge amount of track
>>>> time will be taken up with a twins endurance class, we know they're
>>>> going to run some sort of spec class, we know that they're going to try
>>>> to balance traditional middleweight sportbikes with a number of other
>>>> bigger twins, we know they're going to use control tires, we know
>>>> they're going to require all parts to be readily available and
>>>> affordable, we know they're going to use pace cars and rolling starts,
>>>> etc. How is the rulebook going to change any of that materially?
>>>
>>> Dude, I've heard people say their going to do this, or that and when
>>> the time comes what they said wasn't anything close to what they
>>> actually did. Do I think these guys are serious? Yes I do, but things
>>> can change and that's ONE reason I'm cautious. Neither one of us know
>>> for sure if they aren't just floating some shit, or playing one OEM off
>>> on the other and I can't imagine this not being a very fluid type thing
>>> right now, so why get your panties in a wad? Unless of course you have
>>> an agenda contrary to just business as usual and it's obvious you do..
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Well lookie here, whaditellya'?
>> http :// www .cyclenews,com /ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=12210
>>
>> Now, did the OEM's blink after finally realizing they'd boxed
>> themselves in and are trying to wiggle, or just now realizing a
>> big-time game is afoot? Hard to say at present, maybe it was all, or
>> possibly none of the above, but if I had to guess I'd think the cold
>> hard facts of the economy might have had a little to do with it. With
>> DMG bringing their people in and Edmundson getting some insulation it's
>> probably going to get even more difficult to tell what's really
>> happening, so pay close attention to the next few moves, as I can see a
>> possible end game in the making and not just a settlement either, but
>> most likely the way DMG really wanted things to begin with, but we'll
>> see and I'd imagine, fairly soon too...
>>
>
> How did the OEM box themselves in? They wanted to Superbike rules, so
> DMG says - OK, but you have to field 4 bikes. Currently none of the
> direct factory teams do that - so it was a big jump for most, they
> then say hey - we can't afford that. So DMG gets what they want (killing
> off the real superbikes) but does it in a way that it looks like it was
> the OEMs choice.
>
> Bruce

Ayup, pretty much and maybe..
If I understand it correctly, and believe me there's still some things
that remain unclear, Edmundson had already publicly dealt some cards, a
mostly stock Litre bike and his DSB vision and it looks like that might
have thrown the Jap's off their game a little. They really wanted, or,
in Yosh's case, demanded adherence with the previously agreed to '09,
'10 rules and while at the time it might have appeared he blinked, or
relented, maybe the, "you want it so bad, then you fully fund it" bone
he threw them had a hook hidden, and possibly a well thought out one
too. If they work out some SStock-like litre bike deal, it saves the
Jap's face, as well half-way guaranteeing their presence in the paddock
for a couple of years while DMG gets their sea legs and I'd imagine
those years will be spent building DSB too, then if it works out, or
the Jap's ass-up and leave, oh well. Though, at this time, I still
doubt that will happen, but I also believe this is going to be a fairly
fluid thing for some time to come and wouldn't bet on it..
I guess a lot of what I had been saying was "somehow" skewed to me
being all for this new deal, but beyond jabbing your buddy it really
wasn't. Though what I said before hasn't changed one bit, the old ways
of dealing with AMA racing are past, this is far from these new guys
first bar-b-cue and they know how to deal with OEM's and have been
doing so fairly successfully for a long time. That's also why I think
most all the big issues will be settled in board rooms and not so much
by racing chiefs, because in the rarified air of nine zero's and three
commas that's pretty much how it goes...

Re: And away we go!

Bruce Hartweg wrote:
> T3 wrote:
> > T3 said:
>>> MarkN said:
> >>> Of course it would to you. So what magic is the rulebook going to
> >>> reveal? We already know they're going to make middleweights (at least
> >>> Japanese ones) the premier class, we know that a huge amount of track
> >>> time will be taken up with a twins endurance class, we know they're
> >>> going to run some sort of spec class, we know that they're going to
> >>> try to balance traditional middleweight sportbikes with a number of
> >>> other bigger twins, we know they're going to use control tires, we
> >>> know they're going to require all parts to be readily available and
> >>> affordable, we know they're going to use pace cars and rolling
> >>> starts, etc. How is the rulebook going to change any of that materially?
>
> >> Dude, I've heard people say their going to do this, or that and when
> >> the time comes what they said wasn't anything close to what they
> >> actually did. Do I think these guys are serious? Yes I do, but things
> >> can change and that's ONE reason I'm cautious. Neither one of us know
> >> for sure if they aren't just floating some shit, or playing one OEM
> >> off on the other and I can't imagine this not being a very fluid type
> >> thing right now, so why get your panties in a wad? Unless of course
> >> you have an agenda contrary to just business as usual and it's obvious
> >> you do..
>
> > Well lookie here, whaditellya'?
> > http :// www .cyclenews,com /ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=12210

Yeah, what did you tell me, beyond some non-specific generalization? Did
they announce any specific rules? Did any of the specific things I
mentioned above change? I think anyone familiar with the situation
regarding Literbike knew that pretty much had to change, it wasn't
intended to be workable in the way DMG proposed it, it was designed to
put the factories in an impossible situation.

> > Now, did the OEM's blink after finally realizing they'd boxed themselves
> > in and are trying to wiggle, or just now realizing a big-time game is
> > afoot? Hard to say at present, maybe it was all, or possibly none of the
> > above, but if I had to guess I'd think the cold hard facts of the
> > economy might have had a little to do with it. With DMG bringing their
> > people in and Edmundson getting some insulation it's probably going to
> > get even more difficult to tell what's really happening, so pay close
> > attention to the next few moves, as I can see a possible end game in the
> > making and not just a settlement either, but most likely the way DMG
> > really wanted things to begin with, but we'll see and I'd imagine,
> > fairly soon too...
>
> How did the OEM box themselves in? They wanted to Superbike rules, so
> DMG says - OK, but you have to field 4 bikes. Currently none of the
> direct factory teams do that - so it was a big jump for most, they
> then say hey - we can't afford that. So DMG gets what they want (killing
> off the real superbikes) but does it in a way that it looks like it was
> the OEMs choice.

More specifically, I I think this is the way it's played out and will
continue to play out:

1) DMG wants to run and will run a middlweweight-based feature class,
mostly because they know SBs will never again run in the Daytona 200,
easily the most-important race to them. They also see the potential
equipment for that class as an advantage over literbikes, but the safety
thing is mostly a red herring, a dodge for justification - the only real
safety issue is Daytona.This all is evidenced with the tire problems on
1000s, the desired switch to 600SS and the compromise to run FX in the
200. Totally obvious.

2) DMG didn't want to run 1000s at all, because in any trim they will be
faster than the middleweights, and it's a problem to have a support
class that is faster than the premier class.

3) The OEMs seriously parted company with them over not running 1000s,
that was a make-or-break deal. They didn't have to be SBs, although the
OEMs were unlikely to have conceded that SB would not be the premier
class at that point.

4) DMG responded by giving them back their SB, but only as a support
class and with additional requirements (4-6 bikes each) that made it
more expensive than ever and unacceptably restrictive.

5) The OEMs' reaction now is predictable, they want to ratchet back
toward SStock, because there is no way that they're going to run very
expensive bikes with very expensive riders in a support class. A
non-starter.

My guess would be that this is far from settled, and if I had to guess
it would be that it will end up with Literbike as Superstock. The OEMs
will get to run their 1000s, but they will be far cheaper and slower
than SBs, which is what DMG would want. DMG isn't going to get what they
really want, which is no 1000s at all, but that would likely cost them
all OEM support in the series. Where that matters to them is in their
DSB class, and this compromise would likely result in all of the
factories getting directly involved in DSB, and with their best riders.
This is exactly what Hartung and I talked about on Sunday at Fontana,
probably the best immediate solution for this series in the way that DMG
has generally outlined it. Not necessarily the best thing for *real*
racing, of course.

I think the other shoe that might drop could be the reinstitution of
SSport, but only after this DSB-LB stuff is settled. DMG doesn't want it
now, because they have seen how SSport has stymied the development of FX
in the current series and don't want to give anyone an alternative to
DSB for 600s (meaning mostly the factories). But there is a huge hole in
the support structure of NASBike right now, with only part-time Moto-ST
endurance and a vague specialty class beyond LB. If they don't go the
spec bike route (that would line their pockets just like spec tires and
fuel will, which is their real bottom line) because they can't get any
one OEM to foot the bill, then they may make SSport a further concession
to existing racing structure, but only for guys with class 2 and 3
licenses - LB may also end up excluding class 1, to keep the fastest
guys out. Anyway, a possibility.

In any case, the OEMs are just trying to get to some tolerable point in
this whole mess, enough that they can hold their noses and keep racing.
DMG ideally would like them gone altogether, but recognize that they
can't afford to throw out almost all the money that supports racing at
this level in this country. And they will only concede enough to keep
them in, but not enough to make them truly happy.

Once the support classes are in place, the next point of conflict will
be the specifics of the DSB rules - how much will DMG penalize 600-4s in
order to achieve the balance they want? I suspect we'll see more
head-butting when we get to that, once DMG announces things like very
restrictive parts, low horsepower maximums, 400-pound or higher bike
minimum weights, etc., etc. - what will it take to make Brian Parriott
on a San Jose BMW competitive with Mat Mladin on a Yosh Suzuki 600? It's
almost an absurd question. That I think is where we might see the OEMs'
breaking point.

Re: And away we go!

T3 <notme@nowhere,net > Wed, 30 Apr 2008 10:16:46
>Well lookie here, whaditellya'?
> http :// www .cyclenews,com /ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=12210
>
>Now, did the OEM's blink after finally realizing they'd boxed
>themselves in and are trying to wiggle, or just now realizing a
>big-time game is afoot?

Supersports (WSS/BSB-SS not AMA Supersports) spec engines in SBK chassis
on a spec tyre? You mean just like BSB this year? Surely not.

--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar,com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: http :// www .ecademy,com / T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: http :// www .voidstar,com / skype:julian.bond?chat
Serve Chilled

Re: And away we go!

On 2008-04-30 11:21:32 -0400, Julian Bond <julian_bond@voidstar,com > said:

> T3 <notme@nowhere,net > Wed, 30 Apr 2008 10:16:46
>> Well lookie here, whaditellya'?
>> http :// www .cyclenews,com /ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=12210
>>
>> Now, did the OEM's blink after finally realizing they'd boxed
>> themselves in and are trying to wiggle, or just now realizing a
>> big-time game is afoot?
>
> Supersports (WSS/BSB-SS not AMA Supersports) spec engines in SBK
> chassis on a spec tyre? You mean just like BSB this year? Surely not.

I still want to see something in print, *BUT* if I understand it
correctly, besides maybe the spec fuel, rolling starts and radio's
bling it's beginning sound pretty much like BSB and "maybe" just what
DMG had in mind from the outset too. Now, down the road a ways, who
f'ing knows, but at present it looks like they're beginning to play
ball, though exactly who and how long they stay in the game remains to
be seen...

Re: And away we go!

T3 wrote:
> Mark N said:

>> Of course it would to you. So what magic is the rulebook going to
>> reveal? We already know they're going to make middleweights (at least
>> Japanese ones) the premier class, we know that a huge amount of track
>> time will be taken up with a twins endurance class, we know they're
>> going to run some sort of spec class, we know that they're going to
>> try to balance traditional middleweight sportbikes with a number of
>> other bigger twins, we know they're going to use control tires, we
>> know they're going to require all parts to be readily available and
>> affordable, we know they're going to use pace cars and rolling starts,
>> etc. How is the rulebook going to change any of that materially?
>
> Dude, I've heard people say their going to do this, or that and when the
> time comes what they said wasn't anything close to what they actually
> did.

But your reaction to what they did say on specifics was, "not so bad
now, eh?". So what did you like, what didn't you like, what do you think
they'll change? It's seems clear that you're all for dumping literbikes,
running longer races with pit stops and pace cars, dumbing down the
bikes, limiting or eliminating "unobtainium", etc. I know you've said
you're not entirely sold on control tires, but that's about all I can
recall that's contrary to what they're doing.

> Do I think these guys are serious? Yes I do, but things can change
> and that's ONE reason I'm cautious. Neither one of us know for sure if
> they aren't just floating some shit, or playing one OEM off on the other
> and I can't imagine this not being a very fluid type thing right now, so
> why get your panties in a wad?

So your position is that it doesn't matter at all what they are saying
they're going to do, the only judgment call that should be made is on
how competent they are, how successful they've been elsewhere, just
ignore all the details?

>Unless of course you have an agenda
> contrary to just business as usual and it's obvious you do..

So what's my agenda then, Tom?

>> Oh, you didn't notice a little something called Mladin vs. Spies last
>> year that came down to a last race winner-take-all and a championship
>> decided by a single point?

>> I guess you didn't notice that Tommy has had a bit of a fight to get
>> that last spot on the box the last few races and the largest margin
>> he's had over 4th is under four seconds.
>
> Oh puhleeze, there hasn't been a SB race in what, 3 years that the first
> and second place weren't pre-determined and a forgone conclusion, now
> barring injury to Hayden it would appear the box is complete too. I'm
> not saying Yosh cheats, or anything like that, I am saying it SUKS to
> know who's going to win before anyone even shows up, it suks for the
> riders, but it really suks for the show. To say the disparity in SB is
> glaring is an understatement! Today's SB as the premiere class in this
> country leaves a lot to be desired, a whole lot..

Here are a couple things you've said in the past:

12/8/03:
"Three years out, what do I see?
AMA- Spec tires, very little factory involvement...
BSB- Ditto
WSB- Will there be one? Possibly, if so, along same lines as AMA and
BSB, maybe with a "little" more factory involvement.
I just don't see the factory's having the money to subsidize all these
series. It's evident now that the factory's have a love affair with
MOTOGP that I doubt is going to change to much. That and the fact that
there isn't enough money to finance all the series, changes are coming..."

4/26/05:
"Yoshimera are the people who develop racing endeavors for Suzuki, from
quads to Superbikes and everything in between. As far as the GSX goes,
they have been developing them for 20(?) years or so. As far as the
current model, Mladin has been quoted several times of late, saying how
happy he is that they produced a bike with Yosh's concerns and the (AMA)
rulebook in mind. I think what we're seeing is the result of long and
careful development by Yosh and coupled with teams reluctance to pay for
Honda's factory leased SB's this year, it makes them look all that much
better than everyone else. Yam and Kaw all but quit developing SB's a
few years ago and it now looks as if they're both leaning towards a
symbiotic relationship in SB racing too. In the end, it's probably more
"blowback" from all the money being spent on MGP and because of Yosh,
Suz was able to continue working on the GSX, while other's SB programs
suffered. Troy is one of the greats, Crescent and Alstare may be good
teams too, but I don't think they have contributed much, equipment wise,
to the process of making this years Gixxer so wickedly dominate..."


So I think it's pretty clear that you believe Suzuki's success here is
the fruit of long-term commitment to the class and having the same guys
providing feedback on the bikes for over a decade, no matter what you
think of their current riders (and I have a hard time believing you
don't think Mladin and Spies are as good as anyone in the class, if not
the very best). On the other hand, Honda chose not to buy the HRC
support (which may not have been worth the money given their WSB
withdrawal), and now have chosen to employ rather elderly name riders
rather than potentially faster guys who they can build around, Yamaha in
Japan chose to spend on MotoGP and Rossi and here on low-budget SS
racing, Kawi joined them in that approach, and Ducati won't race here
unless they are granted the Italian Advantage. So Suzuki has earned
their position, which is what racing and sport is all about, having the
talent and working hard to be the best. Not their fault that the others
haven't done quite the same.

Beyond that, you're into penalizing success, making the racing
artificially closer by assisting the people who can't otherwise keep up.
Manufactured competitiveness, which is what the Nascar guys are all
about. What you seem to want is a pack of bikes fighting for the lead on
the last lap of every race - Nascar on bikes. Me, I don't want to pay
the price for that, which is knowing that for the rules some or most of
those guys wouldn't even be there.

>> What does it say? That Spies and Mladin are head-and-shoulders above
>> everyone else? Yeah, probably, but is that a rules problem? Tell me
>> that you believe they are no better than Hodgson and DiSalvo, tell me
>> that you think Tommy is worse than them, tell me that you think the
>> current rules are designed to give Suzuki an advantage, tell me that
>> Suzuki's commitment to SB racing here isn't part of it.
>
> I'm not prepared to go as far to say they're head and shoulders better
> than everyone, but I can easily say Suzuki is outspending everyone and
> has for quite some time too.

Don't try to play it off as just spending more money. Even if they have,
and I think they have, they have earned it, it's not just that all that
money has resulted in superior technology, like in F1. And elimination
of the OEMs won't mean everyone's on an equal footing, there will still
be the haves and the have nots, winning and losing will still largely
come down to cubic dollars, as always.

> Oh, and by the way, they do so to make the
> money you seem to disdain..

You have that backwards, Tom, you're the one who disdains OEMs using
racing to promote the sale of their products. Me, I have no problem with
that at all.

>> Let's see, there were five races this weekend and four of them were
>> decided by less than 0.2 seconds, two running middleweights and two
>> running literbikes. Yes, the two middleweight races had three guys
>> around to almost the end (including two teammates in each) and SB only
>> had two, but SStock had four (five?). Whatever. It sure seems like
>> your love affair for middleweights started the day you finally
>> accepted that it was DIS who was responsible for bumping SB out of the
>> 200 for FX and not the AMA. Now what did you say after the
>> Dingman-Edmundson love affair at Daytona? "SB returns to the 200? You
>> betcha'!"? I guess you knew it was "Daytona" SBs all along, eh?
>> Because, as you know, there are only one or two tracks in this country
>> that are safe for contemporary literbikes...
>
> The "races," that is, the one's not pre-determined were almost
> exclusively in the middleweight classes,

Oh come on. If you asked knowledgeable people who they thought would win
the SSport race at Fontana, I'm sure a significant majority would have
said one of the Graves Yamaha riders, and if you asked about FX, an even
greater majority would have said one of the Erion Honda riders. It's not
quite the same as in SB, but I think it's pretty clear who the leading
factory/team/riders are in the two middleweight classes.

> that Corona and Holden did well
> in SStock only adds promise to DMG's vision, as far as I see anyway.

Huh? What the f*ck are you talking about?

> As far as tracks go, there is only one, or two and that's with today's
> SB, if recent history says anything they'll outgrow them soon too. Look,
> we aren't Europe and we don't have all those good tracks that's a fact
> you seem to conveniently ignore, we do have a few marginal ones that
> could be much better, but unless there's a financial reason to invest
> the money needed to make them better and safer that's not going to
> happen and why should it? Track owners like money, that's why, and
> though they're not afraid to spend some to make some they have to be
> fairly sure they'll be able to attract people first and SB racing isn't
> going to do that for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, there's
> no chance for anyone not under an OEM umbrella to do anything but run
> around a lap, or so down. Now, maybe you like to see that, but track
> owners do not, so until you get a bundle of bucks and go build a few,
> someone has to deal with it. I think it's called reality and you might
> want to check it out sometime..
> Dude, if I had my way there'd be 10, 0r 12 tracks like Road America
> spread evenly around the country and all would be finished like Barber,
> but you know what? There's probably more chance me winning the lotto as
> anything remotely like that happening, ever. Again, it's reality..

So Elkhart is okay, Barber is okay, and then you have to add in Laguna
and Miller, which are the only two FIM-homologated tracks in the US. On
the other end of the scale is Daytona, of course, and then Sears (but
the most improved track in the series), Road Atlanta (which is having
it's biggest problem, the worst single corner in the series, fixed this
year) and Mid-Ohio. It's a rather crappy bowl circuit, but I don't see
anything at Fontana that looks all that dangerous, and VIR isn't a big
problem, is it? And next year New Jersey will likely come on line, which
will be a safe circuit.

Beyond that, you'd have to believe that middleweights are significantly
safer than literbikes because they are significantly slower, and I don't
believe that's true, I think that's as much of a red herring as MotoGP
800s being significantly safer than 990s. I don't think you can say
1000s are simply too unsafe at Mid-Ohio but 600s are fine there, it's
really just about the same.

>> The Honda win points out something about SS, being as it's their first
>> ever in the class. And that is that it takes a very fast, readily
>> available bike out of the box, which Honda simply hasn't had - in the
>> 750 days they chose to build SB homologation specials (RC30, RC45)
>> that weren't legal in SS, then twins for the WSB rules (RC51), and
>> then softer-edged 1000-4s once literbike became the platform. Suzuki,
>> on the other hand, always built fast stockers and always supported
>> low-mod racing as the basis of their sportbike marketing. So is there
>> a rules problem? Not that I can see, it comes down to OEM choices.
>
> As long as that choice is Suzuki?

The choice has been made by the OEMs themselves, do they want to support
grass-roots and SS racing in the design of their sportbikes or not?
Suzuki is at one end of that scale and Honda is at the other, that's
just the way it is. People will race what brings them results and is
most economical. This year Honda actually built a 1000 that is lighter
than the others, and now they actually won a SStock race - is that a
surprise?

And I find it funny that you are so obsessed with what brand of bike is
doing the winning here, given that one thing you tout repeatedly about
DMG is their desire to make the racing about the riders and teams and
not the factories. Yet you are obsessed with the machines these guys are
on, and why should it matter if all the guys running closely at the
front in non-factory SStock are on Suzukis? It show that you, like most
bike racing fans I would guess, are focused on the machines as much as
the riders, which runs contrary to this rider-focused intention. Bike
racing fans care about the bikes and brand matters, that's what I think.

> Though I do find your very recent
> warming to SStock curiously amusing..

Huh, what's amusing? I have said repeatedly I didn't agree with the AMA
eliminating SStock. I thought it should be switched to 1000s long before
the AMA actually did that, I thought it helped fill out the SB grid and
gives riders experience on bigger, more powerful bikers, also gives
larger, heavier riders a place to race, and I didn't think four classes
were too many. The one thing I didn't really like in that class was
slicks, not necessary, but that was a Daytona-driven rule of course.

>> Well, SStock shows us what limited mods brings, because one bike
>> usually ends up best, or at least one wins out because they provide
>> the best support and the best contingencies. Not the answer. It's
>> possible that limiting to cheap, available parts is, but I have my
>> doubts, because that's oversimplified in people's thinking in the way
>> that spec tires in MotoGP is.
>
> Suzuki bought another class and whether it happened thru contingency's,
> the lack of real competition, or whatever doesn't really matter at this
> point, does it? That they did, or were able to should say something
> about the health and direction of the series, don't you think?

No, I don't. You want to subtly paint this as Suzuki paying off the AMA
behind closed doors so they could dominate or whatever, but that's just
bullshit. Suzuki wins because they want to win more than the others,
because they support racing. Under any set of rules the guys who are
most committed and most talented and have the financial resources will win.

I damn
> sure do! And pluhleeze don't take that as a swipe at Yosh, or 'Zuki, I'd
> say the same thing if it was Duc, Yam, Honda, or hell, prolly even Harley.
> What I'm getting at here is why I feel reducing the OEM's footprint is a
> pre-requesite for any expansion of the sport and without expansion
> there's very little, or no hope of improvement...

And you never present a logical, reasoned explanation of why. You say
they want to keep racing small, but that makes absolutely no sense. You
jump on the Jordan "unobtainium" bandwagon with both feet (well, one,
anyway), but I think that's mostly bullshit, if Mike applied the same
resources to racing as Yosh does he could win like they do, there's
nothing in the rules to prevent it. The King of Privateers Roberts says
the factories are the problem in racing, exactly what you'd expect from
a guy who has been getting his ass whipped for over a decade, and you're
all over that as well. But I doubt you even understand why.

>> Racing wasn't insolvent, and even the AMA may not have been in the
>> financial condition you alw

Re: And away we go!

T3 wrote:

>>
>> sounds a little bit like defending it.
>
> No more than me saying gravity will bring my lazyass to the ground if I
> fall, it just is and as such I deal with it. All this pissin' and
> moanin' over what the future will be, or what you, or I may like is
> irrelevant,

exactkly, just as irrevelant as it was when the AMA Procracing folks were
running it, and you didn't exactly "deal with it" you pissed and moaned
all the time.

This is a discussion group about racing. I doubt that anyone here thinks
there opinions matter a hill of beans to the folks who actually runt things
in any of the series, just having discussions.

When I hear the DMG guys were the ones, I said it could be interesting,
they have the bucks and clout to make things happen, and new regimes are
always easier to make changes, but I stated I was worried they go to far
and in my eyes not make it racing as I like it. But I started with an
open mind. The more I see/hear the more my initial fears are being realized.
They have a plan that is out of phase with me ( and much of the current
fan base) so teh might be sucessful in financial terms in creating and
entirely different product, but it will prbably hold very little interest
for me watching it.

The way it looks to me is they had a new MC series all planned out, the had
already started the MotoST series, and were obviously planning the DSB thing
and were gonna try to grow a competing series to what AMA had. But then the
AMA gave them th oportunity to avoid competition for eyes/riders/tracks/etc
bye selling them the AMA series - at which point they ditched everything
about it and rebranded ther stuff as AMA racing - even though t has absolutley
nothing to do with an AMA racing ever run, or pretty much any other racing series
in the world - oh well. Maybe this will mean more of an influx of US ruiders
into WorldSBK looking to race for real.

Or maybe the Flaminis can try something - start a FIM sanctioned series called
USSBK - run exact same rules as WorldSBK but as a US series - overlap a few dates
with WorldSBK - some US Riders could have wild card entries in those races as the
rules would be the same. It would be easier for Factory involvement as the rules
would be the same.

Bruce


Bruce

Re: And away we go!

On 2008-04-28 10:08:35 -0400, Bruce Hartweg <bruce-news@hartweg.us> said:

> T3 wrote:
>
>>>
>>> sounds a little bit like defending it.
>>
>> No more than me saying gravity will bring my lazyass to the ground if I
>> fall, it just is and as such I deal with it. All this pissin' and
>> moanin' over what the future will be, or what you, or I may like is
>> irrelevant,
>
> exactkly, just as irrevelant as it was when the AMA Procracing folks were
> running it, and you didn't exactly "deal with it" you pissed and moaned
> all the time.

I pointed out their shortcomings and how I felt they were screwing
things up, and correct me if I'm wrong, not only was I right, but DMG
hasn't really done anything yet. Trust me on this, I'm an equal
opportunity bitcher if there ever was one, but I know it's best to wait
until something is done first. As far as the old Proracing goes, I
think they had a few very good ideas, unfortunately and evidently those
ran counter to some of the OEM's desires and ultimately got
marginalized, or bastardized to the point they were meaningless, but
that was then, and this is now and one thing I try hard not to do is
focus on the past. That Proracing is dead and gone, RIP..

>
> This is a discussion group about racing. I doubt that anyone here thinks
> there opinions matter a hill of beans to the folks who actually runt things
> in any of the series, just having discussions.

Heh, I wouldn't go that far..

>
> When I hear the DMG guys were the ones, I said it could be interesting,
> they have the bucks and clout to make things happen, and new regimes are
> always easier to make changes, but I stated I was worried they go to far
> and in my eyes not make it racing as I like it. But I started with an
> open mind. The more I see/hear the more my initial fears are being realized.
> They have a plan that is out of phase with me ( and much of the current
> fan base) so teh might be sucessful in financial terms in creating and
> entirely different product, but it will prbably hold very little interest
> for me watching it.

Bruce, I understand that you don't have to experience jumping off the
roof to know you won't like it when you reach the ground, but this is a
little different, don't you think? *IF* these guys do as they say, and
there's no reason at this time for me to think otherwise, M/C racing in
this country is going to change in a huge way and passing judgement on
what it will, or may look like is more projecting than anything else,
at least to me and that's far from an endorsement..

>
> The way it looks to me is they had a new MC series all planned out, the had
> already started the MotoST series, and were obviously planning the DSB thing
> and were gonna try to grow a competing series to what AMA had. But then the
> AMA gave them th oportunity to avoid competition for eyes/riders/tracks/etc
> bye selling them the AMA series - at which point they ditched everything
> about it and rebranded ther stuff as AMA racing - even though t has absolutley
> nothing to do with an AMA racing ever run, or pretty much any other
> racing series
> in the world - oh well. Maybe this will mean more of an influx of US ruiders
> into WorldSBK looking to race for real.

Ok, now you're talkin', yes, it seems they did have a plan and for some
time too, but I wonder how much they *invested* in that plan beyond
just talking about it and there's where I see some drama, or possibly
even breach of trust, or collusion. Was the Dinger brought in just for
that reason and who on the board was involved? I dunno' and probably
never will, but I'd sure like to..

I wouldn't go as far to say they don't care about what happens
elsewhere, but going by their past business model it's prolly safe to
say they see it as a national series as it's own end and if Nascar, or
Grand AM say anything, it screams just that. So, if anyone expected to
see this new deal as some sort of primer for WSBK, or MGP, well, I
dunno for sure, but I'm thinkin' they might be disappointed..

Racer's like to race, but trust me on this, the like to get paid too
and they'll race pretty much where that happens. The question is, or
might be, is that gonna happen here?

I think you have to look at their past actions to even get a murky
picture of what might be, because a lot of what they've done might not
transfer to bikes??? Well, from what I've heard that was pretty much
what the Sports Car guys said too, at first anyway, now they say
something a "little" different, so, for me at least, it's best to wait..

One things for certain, this ain't over by any stretch of the
imagination, or is it? I dunno for sure, but it kinda looks like
they've put some of the Jap OEM's in a box on the SB deal. Did the
economy have something to do with it? Did DMG, at the last minute
relent, or was it part of a well thought out plan? These are some of
the things I find fascinating and in leu of any DSB racing right now
and what really else is there to consider?

Most all the crap you read is just that too, as I believe the real
decisions will (or maybe already have) happen on Speedway Blvd, in
board rooms of the OEM's, corporate sponsors and banks, not by racing
chiefs who might see their dynasty disappearing, so I take take those
with a grain of salt too..



>
> Or maybe the Flaminis can try something - start a FIM sanctioned series called
> USSBK - run exact same rules as WorldSBK but as a US series - overlap a
> few dates
> with WorldSBK - some US Riders could have wild card entries in those
> races as the
> rules would be the same. It would be easier for Factory involvement as
> the rules
> would be the same.

Dream on...

On another note, I was off last week fine tuning the new leg and
supposedly painting some rooms at, ahem, "request." The former has
worked out pretty well so far, but the latter has "suffered" mostly
because I hate to fucking paint, but if I know what's good for me I
better get my lazyass busy, so don't expect a reply until she says I'm
finished..

Btw, did anyone here get their *economic stimulus buck$*? A pleasant
$600 surprise this morning to say the least, though I have no idea what
I can buy to actually stimulate anything other than maybe China's
economy, as we don't really make anything here anymore! Oh well,
there's always MC and Exxon...

Re: And away we go!


"T3" <notme@nowhere,net > wrote in message
news:481629db$0$7702$4c368faf@roadrunner,com ...

> On another note, I was off last week fine tuning the new leg and
> supposedly painting some rooms at, ahem, "request." The former has worked
> out pretty well so far, but the latter has "suffered" mostly because I
> hate to fucking paint, but if I know what's good for me I better get my
> lazyass busy, so don't expect a reply until she says I'm finished..
>
> Btw, did anyone here get their *economic stimulus buck$*? A pleasant $600
> surprise this morning to say the least, though I have no idea what I can
> buy to actually stimulate anything other than maybe China's economy, as we
> don't really make anything here anymore! Oh well, there's always MC and
> Exxon...

Pay somebody to do the painting for you.

Re: And away we go!

On 2008-04-28 18:45:35 -0400, "Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox,net > said:

>
> "T3" <notme@nowhere,net > wrote in message
> news:481629db$0$7702$4c368faf@roadrunner,com ...
>
>> On another note, I was off last week fine tuning the new leg and
>> supposedly painting some rooms at, ahem, "request." The former has
>> worked out pretty well so far, but the latter has "suffered" mostly
>> because I hate to fucking paint, but if I know what's good for me I
>> better get my lazyass busy, so don't expect a reply until she says I'm
>> finished..
>>
>> Btw, did anyone here get their *economic stimulus buck$*? A pleasant
>> $600 surprise this morning to say the least, though I have no idea what
>> I can buy to actually stimulate anything other than maybe China's
>> economy, as we don't really make anything here anymore! Oh well,
>> there's always MC and Exxon...
>
> Pay somebody to do the painting for you.

Supper break;

My very first thought, but nooooo, we're doing a ben wa, boo hoo, or
pheng shui deal(you pic) and it's best done by us, or so I'm directed
to believe. Hmm, I wonder if that means I get to replace the carpet I
just fucked-up too!