Mutant Nipponese Fasteners

Mutant Nipponese Fasteners



Bike - '87 CBR600, 20k mi.
Item - Brace of 4 Keihin carbs

Please to reference pic on top/left:

http :// farm4.static.flickr,com /3126/2515045092_754fd14937_m.jpg

Hopefully you can see the intake shroud and 2 mutant phillips screws
(connected by a strip of sheet metal) per each of 4 carbs.

Such phillips screws won't break. Even with Liquid Wrench and a
mechanical impact driver.

Such phillips screws are soft metal, and efforts to remove them tend
to strip the phillips slots.

Such phillips screws shouldn't exist in this application. Bolts might
have been appropriate.

What can one do with such garbage?

Thx,
Puddin'

" ... and the bees made honey in the lion's head."
- from "If I Had My Way", Blind Willie Johnson

Re: Mutant Nipponese Fasteners

On May 22, 4:12=EF=BF=BDpm, Puddin' Man <puddingDOT...@gmail,com > wrote:
> Bike - '87 CBR600, 20k mi.

> Such phillips screws won't break. Even with Liquid Wrench and a
> mechanical impact driver.

Perhaps they were installed using Loctite at the factory. Have you
tried heating the screws with a torch?

Don't set your bike on fire doing that...

Re: Mutant Nipponese Fasteners

Puddin' Man wrote:
>
> Bike - '87 CBR600, 20k mi.
> Item - Brace of 4 Keihin carbs
>
> Please to reference pic on top/left:
>
> http :// farm4.static.flickr,com /3126/2515045092 754fd14937 m.jpg
>
> Hopefully you can see the intake shroud and 2 mutant phillips screws
> (connected by a strip of sheet metal) per each of 4 carbs.
>
> Such phillips screws won't break. Even with Liquid Wrench and a
> mechanical impact driver.
>
> Such phillips screws are soft metal, and efforts to remove them tend
> to strip the phillips slots.
>
> Such phillips screws shouldn't exist in this application. Bolts might
> have been appropriate.
>
> What can one do with such garbage?

Use the right tool for the job. First of all, get a screwdriver
that fits perfectly. Then apply hammer blows to the end of the
screwdriver while applying torque by hand. This is exactly what
I did just last week to get recalcitrant carburetor bowl screws
loose on a V-Star 1100. You can also use an impact driver but
the mass of the driver is not a good match to the mass of the carb
assembly. Just hitting the screwdriver smartly will break loose
the corrosion between the steel screw and the aluminum that the
screw goes into.

--
'07 FJ13AW '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13
OMF #7

Re: Mutant Nipponese Fasteners

Puddin' Man wrote:
>
> Bike - '87 CBR600, 20k mi.
> Item - Brace of 4 Keihin carbs
>
> Please to reference pic on top/left:
>
> http :// farm4.static.flickr,com /3126/2515045092 754fd14937 m.jpg
>
> Hopefully you can see the intake shroud and 2 mutant phillips screws
> (connected by a strip of sheet metal) per each of 4 carbs.
>
> Such phillips screws won't break. Even with Liquid Wrench and a
> mechanical impact driver.
>
> Such phillips screws are soft metal, and efforts to remove them tend
> to strip the phillips slots.
>
> Such phillips screws shouldn't exist in this application. Bolts might
> have been appropriate.
>
> What can one do with such garbage?

I just perused through your previous thread, not sure what you're
trying to access by removing the brass screw/bracket, but you probably
won't need to.
I'll post more in your other thread.

-88 CBR600 72k miles

>
> Thx,
> Puddin'
>
> " ... and the bees made honey in the lion's head."
> - from "If I Had My Way", Blind Willie Johnson

Re: Mutant Nipponese Fasteners

red bowfire wrote:
> Puddin' Man wrote:
>>
>> Bike - '87 CBR600, 20k mi.
>> Item - Brace of 4 Keihin carbs
>>
>> Please to reference pic on top/left:
>>
>> http :// farm4.static.flickr,com /3126/2515045092 754fd14937 m.jpg
>>
>> Hopefully you can see the intake shroud and 2 mutant phillips screws
>> (connected by a strip of sheet metal) per each of 4 carbs.
>>
>> Such phillips screws won't break. Even with Liquid Wrench and a
>> mechanical impact driver.
>>
>> Such phillips screws are soft metal, and efforts to remove them tend
>> to strip the phillips slots.
>>
>> Such phillips screws shouldn't exist in this application. Bolts might
>> have been appropriate.
>>
>> What can one do with such garbage?
>
> I just perused through your previous thread, not sure what you're
> trying to access by removing the brass screw/bracket, but you probably
> won't need to.
> I'll post more in your other thread.
>
> -88 CBR600 72k miles
>
>>
>> Thx,
>> Puddin'
>>
>> " ... and the bees made honey in the lion's head."
>> - from "If I Had My Way", Blind Willie Johnson


Brass, huh? Sorry if I'm impeding this conversation, but I'd like to
know what's underneath that casting!

Re: Mutant Nipponese Fasteners

paul c wrote:
> <snip>
>
>
> Brass, huh? Sorry if I'm impeding this conversation, but I'd like to
> know what's underneath that casting!

Just the the individual carburetors. The brass screws don't connect to
anything on the other side of the casting. They just hold down the brass
bracket.
If I remember correctly, at the top inside of the air box there are
similar brass brackets. So when the air box is put back on, those brass
brackets coincide with the the brass brackets on the carburetor housing.
They formed some sort of baffle, for either noise or for keeping
crankcase oil blow-by from entering the carb intake.
There is a crankcase vent hose that connects to the lower part of the
airbox. Every once in a while i'd find a tiny buildup of oil in that
lower left hand corner of the casting.

By the way Puddin Man, just curious how your regulator to stator
connector is looking. (The center white connector/3 yellow wired). Just
curious if it's showing any signs of overheating. When my R/R goes out,
that's the point that always melts.

Re: Mutant Nipponese Fasteners

On Thu, 22 May 2008 21:51:02 -0700, red_bowfire <red_bowfire@SPAMsbcglobal,net > wrote:

>paul c wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>
>> Brass, huh? Sorry if I'm impeding this conversation, but I'd like to
>> know what's underneath that casting!
>
>Just the the individual carburetors. The brass screws don't connect to
>anything on the other side of the casting. They just hold down the brass
>bracket.

The Mutant Screws aren't brass, but they're plated with something
like brass in color.

I've been assuming that the MS's pass thru a hole in the casting
and thread into the carb bodies or somesuch. I can't see anything
else fastening the casting to the carb ass'y.

I just Liquid Wrenched one, shot it with liquid air (to freeze it,
get threads to contract), went after it with very substantial
phillips driver and a hammer. Nothing, Nada, and Zilch. Truly,
truly mutant.

> If I remember correctly, at the top inside of the air box there are
>similar brass brackets. So when the air box is put back on, those brass
>brackets coincide with the the brass brackets on the carburetor housing.
>They formed some sort of baffle, for either noise or for keeping
>crankcase oil blow-by from entering the carb intake.

Can't find such on this bike.

> There is a crankcase vent hose that connects to the lower part of the
>airbox. Every once in a while i'd find a tiny buildup of oil in that
>lower left hand corner of the casting.

2 hoses, one on each side. Just inspected: trivial amount of oil slime.

>By the way Puddin Man, just curious how your regulator to stator
>connector is looking. (The center white connector/3 yellow wired). Just
>curious if it's showing any signs of overheating. When my R/R goes out,
>that's the point that always melts.

Just inspected the 3 yellow connector in frame behind carbs. I didn't
remove the whacky connector, but I didn't see any signs of overheating
or other problem.

1987 was the 1st year for CBR600 US import if I recall. They were
"Alpha's" or "Beta's", not 100% production? There were little tiny
changes between the '87 and '88 models?

Your comments, etc are much appreciated.

Cheers,
Puddin'

" ... and the bees made honey in the lion's head."
- from "If I Had My Way", Blind Willie Johnson

Re: Mutant Nipponese Fasteners

On May 23, 10:34=EF=BF=BDam, Puddin' Man <puddingDOT...@gmail,com > wrote:

> The Mutant Screws aren't brass, but they're plated with something
> like brass in color.

Cadmium...

Re: Mutant Nipponese Fasteners

On May 23, 7:34 pm, Puddin' Man <puddingDOT...@gmail,com > wrote:
> On Thu, 22 May 2008 21:51:02 -0700, red bowfire <red bowf...@SPAMsbcglobal,net > wrote:
> >paul c wrote:
> >> <snip>
>
> >> Brass, huh? Sorry if I'm impeding this conversation, but I'd like to
> >> know what's underneath that casting!
>
> >Just the the individual carburetors. The brass screws don't connect to
> >anything on the other side of the casting. They just hold down the brass
> >bracket.
>
> The Mutant Screws aren't brass, but they're plated with something
> like brass in color.
>
> I've been assuming that the MS's pass thru a hole in the casting
> and thread into the carb bodies or somesuch. I can't see anything
> else fastening the casting to the carb ass'y.
>
> I just Liquid Wrenched one, shot it with liquid air (to freeze it,
> get threads to contract), went after it with very substantial
> phillips driver and a hammer. Nothing, Nada, and Zilch. Truly,
> truly mutant.
>
> > If I remember correctly, at the top inside of the air box there are
> >similar brass brackets. So when the air box is put back on, those brass
> >brackets coincide with the the brass brackets on the carburetor housing.
> >They formed some sort of baffle, for either noise or for keeping
> >crankcase oil blow-by from entering the carb intake.
>
> Can't find such on this bike.
>
> > There is a crankcase vent hose that connects to the lower part of the
> >airbox. Every once in a while i'd find a tiny buildup of oil in that
> >lower left hand corner of the casting.
>
> 2 hoses, one on each side. Just inspected: trivial amount of oil slime.
>
> >By the way Puddin Man, just curious how your regulator to stator
> >connector is looking. (The center white connector/3 yellow wired). Just
> >curious if it's showing any signs of overheating. When my R/R goes out,
> >that's the point that always melts.
>
> Just inspected the 3 yellow connector in frame behind carbs. I didn't
> remove the whacky connector, but I didn't see any signs of overheating
> or other problem.
>
> 1987 was the 1st year for CBR600 US import if I recall. They were
> "Alpha's" or "Beta's", not 100% production? There were little tiny
> changes between the '87 and '88 models?
>
> Your comments, etc are much appreciated.
>
> Cheers,
> Puddin'
>
> " ... and the bees made honey in the lion's head."
> - from "If I Had My Way", Blind Willie Johnson

Memories... memories...

Years ago I used a vice grip, flattened the sides of the heads, and
then tried all pliers I own on them.
I remember that half moon strip, didn't think about what function it
was
supposed to have -- I probably mistook it for a lock strip, locking
those
phillips screws--
The screws were fixed with lock tite. I probably swore loud enough
to persuade them to finally give in.
That half moon strip gave me a next problem when I reassembled
the carbs. They warped when I tried to fasten the new screws.


Rob.

Re: Mutant Nipponese Fasteners

On Sat, 24 May 2008 16:38:31 -0700 (PDT), oldgeezer <schreuderrob@yahoo,com > wrote:

>Memories... memories...
>
>Years ago I used a vice grip, flattened the sides of the heads, and
>then tried all pliers I own on them.
>I remember that half moon strip, didn't think about what function it
>was
>supposed to have -- I probably mistook it for a lock strip, locking
>those
>phillips screws--
>The screws were fixed with lock tite. I probably swore loud enough
>to persuade them to finally give in.
>That half moon strip gave me a next problem when I reassembled
>the carbs. They warped when I tried to fasten the new screws.

So I'm not the only one to wrestle with such idiot garbage.

But they actually came off after you squashed 'em with vice
grips and worked 'em with pliers?

Do the half moon strips serve any real function?

Thx,
P

" ... and the bees made honey in the lion's head."
- from "If I Had My Way", Blind Willie Johnson

Re: Mutant Nipponese Fasteners

On May 25, 5:22 am, Puddin' Man <puddingDOT...@gmail,com > wrote:
> On Sat, 24 May 2008 16:38:31 -0700 (PDT), oldgeezer <schreuder...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> >Memories... memories...
<snip>
> So I'm not the only one to wrestle with such idiot garbage.
>
> But they actually came off after you squashed 'em with vice
> grips and worked 'em with pliers?
>
> Do the half moon strips serve any real function?
> Thx,
> P

I started my previous posting with 'Memories... Memories'.
It has been so long ago that I even forgot what bike it was
and why I needed to separate the carbs.

Your picture triggered my memory, because I recognized
those half moon strips.
I remembered that I needed the vice grip to get the screws
out, there was greenish hardened plastic --I took that for
lock tite-- and that the half moons warped when I
fastened the new screws.

So all I really told you was:
"I used a vice grip to get them out"

No, I do not know what function those half moons have.
I did not think about it, because long time ago I was in
the aircraft business and strips like that were a normal
way to secure bolts. And 'naturally' I thought they were
there for that reason.
But real secure-strips had tang(s) you could fold up
on the side of a hex headed bolt. And those half moons
on the carbs had no tangs and the screw heads are
round.
So I should have given it a thought. But I didn't.

Unless you know the difference between a
Phillips and a Posidriv, read wikipedia for that.

Rob.

Re: Mutant Nipponese Fasteners

On Sun, 25 May 2008 13:05:11 -0700 (PDT), oldgeezer <schreuderrob@yahoo,com > wrote:

>On May 25, 5:22 am, Puddin' Man <puddingDOT...@gmail,com > wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 May 2008 16:38:31 -0700 (PDT), oldgeezer <schreuder...@yahoo,com > wrote:
>> >Memories... memories...
><snip>
>> So I'm not the only one to wrestle with such idiot garbage.
>>
>> But they actually came off after you squashed 'em with vice
>> grips and worked 'em with pliers?
>>
>> Do the half moon strips serve any real function?
>> Thx,
>> P
>
>I started my previous posting with 'Memories... Memories'.
>It has been so long ago that I even forgot what bike it was
>and why I needed to separate the carbs.
>
>Your picture triggered my memory, because I recognized
>those half moon strips.
>I remembered that I needed the vice grip to get the screws
>out, there was greenish hardened plastic --I took that for
>lock tite-- and that the half moons warped when I
>fastened the new screws.
>
>So all I really told you was:
> "I used a vice grip to get them out"

That's OK. It's helpful info.

I, MyOwnSelf, have tremendous difficulty recalling details of
outer-space BS. The more illogical the design, structure, etc
the faster I forget.

It just blows po' me away: why would they employ alleged super-
fasteners (or <whotever>), loc-tite, etc just to fasten a lower air
box to a brace of carbs? All manner of conventional fasteners
would've made perfectly good sense. And would've flogging come off
when necessary!

>No, I do not know what function those half moons have.
>I did not think about it, because long time ago I was in
>the aircraft business and strips like that were a normal
>way to secure bolts. And 'naturally' I thought they were
>there for that reason.
>But real secure-strips had tang(s) you could fold up
>on the side of a hex headed bolt. And those half moons
>on the carbs had no tangs and the screw heads are
>round.
>So I should have given it a thought. But I didn't.

Damned if I can see any sensible function. But I still
can't get 'em off, so ... :-)

>Unless you know the difference between a
>Phillips and a Posidriv, read wikipedia for that.

Thanks, I didn't know about Pozidriv.

I just looked. They're not Pozi. Wish they were: I've
got 8 Pozi drivers in my "drivers-for-fasteners-from-
distant-galaxies" kit.

Cheers,
P

" ... and the bees made honey in the lion's head."
- from "If I Had My Way", Blind Willie Johnson

Re: Mutant Nipponese Fasteners

On May 25, 10:05 pm, oldgeezer <schreuder...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> On May 25, 5:22 am, Puddin' Man <puddingDOT...@gmail,com > wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 24 May 2008 16:38:31 -0700 (PDT), oldgeezer <schreuder...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> > >Memories... memories...
> <snip>
> > So I'm not the only one to wrestle with such idiot garbage.
>
> > But they actually came off after you squashed 'em with vice
> > grips and worked 'em with pliers?
>
> > Do the half moon strips serve any real function?
> > Thx,
> > P
>
> I started my previous posting with 'Memories... Memories'.
> It has been so long ago that I even forgot what bike it was
> and why I needed to separate the carbs.
>
> Your picture triggered my memory, because I recognized
> those half moon strips.
> I remembered that I needed the vice grip to get the screws
> out, there was greenish hardened plastic --I took that for
> lock tite-- and that the half moons warped when I
> fastened the new screws.
>
> So all I really told you was:
> "I used a vice grip to get them out"
>
> No, I do not know what function those half moons have.
> I did not think about it, because long time ago I was in
> the aircraft business and strips like that were a normal
> way to secure bolts. And 'naturally' I thought they were
> there for that reason.
> But real secure-strips had tang(s) you could fold up
> on the side of a hex headed bolt. And those half moons
> on the carbs had no tangs and the screw heads are
> round.
> So I should have given it a thought. But I didn't.
>
> Unless you know the difference between a
> Phillips and a Posidriv, read wikipedia for that.
>
> Rob.

Ahhh. New info.

I just saw a picture in a shop manual. The screws
have hex heads (with a phillips cross, just like the
screws in your PC) and the half moon strips have
a tang on both ends that is folded up to a side of
the hex., preventing the screws to turn loose.

So I was correct. The strips function is to secure
the screws.
But you and I both had round phillips heads,
thus something must be wrong.
Either:
We both worked on a bike that had been worked
on by somebody who broke off the tangs and
replaced the screws. Without tangs he did no
longer need hex heads, but needed loctite,
or:
keihin-san ran out of hex screws in 1987 and
just thought: okay, we'll use round heads and
loctite until we get a new batch of hex screws.
I know that things like that happen in a production
factory. I myself signed waivers for changes
in production like that.
Could well be that you and I worked on the
same batch of Keihins.

Rob.

Rob.

Re: Mutant Nipponese Fasteners

On Sun, 25 May 2008 15:20:30 -0700 (PDT), oldgeezer <schreuderrob@yahoo,com > wrote:

>
>Ahhh. New info.
>
>I just saw a picture in a shop manual. The screws
>have hex heads (with a phillips cross, just like the
>screws in your PC) and the half moon strips have
>a tang on both ends that is folded up to a side of
>the hex., preventing the screws to turn loose.
>
>So I was correct. The strips function is to secure
>the screws.

Would make sense ...

>But you and I both had round phillips heads,
>thus something must be wrong.
>Either:
> We both worked on a bike that had been worked
> on by somebody who broke off the tangs and
> replaced the screws. Without tangs he did no
> longer need hex heads, but needed loctite,
>or:
> keihin-san ran out of hex screws in 1987 and
> just thought: okay, we'll use round heads and
> loctite until we get a new batch of hex screws.
> I know that things like that happen in a production
> factory. I myself signed waivers for changes
> in production like that.
> Could well be that you and I worked on the
> same batch of Keihins.

Must be the latter.

I bought my '87 with lo mileage in 1988. Fella I bought it
from hadn't torn into anything like that.

My Honda 89/90 manual just sez "screw" and the diagram is
plenty indistinct to prevent positive identification.

Your explanation is plausable, and doesn't speak well of
Dear, Dear Honda.

P'raps a fistful of C4 and some hi-grade detonators are in
order. :-)

Thx,
P

" ... and the bees made honey in the lion's head."
- from "If I Had My Way", Blind Willie Johnson

Re: Mutant Nipponese Fasteners

On May 26, 4:21 am, Puddin' Man <puddingDOT...@gmail,com > wrote:
> On Sun, 25 May 2008 15:20:30 -0700 (PDT), oldgeezer <schreuder...@yahoo,com > wrote:
>
>I just saw a picture in a shop manual.
<snip>
> >So I was correct. The strips function is to secure
> >the screws.
>
> Would make sense ...

Stupid me. I focused on that 2-inch image and did not
RTFM words below it.

For you to see, I blew that image out of proportions to
http :// www .peterbos.nl/pictures/carb.jpg

Just read what item #1 is named.

<snip>
>
> Your explanation is plausable, and doesn't speak well of
> Dear, Dear Honda.

Nah, it is common practice. I worked for the Quality Dept
of a Dutch and later also of an American company.
The US cie had Jap customers among many others
from all over the world.
Japs were pretty tough and played everything strict
to rules. If I had to rank em quality wise; (meaningful rules
present, rules adhered to) the US-cie would come last.

Having said that: I own two bloody bikes (identical)
with rear suspensions that have no lube point and
a steel allen bolt (inside hexagonal, aka imbus)
screwed into aluminum that keeps it all together.
That bolt is impossible to loosen. I froze, blow torched,
hammered (hit my knuckles), molested hex keys (tools)
until they resembled a drill, and finally drilled the bolt out of
one bike's suspension.
And still can't get the suspension off of the bike.
Yes, they are Honda's.

Unfortunately, all this writing does not help you
to remove the screws.

Rob.