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Euro diesel reaches the US
Re: Euro diesel reaches the US
bob prohaska's usenet account <bp@www .zefox,net > wrote:
> Seems to me the build cost of a Diesel is guaranteed to be significantly
> higher than an Otto-cycle engine. Developing a few hundred atmospheres
> on a volume a few cubic millimeters repeatably and controllably ten times
> per second or faster poses a severe problem for the injection designer.
Yes, and common rail injection is very sophisticated. Still, once
designed, it's not really any different from an ordinary FI system, is
it? Maybe a more powerful pump, and different injectors, but that's all
it is - fuel injection.
>
> Reliably generating a few tens of atmospheres compression with acceptable
> angular momentum changes argues strongly for a very elaborate vibration
> control scheme or a relatively heavy engine.
Diesels are heavier, yes. Diesel cars typically have slightly uprated
front suspension to cope, and some testers note the difference in
understeer between a diesel and alighter petrol engined car. So a little
bit more money for raw material?
>
> It may well be that Diesels, at least in the US, are overpriced. Still,
> they present real physical challenges not matched by Otto designs.
In their design, yes, I agree. But once design is finished and done
with, there's really not much difference in construction costs.
--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F & SL125
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
bob prohaska's usenet account <bp@www .zefox,net > wrote:
> Seems to me the build cost of a Diesel is guaranteed to be significantly
> higher than an Otto-cycle engine. Developing a few hundred atmospheres
> on a volume a few cubic millimeters repeatably and controllably ten times
> per second or faster poses a severe problem for the injection designer.
Yes, and common rail injection is very sophisticated. Still, once
designed, it's not really any different from an ordinary FI system, is
it? Maybe a more powerful pump, and different injectors, but that's all
it is - fuel injection.
>
> Reliably generating a few tens of atmospheres compression with acceptable
> angular momentum changes argues strongly for a very elaborate vibration
> control scheme or a relatively heavy engine.
Diesels are heavier, yes. Diesel cars typically have slightly uprated
front suspension to cope, and some testers note the difference in
understeer between a diesel and alighter petrol engined car. So a little
bit more money for raw material?
>
> It may well be that Diesels, at least in the US, are overpriced. Still,
> they present real physical challenges not matched by Otto designs.
In their design, yes, I agree. But once design is finished and done
with, there's really not much difference in construction costs.
--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F & SL125
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
Re: Euro diesel reaches the US
"LJ" <laremoDelete@yahoo,com > writes:
> "The Older Gentleman" <totallydeadmailbox@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1ic4xfp.wcsfqm1m4j27cN%totallydeadmailbox@yahoo.co.uk...
>> Diesel cars and diesel fuel are *not* subsidised in Europe. Where did
>> you get this nonsense from? It *is* slightly cheaper in some countries
> due largely to different tax rates for diesel, ergo subsidized. Germany,
> Spain and other countries have also allowed tax benefits for diesel owners
> until recently,
Unless something has changed recently, the "tax benefit" in Germany was
that you paid a little less for Diesel compared to petrol.
However, the yearly taxes on vehicles are calculated based on engine
displacement and fuel type. Diesel engines, unsurprisingly, attract a
noticeably higher tax (something between 50% to 75% more IIRC). To break
even, it used to be that you needed to do about 20k+ miles/year at
least. However, the average mileage is/was only about 6k-8k miles/year.
--
Morini Corsaro 125 | CB450K4 | XL250 Motosport | 900SSD | R1150RT
Laverda SF2 | Harley FXD BOTAFOF #33 TWA#10
The UKRM FAQ: http :// www .ukrm,net /faq/index.html
"Je profite du paysage" - Joe Bar
"LJ" <laremoDelete@yahoo,com > writes:
> "The Older Gentleman" <totallydeadmailbox@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1ic4xfp.wcsfqm1m4j27cN%totallydeadmailbox@yahoo.co.uk...
>> Diesel cars and diesel fuel are *not* subsidised in Europe. Where did
>> you get this nonsense from? It *is* slightly cheaper in some countries
> due largely to different tax rates for diesel, ergo subsidized. Germany,
> Spain and other countries have also allowed tax benefits for diesel owners
> until recently,
Unless something has changed recently, the "tax benefit" in Germany was
that you paid a little less for Diesel compared to petrol.
However, the yearly taxes on vehicles are calculated based on engine
displacement and fuel type. Diesel engines, unsurprisingly, attract a
noticeably higher tax (something between 50% to 75% more IIRC). To break
even, it used to be that you needed to do about 20k+ miles/year at
least. However, the average mileage is/was only about 6k-8k miles/year.
--
Morini Corsaro 125 | CB450K4 | XL250 Motosport | 900SSD | R1150RT
Laverda SF2 | Harley FXD BOTAFOF #33 TWA#10
The UKRM FAQ: http :// www .ukrm,net /faq/index.html
"Je profite du paysage" - Joe Bar
Re: Euro diesel reaches the US
On Feb 10, 12:35=EF=BF=BDpm, "Anonymous" <c...@com,com > wrote:
> This is as far as I can get with your link: http :// news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/busi=
ness/
Try this one:
http :// news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7232357.stm
On Feb 10, 12:35=EF=BF=BDpm, "Anonymous" <c...@com,com > wrote:
> This is as far as I can get with your link: http :// news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/busi=
ness/
Try this one:
http :// news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7232357.stm
Re: Euro diesel reaches the US
"." <RhiannonX@gmail,com > wrote in message
news:e1241966-975f-4824-b7d2-ac946b6887d2@d70g2000hsb.googlegroups,com ...
On Feb 10, 12:35?pm, "Anonymous" <c...@com,com > wrote:
> This is as far as I can get with your
> link: http :// news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/
Try this one:
http :// news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7232357.stm
Thanks, that opens much better than:
http :// news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7232357.stm
"." <RhiannonX@gmail,com > wrote in message
news:e1241966-975f-4824-b7d2-ac946b6887d2@d70g2000hsb.googlegroups,com ...
On Feb 10, 12:35?pm, "Anonymous" <c...@com,com > wrote:
> This is as far as I can get with your
> link: http :// news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/
Try this one:
http :// news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7232357.stm
Thanks, that opens much better than:
http :// news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7232357.stm
Re: Euro diesel reaches the US
On Feb 10, 11:07=EF=BF=BDam, totallydeadmail...@yahoo.co.uk (The Older
Gentleman) wrote:
> http :// news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7232357.stm
>
> Quite interesting. Especially for Krusty, I have no doubt.
Manufacturers of diesel passenger cars will have to prove to ordinary
middle class consumers that their offerings are not the pokey, smokey
objects of yesteryear, collected and driven only by kooks.
I personally know such a kook. He has a collection of old white
Mercedes Benzes with hoods painted flat black. He has owned several
diesel VW's as well.
They were all white, with black hoods, too.
The mandatory use of ultra low sulfur diesel (15 ppm instead of 500
ppm) by large diesel trucks may result in me being able to actually
see the Sierra Nevada again before I die.
In the 1890's, John Muir could look across the San Joaquin valley from
Pacheco pass and see the Sierra Nevada range gleaming in the sun, 150
miles away.
Today's visibility is 2.5 miles. I cannot see the front range of the
Sierra and it's only 10 miles away.
But, it isn't just the fault of polluting diesel engines.
The EPA will also have to figure out what to do with all the methane
coming out of dairy cattle's digestive tracts.
We have more dairy cattle in this county than in all of Wisconsin or
Switzerland.
We make more cheese than any country in the world, but our cows also
cut the cheese frequently, turning the sky reddish brown.
Cattle generate almost 7 pounds of volatile material, per animal, per
day.
Driving past the dairy farms at night, my eyes sting from all the
ammonia in the air.
Perhaps cows can be fitted with large rubber bags to recycle volatile
gasses. Or maybe engineers can figure out how to fit each cow with an
afterburner device to consume the fumes.
Biofuel engineers will have to figure out some way for cows to poop
ultra low sulfur cowpies or start a program of collecting cow pies
prior to methane emission.
The cow pies can be burned and electrical power can be generated.
Cleaning the air in California is not going to be easy.
On Feb 10, 11:07=EF=BF=BDam, totallydeadmail...@yahoo.co.uk (The Older
Gentleman) wrote:
> http :// news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7232357.stm
>
> Quite interesting. Especially for Krusty, I have no doubt.
Manufacturers of diesel passenger cars will have to prove to ordinary
middle class consumers that their offerings are not the pokey, smokey
objects of yesteryear, collected and driven only by kooks.
I personally know such a kook. He has a collection of old white
Mercedes Benzes with hoods painted flat black. He has owned several
diesel VW's as well.
They were all white, with black hoods, too.
The mandatory use of ultra low sulfur diesel (15 ppm instead of 500
ppm) by large diesel trucks may result in me being able to actually
see the Sierra Nevada again before I die.
In the 1890's, John Muir could look across the San Joaquin valley from
Pacheco pass and see the Sierra Nevada range gleaming in the sun, 150
miles away.
Today's visibility is 2.5 miles. I cannot see the front range of the
Sierra and it's only 10 miles away.
But, it isn't just the fault of polluting diesel engines.
The EPA will also have to figure out what to do with all the methane
coming out of dairy cattle's digestive tracts.
We have more dairy cattle in this county than in all of Wisconsin or
Switzerland.
We make more cheese than any country in the world, but our cows also
cut the cheese frequently, turning the sky reddish brown.
Cattle generate almost 7 pounds of volatile material, per animal, per
day.
Driving past the dairy farms at night, my eyes sting from all the
ammonia in the air.
Perhaps cows can be fitted with large rubber bags to recycle volatile
gasses. Or maybe engineers can figure out how to fit each cow with an
afterburner device to consume the fumes.
Biofuel engineers will have to figure out some way for cows to poop
ultra low sulfur cowpies or start a program of collecting cow pies
prior to methane emission.
The cow pies can be burned and electrical power can be generated.
Cleaning the air in California is not going to be easy.
Re: Euro diesel reaches the US
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:13:13 -0800 (PST), "." <RhiannonX@gmail,com > wrote:
>Cattle generate almost 7 pounds of volatile material, per animal, per
>day.
Back when there were billions of buffalo roaming North America, visibility must
have been limited to an arm's length.
--
Jack
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:13:13 -0800 (PST), "." <RhiannonX@gmail,com > wrote:
>Cattle generate almost 7 pounds of volatile material, per animal, per
>day.
Back when there were billions of buffalo roaming North America, visibility must
have been limited to an arm's length.
--
Jack
Re: Euro diesel reaches the US
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:57:18 -0500, Jack Hunt <jhunt1x@tds,net > wrote:
>On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:13:13 -0800 (PST), "." <RhiannonX@gmail,com > wrote:
>
>>Cattle generate almost 7 pounds of volatile material, per animal, per
>>day.
>
>Back when there were billions of buffalo roaming North America, visibility must
>have been limited to an arm's length.
You to slow way down on the inter-state, that's for sure ....
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http :// www .theanimalrescuesite,com /
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http :// pmilligan,net /palm/
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:57:18 -0500, Jack Hunt <jhunt1x@tds,net > wrote:
>On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:13:13 -0800 (PST), "." <RhiannonX@gmail,com > wrote:
>
>>Cattle generate almost 7 pounds of volatile material, per animal, per
>>day.
>
>Back when there were billions of buffalo roaming North America, visibility must
>have been limited to an arm's length.
You to slow way down on the inter-state, that's for sure ....
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http :// www .theanimalrescuesite,com /
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http :// pmilligan,net /palm/
Re: Euro diesel reaches the US
On Feb 10, 1:57=EF=BF=BDpm, Jack Hunt <jhun...@tds,net > wrote:
> Back when there were billions of buffalo roaming North America, visibility=
must
> have been limited to an arm's length.
Indians once claimed that they could walk for miles on the backs of
buffalo.
I just realized the reason for doing that was to avoid stepping in
buffalo shit...
On Feb 10, 1:57=EF=BF=BDpm, Jack Hunt <jhun...@tds,net > wrote:
> Back when there were billions of buffalo roaming North America, visibility=
must
> have been limited to an arm's length.
Indians once claimed that they could walk for miles on the backs of
buffalo.
I just realized the reason for doing that was to avoid stepping in
buffalo shit...
Re: Euro diesel reaches the US
Jack Hunt wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:13:13 -0800 (PST), "." <RhiannonX@gmail,com > wrote:
>
>
>>Cattle generate almost 7 pounds of volatile material, per animal, per
>>day.
>
>
> Back when there were billions of buffalo roaming North America, visibility must
> have been limited to an arm's length.
They were widely dispersed across plains, not densely packed in a
valley. And San Joaquin's cows probably don't eat much natural grass,
because there isn't any. Aside from the irrigated crop rows, that place
is parched.
Jack Hunt wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:13:13 -0800 (PST), "." <RhiannonX@gmail,com > wrote:
>
>
>>Cattle generate almost 7 pounds of volatile material, per animal, per
>>day.
>
>
> Back when there were billions of buffalo roaming North America, visibility must
> have been limited to an arm's length.
They were widely dispersed across plains, not densely packed in a
valley. And San Joaquin's cows probably don't eat much natural grass,
because there isn't any. Aside from the irrigated crop rows, that place
is parched.
Re: Euro diesel reaches the US
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:37:21 -0800, Beryl <flyingterrapin@chillybits.org> wrote:
>They were widely dispersed across plains, not densely packed in a
>valley.
You know this for a fact, do you?
The most buffalo I ever saw in one place was in Yellowstone, densely packed in a
canyon. The methane wasn't as thick there as the BS is around Al Gore's podium.
--
Jack
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:37:21 -0800, Beryl <flyingterrapin@chillybits.org> wrote:
>They were widely dispersed across plains, not densely packed in a
>valley.
You know this for a fact, do you?
The most buffalo I ever saw in one place was in Yellowstone, densely packed in a
canyon. The methane wasn't as thick there as the BS is around Al Gore's podium.
--
Jack
Re: Euro diesel reaches the US
Jack Hunt wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:37:21 -0800, Beryl <flyingterrapin@chillybits.org> wrote:
>
>
>>They were widely dispersed across plains, not densely packed in a
>>valley.
>
>
> You know this for a fact, do you?
Yeah! Had to be, grasses would never sustain populations like you see
with the cattle in the San Joaquin Valley. I'm sure the Indians didn't
truck in grain for them.
And I don't think there were "billions" of them. This site...
http :// www .alaskanalpinetreks,com /ImageGallery/Wildlife_3/BisonTheEye.html
says "From a population possibly numbering 100 million animals, they
were decimated through extensive hunting, until the late 1800's when
only 800 animals remained in the US."
> The most buffalo I ever saw in one place was in Yellowstone, densely packed in a
> canyon.
But as you said, they roamed. Rather, they used to.
> The methane wasn't as thick there as the BS is around Al Gore's podium.
I'll pay more attention to the Nobel Prize Winner than some guy in a
motorcycle newsgroup.
Jack Hunt wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:37:21 -0800, Beryl <flyingterrapin@chillybits.org> wrote:
>
>
>>They were widely dispersed across plains, not densely packed in a
>>valley.
>
>
> You know this for a fact, do you?
Yeah! Had to be, grasses would never sustain populations like you see
with the cattle in the San Joaquin Valley. I'm sure the Indians didn't
truck in grain for them.
And I don't think there were "billions" of them. This site...
http :// www .alaskanalpinetreks,com /ImageGallery/Wildlife_3/BisonTheEye.html
says "From a population possibly numbering 100 million animals, they
were decimated through extensive hunting, until the late 1800's when
only 800 animals remained in the US."
> The most buffalo I ever saw in one place was in Yellowstone, densely packed in a
> canyon.
But as you said, they roamed. Rather, they used to.
> The methane wasn't as thick there as the BS is around Al Gore's podium.
I'll pay more attention to the Nobel Prize Winner than some guy in a
motorcycle newsgroup.
Re: Euro diesel reaches the US
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:11:19 -0800, Beryl <flyingterrapin@chillybits.org> wrote:
>I'll pay more attention to the Nobel Prize Winner than some guy in a
>motorcycle newsgroup.
That's what Al's counting on. Have you ever stopped to wonder what his
qualifications are? I am at least as qualified as he is to debate global
warming.
--
Jack
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:11:19 -0800, Beryl <flyingterrapin@chillybits.org> wrote:
>I'll pay more attention to the Nobel Prize Winner than some guy in a
>motorcycle newsgroup.
That's what Al's counting on. Have you ever stopped to wonder what his
qualifications are? I am at least as qualified as he is to debate global
warming.
--
Jack
Re: Euro diesel reaches the US
Jack Hunt wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:11:19 -0800, Beryl <flyingterrapin@chillybits.org> wrote:
>
>
>>I'll pay more attention to the Nobel Prize Winner than some guy in a
>>motorcycle newsgroup.
>
>
> That's what Al's counting on. Have you ever stopped to wonder what his
> qualifications are?
Hard to top Nobel Prize Winner.
> I am at least as qualified as he is to debate global
> warming.
His qualifications span from his interest in global warming back in his
college years to, now, Nobel Prize Winner.
Even if he may be totally wrong about it all it's, at best, a big
unknown at this time. So how long dare we wait to feel sure about what's
really going on?
The oceans are a big carbon buffer. What suddenly happens when a solvent
reaches the saturation point?
Jack Hunt wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:11:19 -0800, Beryl <flyingterrapin@chillybits.org> wrote:
>
>
>>I'll pay more attention to the Nobel Prize Winner than some guy in a
>>motorcycle newsgroup.
>
>
> That's what Al's counting on. Have you ever stopped to wonder what his
> qualifications are?
Hard to top Nobel Prize Winner.
> I am at least as qualified as he is to debate global
> warming.
His qualifications span from his interest in global warming back in his
college years to, now, Nobel Prize Winner.
Even if he may be totally wrong about it all it's, at best, a big
unknown at this time. So how long dare we wait to feel sure about what's
really going on?
The oceans are a big carbon buffer. What suddenly happens when a solvent
reaches the saturation point?
Re: Euro diesel reaches the US
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:20:25 -0800, Beryl <flyingterrapin@chillybits.org> wrote:
>His qualifications span from his interest in global warming back in his
>college years to, now, Nobel Prize Winner.
One has to wonder why he never made a peep about it when he was running for
President, or for the whole 8 years he was VP.
You should know that Gore was my state senator for the whole time he was in the
Senate. He never said a word about Global Warming (which is now Global Climate
Change, just in case it cools off) until GWB kicked his ass in the election. And
then it wasn't immediate. It took him a while to find a cause du jour to
champion.
>Even if he may be totally wrong about it
How could he possibly be wrong? He's a Nobel Prize Winner.
>The oceans are a big carbon buffer. What suddenly happens when a solvent
>reaches the saturation point?
We ride to Thailand. Pave the planet. Next question.
--
Jack
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:20:25 -0800, Beryl <flyingterrapin@chillybits.org> wrote:
>His qualifications span from his interest in global warming back in his
>college years to, now, Nobel Prize Winner.
One has to wonder why he never made a peep about it when he was running for
President, or for the whole 8 years he was VP.
You should know that Gore was my state senator for the whole time he was in the
Senate. He never said a word about Global Warming (which is now Global Climate
Change, just in case it cools off) until GWB kicked his ass in the election. And
then it wasn't immediate. It took him a while to find a cause du jour to
champion.
>Even if he may be totally wrong about it
How could he possibly be wrong? He's a Nobel Prize Winner.
>The oceans are a big carbon buffer. What suddenly happens when a solvent
>reaches the saturation point?
We ride to Thailand. Pave the planet. Next question.
--
Jack
Re: Euro diesel reaches the US
Jack Hunt wrote:
> ... until GWB kicked his ass in the election.
LOL!
Jack Hunt wrote:
> ... until GWB kicked his ass in the election.
LOL!
