Why is it so hard to find neutral?

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

On Apr 24, 7:25 am, "Blattus Slafaly ? (3) ¼ :)"
<boobooililili...@roadrunner,com > wrote:
> Eat Dirt wrote:
> > When shifting from 2nd into neutral, it usually ends up in 1st. Then
> > when going from 1st into neutral, it ends up in 2nd. It seems that no
> > matter how gentle I try to shift, it goes right past neutral. Why is
> > this and what can I do to rectify the problem?
> > I'm using 10-40 oil and just got the oil replaced, so i don't suppose
> > it's slipping due to bad oil.
>
> > The bike is a 83 Kawi GPz305 with 23,000 km that I'm restoring. Aside
> > from this problem all gears seems to shift OK, although the clutch is
> > nearing its end but still has some life left. Since this is a bike for
> > the wife to learn to ride on, this is sure to prove to be a problem
> > for her. Even I have a tough time finding neutral when coming to a
> > stop, so I can just imagine the difficulty and frustration she'll have
> > while learning to ride the thing. On a side note (and I'm not sure if
> > this is relevant or just how the bike was designed) it doesn't shift
> > into 2nd while stopped. It shifts fine when moving but never while the
> > rear wheel isn't moving.
>
> > If this is an easy fix (the neutral issue), can someone please post
> > detailed instructions on what needs to be done? I have a service
> > manual that I can refer to, if the work isn't too complicated and is
> > something I can do on my own.
> > Thanks
>
> Because there is no neutral stop. You have to pull from 1st and stop
> half way between 1st and 2nd. It's a pisser sometimes. It's the mickey
> mouse part of a bike. They should have put neutral at the bottom, then
> 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th  and 6th. It would be easy to go all the way
> down and up one at a stop light for 1st.
>
> --
> Blattus Slafaly  ? 3     :)  7/8- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You are joking right?

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

On Apr 24, 9:25 am, "Blattus Slafaly ? (3) ¼ :)"
<boobooililili...@roadrunner,com > wrote:
> Eat Dirt wrote:
> > When shifting from 2nd into neutral, it usually ends up in 1st. Then
> > when going from 1st into neutral, it ends up in 2nd. It seems that no
> > matter how gentle I try to shift, it goes right past neutral. Why is
> > this and what can I do to rectify the problem?
> > I'm using 10-40 oil and just got the oil replaced, so i don't suppose
> > it's slipping due to bad oil.
>
> > The bike is a 83 Kawi GPz305 with 23,000 km that I'm restoring. Aside
> > from this problem all gears seems to shift OK, although the clutch is
> > nearing its end but still has some life left. Since this is a bike for
> > the wife to learn to ride on, this is sure to prove to be a problem
> > for her. Even I have a tough time finding neutral when coming to a
> > stop, so I can just imagine the difficulty and frustration she'll have
> > while learning to ride the thing. On a side note (and I'm not sure if
> > this is relevant or just how the bike was designed) it doesn't shift
> > into 2nd while stopped. It shifts fine when moving but never while the
> > rear wheel isn't moving.
>
> > If this is an easy fix (the neutral issue), can someone please post
> > detailed instructions on what needs to be done? I have a service
> > manual that I can refer to, if the work isn't too complicated and is
> > something I can do on my own.
> > Thanks
>
> Because there is no neutral stop. You have to pull from 1st and stop
> half way between 1st and 2nd. It's a pisser sometimes. It's the mickey
> mouse part of a bike. They should have put neutral at the bottom, then
> 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th  and 6th. It would be easy to go all the way
> down and up one at a stop light for 1st.
>
> --
> Blattus Slafaly  ? 3     :)  7/8- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Kawasaki used to have it that way. The feds told them they had to put
it between 1st and 2nd as would everyone else. I still have an old
Kawsaki tripple that I ride occasionally and can tell you that with
neutral all the way down you must pay attention to what gear you are
in or you will get a wakeup call when you downshift into neutral
thinking you were going to get 1st.

Bruce

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

bsr3997@my-deja,com wrote:
> On Apr 24, 9:25 am, "Blattus Slafaly ? (3) ¼ :)"
> <boobooililili...@roadrunner,com > wrote:
>> Eat Dirt wrote:
>>> When shifting from 2nd into neutral, it usually ends up in 1st. Then
>>> when going from 1st into neutral, it ends up in 2nd. It seems that no
>>> matter how gentle I try to shift, it goes right past neutral. Why is
>>> this and what can I do to rectify the problem?
>>> I'm using 10-40 oil and just got the oil replaced, so i don't suppose
>>> it's slipping due to bad oil.
>>> The bike is a 83 Kawi GPz305 with 23,000 km that I'm restoring. Aside
>>> from this problem all gears seems to shift OK, although the clutch is
>>> nearing its end but still has some life left. Since this is a bike for
>>> the wife to learn to ride on, this is sure to prove to be a problem
>>> for her. Even I have a tough time finding neutral when coming to a
>>> stop, so I can just imagine the difficulty and frustration she'll have
>>> while learning to ride the thing. On a side note (and I'm not sure if
>>> this is relevant or just how the bike was designed) it doesn't shift
>>> into 2nd while stopped. It shifts fine when moving but never while the
>>> rear wheel isn't moving.
>>> If this is an easy fix (the neutral issue), can someone please post
>>> detailed instructions on what needs to be done? I have a service
>>> manual that I can refer to, if the work isn't too complicated and is
>>> something I can do on my own.
>>> Thanks
>> Because there is no neutral stop. You have to pull from 1st and stop
>> half way between 1st and 2nd. It's a pisser sometimes. It's the mickey
>> mouse part of a bike. They should have put neutral at the bottom, then
>> 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th. It would be easy to go all the way
>> down and up one at a stop light for 1st.
>>
>> --
>> Blattus Slafaly ? 3 :) 7/8- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Kawasaki used to have it that way. The feds told them they had to put
> it between 1st and 2nd as would everyone else. I still have an old
> Kawsaki tripple that I ride occasionally and can tell you that with
> neutral all the way down you must pay attention to what gear you are
> in or you will get a wakeup call when you downshift into neutral
> thinking you were going to get 1st.
>
> Bruce
I don't see the big deal, you have brakes don't you? I sometimes shift
into neutral at a red light so I can take my hand off the clutch. It's
no big deal to shift into first to take off. Don't matter if neutral is
between 1st and 2nd or at the bottom to me. Just handier at the bottom.
Some bureaucratic dumb retard must have come up with that standard.

--
Blattus Slafaly ? 3 :) 7/8

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:38:34 -0400, "Blattus Slafaly ? (3) ¼
:)" <boobooililililil@roadrunner,com > wrote:

>bsr3997@my-deja,com wrote:
>> On Apr 24, 9:25 am, "Blattus Slafaly ? (3) ¼ :)"
>> <boobooililili...@roadrunner,com > wrote:
>>> Eat Dirt wrote:
>>>> When shifting from 2nd into neutral, it usually ends up in 1st. Then
>>>> when going from 1st into neutral, it ends up in 2nd. It seems that no
>>>> matter how gentle I try to shift, it goes right past neutral. Why is
>>>> this and what can I do to rectify the problem?
>>>> I'm using 10-40 oil and just got the oil replaced, so i don't suppose
>>>> it's slipping due to bad oil.
>>>> The bike is a 83 Kawi GPz305 with 23,000 km that I'm restoring. Aside
>>>> from this problem all gears seems to shift OK, although the clutch is
>>>> nearing its end but still has some life left. Since this is a bike for
>>>> the wife to learn to ride on, this is sure to prove to be a problem
>>>> for her. Even I have a tough time finding neutral when coming to a
>>>> stop, so I can just imagine the difficulty and frustration she'll have
>>>> while learning to ride the thing. On a side note (and I'm not sure if
>>>> this is relevant or just how the bike was designed) it doesn't shift
>>>> into 2nd while stopped. It shifts fine when moving but never while the
>>>> rear wheel isn't moving.
>>>> If this is an easy fix (the neutral issue), can someone please post
>>>> detailed instructions on what needs to be done? I have a service
>>>> manual that I can refer to, if the work isn't too complicated and is
>>>> something I can do on my own.
>>>> Thanks
>>> Because there is no neutral stop. You have to pull from 1st and stop
>>> half way between 1st and 2nd. It's a pisser sometimes. It's the mickey
>>> mouse part of a bike. They should have put neutral at the bottom, then
>>> 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th. It would be easy to go all the way
>>> down and up one at a stop light for 1st.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Blattus Slafaly ? 3 :) 7/8- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> Kawasaki used to have it that way. The feds told them they had to put
>> it between 1st and 2nd as would everyone else. I still have an old
>> Kawsaki tripple that I ride occasionally and can tell you that with
>> neutral all the way down you must pay attention to what gear you are
>> in or you will get a wakeup call when you downshift into neutral
>> thinking you were going to get 1st.
>>
>> Bruce
>I don't see the big deal, you have brakes don't you? I sometimes shift
>into neutral at a red light so I can take my hand off the clutch. It's
>no big deal to shift into first to take off. Don't matter if neutral is
>between 1st and 2nd or at the bottom to me. Just handier at the bottom.
>Some bureaucratic dumb retard must have come up with that standard.



It's not a big deal for me either. Nowadays, it is less
trouble than it was on one of my old Triumph Bonnies that
had a neutral between every gear when I didn't want it and
neber could find neutral when stopped in traffic. The
standard did not eliminate some machines having that odd
neutral between gears but, it does make it easier to find it
every time if you are stopped. No big deal; the engineers
figured out a way to comply with the standards and make it
work pretty much every time to just let the machine handle
the details. It works too well for the politicians or
bureaucrats to have come up with it.

Lugnut

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?


""Blattus Slafaly ? (3) ¼ :)"" <boobooililililil@roadrunner,com > wrote

> I don't see the big deal, you have brakes don't you? I sometimes shift
> into neutral at a red light so I can take my hand off the clutch. It's no
> big deal to shift into first to take off.

It can be a *really* big deal if someone's about to cream you from behind
and you don't have the time to shift into first before you get the heck out
of Dodge. That's why most intelligent riders leave it in first gear at stop
lights.

But hey; it's your ass.

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

P. Roehling wrote:
> ""Blattus Slafaly ? (3) ¼ :)"" <boobooililililil@roadrunner,com > wrote
>
>> I don't see the big deal, you have brakes don't you? I sometimes shift
>> into neutral at a red light so I can take my hand off the clutch. It's no
>> big deal to shift into first to take off.
>
> It can be a *really* big deal if someone's about to cream you from behind
> and you don't have the time to shift into first before you get the heck out
> of Dodge. That's why most intelligent riders leave it in first gear at stop
> lights.
>
> But hey; it's your ass.


As if...remember, this is AMS where we ride bikes with elbow vanity
mirrors. Lotta good preparing for a race start will do when you can't
see beyond your joint armor.

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?


"saddlebag" <saddlebag@aol,com > wrote

>> But hey; it's your ass.
> As if...remember, this is AMS where we ride bikes with elbow vanity
> mirrors. Lotta good preparing for a race start will do when you can't see
> beyond your joint armor.

I can see behind myself reasonably well with the stock VFR's mirrors. Sorry
about yours.

And I *do* watch my mirrors at intersections unless I'm lanesplitting and am
safely tucked away between the cages where I can't be rear-ended.

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

P. Roehling wrote:
> "saddlebag" <saddlebag@aol,com > wrote
>
>>> But hey; it's your ass.
>> As if...remember, this is AMS where we ride bikes with elbow vanity
>> mirrors. Lotta good preparing for a race start will do when you can't see
>> beyond your joint armor.
>
> I can see behind myself reasonably well with the stock VFR's mirrors. Sorry
> about yours.

I have and FJR and a Warrior, both of which have excellent rearviewage.
But I'm not most of us. FWIW, I never leave it in first unless I
reckon the light is about to change. I really doubt that I'd react fast
enough in most circumstances anyway. I do tend to angle myself toward
the opening between vehicles so if I were to get swatted it would
hopefully just accelerate me rather than squash me. It also gives the
driver behind me some room to hopefully maneuver around me.

> And I *do* watch my mirrors at intersections unless I'm lanesplitting and am
> safely tucked away between the cages where I can't be rear-ended.

I've only been rearended once in my life and that was last year driving
my wife back from an in and out surgery in Chicago. The person behind
me had maintained a safe distance (I thought), but as I was merging into
slow moving traffic to take an exit from the righthand lane, the person
behind him didn't seem to notice and rammed him in the rear at full
speed. I heard the collision behind me, but I was already angled in and
mostly in the right lane. Still, the kid behind me ended up whacking me
causing me to run into the pickup in front of me. Essentially I did
little more to him than give him a love tap as the energy had been well
dissipated in crumple zones by that time. Didn't evem leave a mark on
his bumper, but I later learned he claimed medical from the blind guy at
the rear. The agent told me *everyone* claims medical in an accident
when they're not at fault and was surprised as hell when we didn't. Who
knew having a modicum of integrity in 21 century America was so unusual?

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

On Apr 25, 11:38 am, "Blattus Slafaly ? (3) ¼ :)"
<boobooililili...@roadrunner,com > wrote:
> bsr3...@my-deja,com wrote:
> > On Apr 24, 9:25 am, "Blattus Slafaly ? (3) ¼ :)"
> > <boobooililili...@roadrunner,com > wrote:
> >> Eat Dirt wrote:
> >>> When shifting from 2nd into neutral, it usually ends up in 1st. Then
> >>> when going from 1st into neutral, it ends up in 2nd. It seems that no
> >>> matter how gentle I try to shift, it goes right past neutral. Why is
> >>> this and what can I do to rectify the problem?
> >>> I'm using 10-40 oil and just got the oil replaced, so i don't suppose
> >>> it's slipping due to bad oil.
> >>> The bike is a 83 Kawi GPz305 with 23,000 km that I'm restoring. Aside
> >>> from this problem all gears seems to shift OK, although the clutch is
> >>> nearing its end but still has some life left. Since this is a bike for
> >>> the wife to learn to ride on, this is sure to prove to be a problem
> >>> for her. Even I have a tough time finding neutral when coming to a
> >>> stop, so I can just imagine the difficulty and frustration she'll have
> >>> while learning to ride the thing. On a side note (and I'm not sure if
> >>> this is relevant or just how the bike was designed) it doesn't shift
> >>> into 2nd while stopped. It shifts fine when moving but never while the
> >>> rear wheel isn't moving.
> >>> If this is an easy fix (the neutral issue), can someone please post
> >>> detailed instructions on what needs to be done? I have a service
> >>> manual that I can refer to, if the work isn't too complicated and is
> >>> something I can do on my own.
> >>> Thanks
> >> Because there is no neutral stop. You have to pull from 1st and stop
> >> half way between 1st and 2nd. It's a pisser sometimes. It's the mickey
> >> mouse part of a bike. They should have put neutral at the bottom, then
> >> 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th  and 6th. It would be easy to go all the way
> >> down and up one at a stop light for 1st.
>
> >> --
> >> Blattus Slafaly  ? 3     :)  7/8- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Kawasaki used to have it that way.  The feds told them they had to put
> > it between 1st and 2nd as would everyone else.  I still have an old
> > Kawsaki tripple that I ride occasionally and can tell you that with
> > neutral all the way down you must pay attention to what gear you are
> > in or you will get a wakeup call when you downshift into neutral
> > thinking you were going to get 1st.
>
> > Bruce
>
> I don't see the big deal, you have brakes don't you? I sometimes shift
> into neutral at a red light so I can take my hand off the clutch. It's
> no big deal to shift into first to take off. Don't matter if neutral is
> between 1st and 2nd or at the bottom to me. Just handier at the bottom.
> Some bureaucratic dumb retard must have come up with that standard.
>
> --
> Blattus Slafaly  ? 3     :)  7/8- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Actually the early Kawasaki triples were kinda lacking in the brakes
department. I can remember one time when I put my feet down trying to
stop because it seemed like they had more effect!!!

Bruce

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

On Apr 24, 1:48 am, Eat Dirt <eatdirt...@gmail,com > wrote:
> When shifting from 2nd into neutral, it usually ends up in 1st. Then
> when going from 1st into neutral, it ends up in 2nd. It seems that no
> matter how gentle I try to shift, it goes right past neutral. Why is
> this and what can I do to rectify the problem?
> I'm using 10-40 oil and just got the oil replaced, so i don't suppose
> it's slipping due to bad oil.

If you study the shifter detent mechanism in online parts fiches like
www .bikebandit,com , you will probably find that there is a spring-
loaded ball that drops into one of six or seven "valleys" in a star-
shaped cam attached to the end of the shifter drum.

Most star-shaped cams are symmetrical, the cam has to rotate the same
number of degrees between any two gears or between first gear and
neutral or second gear and neutral, but I have seen at least one Honda
that did not have a symmetrical shifter detent cam.

The symmetricality of the shifter cam results in the rider having to
move the shifter lever a smaller distance to shift from any of the
higher gears to the next lower or higher gear, but the rider has to
remember to move the shift lever further when shifting from first to
second or second to first.

Most riders do not realize this simple fact of life about the shifter
cam design, and they wind up in false neutrals when shifting, or they
have problems finding true neutral.

In order to get more precise gear detention, you can replace the
compression spring with a stiffer spring found in a hardware store.

More modern designs have done away with the compression spring-loaded
detent ball and have replaced it with a spring-loaded roller on a
pivoting arm. The roller drops into one of the valleys on the "star
wheel".

The spring on the later detent devices is a tension spring.

Kawasaki has been using its own positive neutral finder for at least
30 years now. The PNF consists of a 5/16ths steel ball which falls
into a hole in a sleeve in second gear. The system is very reliable,
only one rider has ever complained to thsi forum about getting stuck
in first gear and being unable to shift to second because the PNF
jammed.

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

. wrote:
> On Apr 24, 1:48 am, Eat Dirt <eatdirt...@gmail,com > wrote:
>> When shifting from 2nd into neutral, it usually ends up in 1st. Then
>> when going from 1st into neutral, it ends up in 2nd. It seems that no
>> matter how gentle I try to shift, it goes right past neutral. Why is
>> this and what can I do to rectify the problem?
>> I'm using 10-40 oil and just got the oil replaced, so i don't suppose
>> it's slipping due to bad oil.
>
> If you study the shifter detent mechanism in online parts fiches like
> www .bikebandit,com , you will probably find that there is a spring-
> loaded ball that drops into one of six or seven "valleys" in a star-
> shaped cam attached to the end of the shifter drum.
>
> Most star-shaped cams are symmetrical, the cam has to rotate the same
> number of degrees between any two gears or between first gear and
> neutral or second gear and neutral, but I have seen at least one Honda
> that did not have a symmetrical shifter detent cam.
>
> The symmetricality of the shifter cam results in the rider having to
> move the shifter lever a smaller distance to shift from any of the
> higher gears to the next lower or higher gear, but the rider has to
> remember to move the shift lever further when shifting from first to
> second or second to first.
>
> Most riders do not realize this simple fact of life about the shifter
> cam design, and they wind up in false neutrals when shifting, or they
> have problems finding true neutral.
>
> In order to get more precise gear detention, you can replace the
> compression spring with a stiffer spring found in a hardware store.
>
> More modern designs have done away with the compression spring-loaded
> detent ball and have replaced it with a spring-loaded roller on a
> pivoting arm. The roller drops into one of the valleys on the "star
> wheel".
>
> The spring on the later detent devices is a tension spring.
>
> Kawasaki has been using its own positive neutral finder for at least
> 30 years now. The PNF consists of a 5/16ths steel ball which falls
> into a hole in a sleeve in second gear. The system is very reliable,
> only one rider has ever complained to thsi forum about getting stuck
> in first gear and being unable to shift to second because the PNF
> jammed.
>

If there wasn't a neutral light is would be near impossible to tell if
you were in neutral now. But no problem if neutral was at the bottom.
Designed by retards if you ask me.



--
Blattus Slafaly ? 3 :) 7/8

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

On Apr 25, 9:41 am, "Blattus Slafaly ? (3) ¼ :)"
<boobooililili...@roadrunner,com >
> If there wasn't a neutral light is would be near impossible to tell if
> you were in neutral now. But no problem if neutral was at the bottom.
> Designed by retards if you ask me.

Do yourself a favor: stay away from dirt bikes

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

Blattus Slafaly ? (3) ¼ :) <boobooililililil@roadrunner,com > wrote:
>
> If there wasn't a neutral light is would be near impossible to tell if
> you were in neutral now. But no problem if neutral was at the bottom.

My RS-125 doesn't have a neutral light, and it can be a bitch - I have to
give it some gas and let the clutch out slowly to make sure it is in
neutral. I imagine if I spent more time on it I'd get a better feel for
it.

> Designed by retards if you ask me.

Since when do you need to get into neutral in a hurry? Having the neutral
at the bottom (or on the top if you reverse shift) would be idiotic.

Now, what is stupid is the current standard shift pattern. Reverse shift
is far superior for so many reasons. But, I guess they had to make moving
the shifter up for an upshift, and down a downshift, for the stupid people....

- Kurt

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

~kurt wrote:
> Blattus Slafaly ?
>> Designed by retards if you ask me.
>
> Since when do you need to get into neutral in a hurry? Having the neutral
> at the bottom (or on the top if you reverse shift) would be idiotic.

Because...

> Now, what is stupid is the current standard shift pattern. Reverse shift
> is far superior for so many reasons.

Which are...

Re: Why is it so hard to find neutral?

saddlebag <saddlebag@aol,com > wrote:
> ~kurt wrote:
>> Blattus Slafaly ?
>>> Designed by retards if you ask me.
>>
>> Since when do you need to get into neutral in a hurry? Having the neutral
>> at the bottom (or on the top if you reverse shift) would be idiotic.
>
> Because...

Because I have never had to get into neutral in a hurry. Being able to snick
right into 1st with no thought is much more useful. Can you just imagine
having the bike spun up, braking hard as you approach a 1st gear turn,
and having to *carefully* find first as you are snapping the bike over,
pushing the front, sliding the rear? What happens if that front is
pushing, and you are grabbing a handful of neutral and can't kick that
rear out to save the turn? When you are leaned way over, do you really
want to be dealing with finding 1st?

>> Now, what is stupid is the current standard shift pattern. Reverse shift
>> is far superior for so many reasons.
>
> Which are...

The primary reason why racers do it, or just track addicts, is so you
can start upshifting while leaned way over (not enough room to get your foot
under the lever when leaned far). But, there are more benefits to it. I was
actually a bit skeptical when I decided to first try it. I tend to think
of downshifting under hard braking as more stressful than the upshifting
during hard acceleration - so I figured the standard shift pattern would
make more sense since simply pushing down on the lever while braking
hard is easier than getting your foot under the lever and pulling up. Here
are the surprising things I have found, that even apply on the street. First,
with reverse shift, I find my downshifts are smoother. I am actually better
able to preload the shifter with my foot beneath it, and then just give the
clutch a slight snick almost like doing a clutchless upshift. What I thought
would actually add stress to downshifing really makes it a less stressful,
and smoother event. Second, upshifting under any conditions is much easier.
It is especially noticeable when still leaned over (regardless of available
ground clearance, or if you are leaned to the right instead of the left), and
getting on the gas hard, when things are starting to squirm around on you. I
can better weight the outside peg when traction is getting iffy. Clutchless
upshifting is obviously easier. I'm sure people who like to do lots of
wheelies (not my thing) would also appreciate pushing down to upshift . No
doubt it is better on the track - I'm just surprised how much more I like it
on the street too. The ability to change shift pattern will be a big
consideration for any new bike I ever get (street or track).

- Kurt