Why is it so hard to find neutral?

Why is it so hard to find neutral?

When shifting from 2nd into neutral, it usually ends up in 1st. Then
when going from 1st into neutral, it ends up in 2nd. It seems that no
matter how gentle I try to shift, it goes right past neutral. Why is
this and what can I do to rectify the problem?
I'm using 10-40 oil and just got the oil replaced, so i don't suppose
it's slipping due to bad oil.

The bike is a 83 Kawi GPz305 with 23,000 km that I'm restoring. Aside
from this problem all gears seems to shift OK, although the clutch is
nearing its end but still has some life left. Since this is a bike for
the wife to learn to ride on, this is sure to prove to be a problem
for her. Even I have a tough time finding neutral when coming to a
stop, so I can just imagine the difficulty and frustration she'll have
while learning to ride the thing. On a side note (and I'm not sure if
this is relevant or just how the bike was designed) it doesn't shift
into 2nd while stopped. It shifts fine when moving but never while the
rear wheel isn't moving.

If this is an easy fix (the neutral issue), can someone please post
detailed instructions on what needs to be done? I have a service
manual that I can refer to, if the work isn't too complicated and is
something I can do on my own.
Thanks

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

Eat Dirt wrote:
> When shifting from 2nd into neutral, it usually ends up in 1st. Then
> when going from 1st into neutral, it ends up in 2nd. It seems that no
> matter how gentle I try to shift, it goes right past neutral. Why is
> this and what can I do to rectify the problem?
> I'm using 10-40 oil and just got the oil replaced, so i don't suppose
> it's slipping due to bad oil.
>
> The bike is a 83 Kawi GPz305 with 23,000 km that I'm restoring. Aside
> from this problem all gears seems to shift OK, although the clutch is
> nearing its end but still has some life left. Since this is a bike for
> the wife to learn to ride on, this is sure to prove to be a problem
> for her. Even I have a tough time finding neutral when coming to a
> stop, so I can just imagine the difficulty and frustration she'll have
> while learning to ride the thing. On a side note (and I'm not sure if
> this is relevant or just how the bike was designed) it doesn't shift
> into 2nd while stopped. It shifts fine when moving but never while the
> rear wheel isn't moving.

This is a feature most Kawasakis have, called "Positive Neutral Finder".

I really don't think there is anything wrong with the bike. Some bikes
are just finicky about getting into neutral.

Why is it important to you to shift into neutral while the bike is
moving, anyway? Shift into 1st as you are coming to a stop, and once
you are stopped, use the PNF feature to get into neutral if you need
to. Normally when you are stopped you should leave the bike in 1st
gear, so you can can take off quickly if you see a car in your mirrors
just about to crush you...

--
'01 SV650SK1 '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13
OMF #7

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

On Apr 24, 4:57 am, Mark Olson <ols...@tiny.invalid> wrote:

> This is a feature most Kawasakis have, called "Positive Neutral Finder".

Oh, so that's what that is. I find it incredible that this feature had
been implemented some 25 years ago or longer. Truly amazing. Yeah,
since that's the case I'm convinced that there is nothing wrong with
my tranny, now that I understand what it's doing. What you describe
makes absolute sense as it fits exactly with what my bike is doing.

The best part is, the wife gets to learn the proper way, which will
also facilitate things for her. It is my bad riding habit that prompts
me to go into neutral before coming to a stop. A habit that the wife
won't inherit thanks to this feature. This is my first Kawi, so the
concept was unknown to me, although I have heard of it.

Say what you will about Kawasaki. When it comes to sport bikes I find
that there are only two serious players, Kawi and Suzuki. It seems to
me that these are the most innovative, aggressive players and the
others are conservative, follow the leader. Your opinion may differ,
of course.

Thanks for the clarification. I get to sleep in peace now.

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?


"Mark Olson" <olsonm@tiny.invalid> wrote in message
news:O4ydnTrdSpgq-o3VnZ2dnUVZ_sCtnZ2d@visi...
> to. Normally when you are stopped you should leave the bike in 1st
> gear, so you can can take off quickly if you see a car in your mirrors
> just about to crush you...
>
A safer stop is to be in first gear, 2 feet down equally [ so you dont waste
any time 'righting' the motorcycle ]
and turn around and look behind you.
Mirrors are not enough.
Turn and look makes eye contact with the driver behind, it establishes you
are real and watching their actions behind you.
Mirrors dont do that.

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

cbx dreamers wrote:
> "Mark Olson" <olsonm@tiny.invalid> wrote in message
> news:O4ydnTrdSpgq-o3VnZ2dnUVZ_sCtnZ2d@visi...
>
>>to. Normally when you are stopped you should leave the bike in 1st
>>gear, so you can can take off quickly if you see a car in your mirrors
>>just about to crush you...

> A safer stop is to be in first gear, 2 feet down equally [ so you dont waste
> any time 'righting' the motorcycle ]
> and turn around and look behind you.
> Mirrors are not enough.
> Turn and look makes eye contact with the driver behind, it establishes you
> are real and watching their actions behind you.
> Mirrors dont do that.

You are deluded if you think eye contact can be established with a drunk
who is hurtling toward you at 70 mph. Even sober drivers have looked me
in the eye and proceeded to drive straight at me forcing me off the road.
Protecting yourself in the manner I described doesn't depend on whether
the other driver sees you or not, much less whether eye contact is
established.

--
'01 SV650SK1 '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13
OMF #7

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

On Apr 24, 12:59 pm, Mark Olson <ols...@tiny.invalid> wrote:
> cbx dreamers wrote:
> > "Mark Olson" <ols...@tiny.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:O4ydnTrdSpgq-o3VnZ2dnUVZ sCtnZ2d@visi...
>
> >>to. Normally when you are stopped you should leave the bike in 1st
> >>gear, so you can can take off quickly if you see a car in your mirrors
> >>just about to crush you...
> > A safer stop is to be in first gear, 2 feet down equally [ so you dont waste
> > any time 'righting' the motorcycle ]
> > and turn around and look behind you.
> > Mirrors are not enough.
> > Turn and look makes eye contact with the driver behind, it establishes you
> > are real and watching their actions behind you.
> > Mirrors dont do that.
>
> You are deluded if you think eye contact can be established with a drunk
> who is hurtling toward you at 70 mph. Even sober drivers have looked me
> in the eye and proceeded to drive straight at me forcing me off the road.
> Protecting yourself in the manner I described doesn't depend on whether
> the other driver sees you or not, much less whether eye contact is
> established.
>
> --
> '01 SV650SK1 '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13
> OMF #7

Yup.

Gotta always be ready to cut and run.

Horns, eye contact, reflective vests, flashing LED brake lights, and
all the rest can help a little, but always be ready to cut and run.
That is a rider's greatest strength for road safety.

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

cbx dreamers <norideswe@yahoo . com .tw> wrote:
>
> and turn around and look behind you.
> Mirrors are not enough.
> Turn and look makes eye contact with the driver behind, it establishes you
> are real and watching their actions behind you.

I've heard someone say this before, and I just don't agree. First,
bad things can come at you from in front of you, or from any other direction.
Using the mirrors allows me to scan all around the bike, not just concentrate
on what is behind me. Also, I'm ready to get going - no need to turn around.
It could also become a distraction to a driver who just might target
fixate on you wondering WTF you are staring at him. In a city, it might
get you shot for staring like "you gotta problem wit me?". And, if you do
need to get out of the way, you have no idea what your escape route would be
because you have no idea what the situation in front of you is.

- Kurt

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:52:10 -0700, "cbx dreamers" <norideswe@yahoo . com .tw>
wrote:

>
>"Mark Olson" <olsonm@tiny.invalid> wrote in message
>news:O4ydnTrdSpgq-o3VnZ2dnUVZ_sCtnZ2d@visi...
>> to. Normally when you are stopped you should leave the bike in 1st
>> gear, so you can can take off quickly if you see a car in your mirrors
>> just about to crush you...
>>
>A safer stop is to be in first gear, 2 feet down equally [ so you dont waste
>any time 'righting' the motorcycle ]
>and turn around and look behind you.
>Mirrors are not enough.
>Turn and look makes eye contact with the driver behind, it establishes you
>are real and watching their actions behind you.
>Mirrors dont do that.
>

Very good advice, but could I offer that instead of two feet, you'll find
you have a system that works in more settings by putting your left foot
down. At extremely slow speeds, you'll be using the friction zone and
dragging the rear brake and by not disengaging from that brake, you're able
to transition between a fully committed stop and the very slow motion
regimes. On any sort of an incline, you'll be able to hold the bike in
place while stopped as well. Police instructors teach this method because
of the versatility it offers. Of course too, as one stops, you need to
leave room for a quick departure without a lot of turning in case the car
behind you comes in too hot.

Mike


--
Mike W.
96 XR400
99 KZ1000P
70 CT70
71 KG 100 (Hodaka-powered)

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

Eat Dirt wrote:
> When shifting from 2nd into neutral, it usually ends up in 1st. Then
> when going from 1st into neutral, it ends up in 2nd. It seems that no
> matter how gentle I try to shift, it goes right past neutral. Why is
> this and what can I do to rectify the problem?
> I'm using 10-40 oil and just got the oil replaced, so i don't suppose
> it's slipping due to bad oil.
>
> The bike is a 83 Kawi GPz305 with 23,000 km that I'm restoring. Aside
> from this problem all gears seems to shift OK, although the clutch is
> nearing its end but still has some life left. Since this is a bike for
> the wife to learn to ride on, this is sure to prove to be a problem
> for her. Even I have a tough time finding neutral when coming to a
> stop, so I can just imagine the difficulty and frustration she'll have
> while learning to ride the thing. On a side note (and I'm not sure if
> this is relevant or just how the bike was designed) it doesn't shift
> into 2nd while stopped. It shifts fine when moving but never while the
> rear wheel isn't moving.
>
> If this is an easy fix (the neutral issue), can someone please post
> detailed instructions on what needs to be done? I have a service
> manual that I can refer to, if the work isn't too complicated and is
> something I can do on my own.
> Thanks

Because there is no neutral stop. You have to pull from 1st and stop
half way between 1st and 2nd. It's a pisser sometimes. It's the mickey
mouse part of a bike. They should have put neutral at the bottom, then
1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th. It would be easy to go all the way
down and up one at a stop light for 1st.



--
Blattus Slafaly ? 3 :) 7/8

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:25:03 -0400, "Blattus Slafaly ? (3) ¼
:)" <boobooililililil@roadrunner . com > wrote:

>Eat Dirt wrote:
>> When shifting from 2nd into neutral, it usually ends up in 1st. Then
>> when going from 1st into neutral, it ends up in 2nd. It seems that no
>> matter how gentle I try to shift, it goes right past neutral. Why is
>> this and what can I do to rectify the problem?
>> I'm using 10-40 oil and just got the oil replaced, so i don't suppose
>> it's slipping due to bad oil.
>>
>> The bike is a 83 Kawi GPz305 with 23,000 km that I'm restoring. Aside
>> from this problem all gears seems to shift OK, although the clutch is
>> nearing its end but still has some life left. Since this is a bike for
>> the wife to learn to ride on, this is sure to prove to be a problem
>> for her. Even I have a tough time finding neutral when coming to a
>> stop, so I can just imagine the difficulty and frustration she'll have
>> while learning to ride the thing. On a side note (and I'm not sure if
>> this is relevant or just how the bike was designed) it doesn't shift
>> into 2nd while stopped. It shifts fine when moving but never while the
>> rear wheel isn't moving.
>>
>> If this is an easy fix (the neutral issue), can someone please post
>> detailed instructions on what needs to be done? I have a service
>> manual that I can refer to, if the work isn't too complicated and is
>> something I can do on my own.
>> Thanks
>
>Because there is no neutral stop. You have to pull from 1st and stop
>half way between 1st and 2nd. It's a pisser sometimes. It's the mickey
>mouse part of a bike. They should have put neutral at the bottom, then
>1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th. It would be easy to go all the way
>down and up one at a stop light for 1st.


There is no neutral at the bottom to keep you from
accidentally being in neutral as you are slowing or braking
in the vent you need to accelerate quickly. If the bike is
moving, it should pretty much always be "in gear". If the
neutral is at the bottom, you would always have to be
counting shifts to be sure it is in gear. This may be a
problem if you are distracted by the efforts to save your
ass at the moment. If the Kaw is shifting down from second
to first, it is as it should be. If it does not stop in
neutral when shifting up from first with the bike stopped,
it probably has a problem with the shifter detent. Key word
here is "stopped". If the bike is rolling at all, it will
upshift to second. In other word, it will not go into
neutral if the wheels are moving - it must be completely
stopped. If it is not working correctly it may be as simple
as a weak detent spring. Don't know about the 305 but, most
Kaws I have seen, you have to remove the sprocket cover, the
sprocket and the trans cover to get at the shifting
mechanism to see what is going on. Some aspects of the
shifting mechanism are adjustable in some manner. In any
case, the Kaw should not overshift into second if the bike
is stopped.

Lugnut

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

lugnut wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:25:03 -0400, "Blattus Slafaly ? (3) ¼
> :)" <boobooililililil@roadrunner . com > wrote:
>
>> Eat Dirt wrote:
>>> When shifting from 2nd into neutral, it usually ends up in 1st. Then
>>> when going from 1st into neutral, it ends up in 2nd. It seems that no
>>> matter how gentle I try to shift, it goes right past neutral. Why is
>>> this and what can I do to rectify the problem?
>>> I'm using 10-40 oil and just got the oil replaced, so i don't suppose
>>> it's slipping due to bad oil.
>>>
>>> The bike is a 83 Kawi GPz305 with 23,000 km that I'm restoring. Aside
>>> from this problem all gears seems to shift OK, although the clutch is
>>> nearing its end but still has some life left. Since this is a bike for
>>> the wife to learn to ride on, this is sure to prove to be a problem
>>> for her. Even I have a tough time finding neutral when coming to a
>>> stop, so I can just imagine the difficulty and frustration she'll have
>>> while learning to ride the thing. On a side note (and I'm not sure if
>>> this is relevant or just how the bike was designed) it doesn't shift
>>> into 2nd while stopped. It shifts fine when moving but never while the
>>> rear wheel isn't moving.
>>>
>>> If this is an easy fix (the neutral issue), can someone please post
>>> detailed instructions on what needs to be done? I have a service
>>> manual that I can refer to, if the work isn't too complicated and is
>>> something I can do on my own.
>>> Thanks
>> Because there is no neutral stop. You have to pull from 1st and stop
>> half way between 1st and 2nd. It's a pisser sometimes. It's the mickey
>> mouse part of a bike. They should have put neutral at the bottom, then
>> 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th. It would be easy to go all the way
>> down and up one at a stop light for 1st.
>
>
> There is no neutral at the bottom to keep you from
> accidentally being in neutral as you are slowing or braking
> in the vent you need to accelerate quickly. If the bike is
> moving, it should pretty much always be "in gear". If the
> neutral is at the bottom, you would always have to be
> counting shifts to be sure it is in gear. This may be a
> problem if you are distracted by the efforts to save your
> ass at the moment. If the Kaw is shifting down from second
> to first, it is as it should be. If it does not stop in
> neutral when shifting up from first with the bike stopped,
> it probably has a problem with the shifter detent. Key word
> here is "stopped". If the bike is rolling at all, it will
> upshift to second. In other word, it will not go into
> neutral if the wheels are moving - it must be completely
> stopped. If it is not working correctly it may be as simple
> as a weak detent spring. Don't know about the 305 but, most
> Kaws I have seen, you have to remove the sprocket cover, the
> sprocket and the trans cover to get at the shifting
> mechanism to see what is going on. Some aspects of the
> shifting mechanism are adjustable in some manner. In any
> case, the Kaw should not overshift into second if the bike
> is stopped.
>
> Lugnut

Ridiculous, your not counting shifts now? They could just have it not
go into neutral while moving even if it was at the bottom. Somebody was
just thinking "car' when they invented it. Car neural is between 1st and
2nd in a car. Indian had a stick shift too. I would prefer it at the
bottom. That's why we keep getting the same fucked up politicians,
nobody wants to change.


--
Blattus Slafaly ? ? :) ?

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

"Blattus Slafaly ? ? ? :)" <boobooililililil@roadrunner . com > wrote:

> Ridiculous, your not counting shifts now? They could just have it not
> go into neutral while moving even if it was at the bottom. Somebody was
> just thinking "car' when they invented it. Car neural is between 1st and
> 2nd in a car.

And between third and fourth, on mine. And between second and third. And
between fifth and sixth. nd between first and third. And third and
sixth. And fourth and fifth....

You're not being very bright.

>Indian had a stick shift too. I would prefer it at the
> bottom. That's why we keep getting the same fucked up politicians,
> nobody wants to change.

Wrong again. Some years ago, everyone did it differently. Brit bikes -
right foot shift. Early Laverdas - right foot shift. Jap bikes, left
foot shift, and some (Suzuki) had a shaft that allowed you to swap from
right to left. Early MV: right hand shift, one up, three down. My old
Kawasaki H1: left foot, with neutral at the bottom, as you describe. My
old Yamaha YB100: left foot shift, "all down", with neutral at the top.

Someone sensibly decided standardisation was a Good Thing.


--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F, SL125 & SH50
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
"What you're proposing to do will involve a lot of time
and hassle for no tangible benefit."

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:50:25 -0400, "Blattus Slafaly ? ? ¼
:)" <boobooililililil@roadrunner . com > wrote:

>lugnut wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:25:03 -0400, "Blattus Slafaly ? (3) ¼
>> :)" <boobooililililil@roadrunner . com > wrote:
>>
>>> Eat Dirt wrote:
>>>> When shifting from 2nd into neutral, it usually ends up in 1st. Then
>>>> when going from 1st into neutral, it ends up in 2nd. It seems that no
>>>> matter how gentle I try to shift, it goes right past neutral. Why is
>>>> this and what can I do to rectify the problem?
>>>> I'm using 10-40 oil and just got the oil replaced, so i don't suppose
>>>> it's slipping due to bad oil.
>>>>
>>>> The bike is a 83 Kawi GPz305 with 23,000 km that I'm restoring. Aside
>>>> from this problem all gears seems to shift OK, although the clutch is
>>>> nearing its end but still has some life left. Since this is a bike for
>>>> the wife to learn to ride on, this is sure to prove to be a problem
>>>> for her. Even I have a tough time finding neutral when coming to a
>>>> stop, so I can just imagine the difficulty and frustration she'll have
>>>> while learning to ride the thing. On a side note (and I'm not sure if
>>>> this is relevant or just how the bike was designed) it doesn't shift
>>>> into 2nd while stopped. It shifts fine when moving but never while the
>>>> rear wheel isn't moving.
>>>>
>>>> If this is an easy fix (the neutral issue), can someone please post
>>>> detailed instructions on what needs to be done? I have a service
>>>> manual that I can refer to, if the work isn't too complicated and is
>>>> something I can do on my own.
>>>> Thanks
>>> Because there is no neutral stop. You have to pull from 1st and stop
>>> half way between 1st and 2nd. It's a pisser sometimes. It's the mickey
>>> mouse part of a bike. They should have put neutral at the bottom, then
>>> 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th. It would be easy to go all the way
>>> down and up one at a stop light for 1st.
>>
>>
>> There is no neutral at the bottom to keep you from
>> accidentally being in neutral as you are slowing or braking
>> in the vent you need to accelerate quickly. If the bike is
>> moving, it should pretty much always be "in gear". If the
>> neutral is at the bottom, you would always have to be
>> counting shifts to be sure it is in gear. This may be a
>> problem if you are distracted by the efforts to save your
>> ass at the moment. If the Kaw is shifting down from second
>> to first, it is as it should be. If it does not stop in
>> neutral when shifting up from first with the bike stopped,
>> it probably has a problem with the shifter detent. Key word
>> here is "stopped". If the bike is rolling at all, it will
>> upshift to second. In other word, it will not go into
>> neutral if the wheels are moving - it must be completely
>> stopped. If it is not working correctly it may be as simple
>> as a weak detent spring. Don't know about the 305 but, most
>> Kaws I have seen, you have to remove the sprocket cover, the
>> sprocket and the trans cover to get at the shifting
>> mechanism to see what is going on. Some aspects of the
>> shifting mechanism are adjustable in some manner. In any
>> case, the Kaw should not overshift into second if the bike
>> is stopped.
>>
>> Lugnut
>
>Ridiculous, your not counting shifts now? They could just have it not
>go into neutral while moving even if it was at the bottom. Somebody was
>just thinking "car' when they invented it. Car neural is between 1st and
>2nd in a car. Indian had a stick shift too. I would prefer it at the
>bottom. That's why we keep getting the same fucked up politicians,
>nobody wants to change.


Some of us have driven vehicles other than bikes. I've
driven vehicles with as many as 30 forward speeds and 3
separate shift levers ot use them. Whether you like it or
not, you will in some way keep track of your gear positions
or screw a 10K transmission.

As far as the shift pattern goes, it was developed with
input from numerous sources from around the world including
bike riders and racers, the manufacturing industry, the SAE
and many others. Politicians had little to do with
developing the bike standards other than facilitating the
regulatory aspects of it. Thanks to the "standard" you can
move from almost any bike to another and know exactly where
the basic controls are and how they work which goes a long
ways toward promoting safe operation of the machines. When
the change was made, there was a lot of bickering from old
school bikers including myself protesting the change to what
we perceived to be a Japanese way of doing things. At the
time and for some time later, I was a fan of and owned
several Triumphs of various vintage and configuration. I
think as it turned out, they were just ahead of the curve at
the time. I clearly remember my first couple of trips on a
bike with the current standards like downshifting when I
really wanted to brake or braking when I downshifted. Some
habit just die slowly. Now, It doesn't really matter to me
what bike I get on, it is not a problem. As far as the
Indian suicide shift, that is what my '47 Indian Chief had
on it along with a hand spark control and foot clutch and no
throttle return spring (early form of cruise control). I
love some of the old bikes as much as the next but, the new
bikes are light years ahead of them in almost every aspect.
Much of this is due to the "standards" enabling many more
riders safely operate the machines and go from one to
another easily.

Lastly, we keep getting the same f**cked up politicians
because noone can see anything wrong with their own
politician. It's always the one from some other district
that is the problem. I say put'em all on the street and
let's start over. At least we'll spread the pork out a
little bit!!

Lugnut

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:50:25 -0400, "Blattus Slafaly ? ? ¼ :)"
<boobooililililil@roadrunner . com > wrote:

>
>Ridiculous, your not counting shifts now? They could just have it not
>go into neutral while moving even if it was at the bottom. Somebody was
>just thinking "car' when they invented it. Car neural is between 1st and
>2nd in a car. Indian had a stick shift too. I would prefer it at the
>bottom. That's why we keep getting the same fucked up politicians,
>nobody wants to change.

One situation where the counting method breaks down significantly is the
emergency stop. You have a lot to manage, like traction, and as you stop
and pump the shifter toward lower gears, it would be trivial to lose count.
When I was riding (seemingly a past tense) and working police skills, I
drilled on emergency stops on every single ride. I found during the few too
many real emergency stops I've made that even extreme muscle memory did not
give me (and perhaps this is only me) any intellectual bandwidth to process
anything at these times. You want to land in first when you stop and be
ready to ride out of the event if it has not completed unfolding by the
time you scrub most of your speed.

Mike


--
Mike W.
96 XR400
99 KZ1000P
70 CT70
71 KG 100 (Hodaka-powered)

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

Blattus Slafaly ? (3) ¼ :) wrote:

> They should have put neutral at the bottom

If so then it would be more time-consuming, sometimes in a critical
riding situation when every millisecond counts, to find 1st when
downshifting.

SQ