Ilford EXPRESS paper

Ilford EXPRESS paper

I have the opportunity to buy vast quantities of Ilford Express paper in 10"
and 5" rolls from 50 to 100' lenghts.

While I have read Ilford's literature on this stuff, I can't sift the BS
from what might be important to a serious (eg not mass-consumption) printer.

Do you all have any insight into this paper?

Thank you in advance,
js

Re: Ilford EXPRESS paper

In article <13odkp6c1qae722@news.supernews,com >,
<jjs> writes:
>
> I have the opportunity to buy vast quantities of Ilford Express paper in 10"
> and 5" rolls from 50 to 100' lenghts.
>
> While I have read Ilford's literature on this stuff, I can't sift the BS
> from what might be important to a serious (eg not mass-consumption) printer.
>
> Do you all have any insight into this paper?

I know very little about it myself; however, if you don't get a useful
reply here, try on APUG ( http :// www .apug.org). Somebody there is bound to
have used it, and there's an Ilford rep (Simon Galley, IIRC) who posts to
the site and can probably answer questions.

--
Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks,com
http :// www .rodsbooks,com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

Re: Ilford EXPRESS paper


<jjs> wrote in message
news:13odkp6c1qae722@news.supernews,com ...
>I have the opportunity to buy vast quantities of Ilford
>Express paper in 10" and 5" rolls from 50 to 100' lenghts.
>
> While I have read Ilford's literature on this stuff, I
> can't sift the BS from what might be important to a
> serious (eg not mass-consumption) printer.
>
> Do you all have any insight into this paper?
>
> Thank you in advance,
> js
>
See:
http :// www .ilfordphoto,com /products/product.asp?n=25&t=Photographic+Papers

for a complete data sheet.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix,net com,com

Re: Ilford EXPRESS paper


"Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix,net com,com > wrote in message
news:13ofiff85bugo9b@corp.supernews,com ...
> See:
> http :// www .ilfordphoto,com /products/product.asp?n=25&t=Photographic+Papers

Thank you, Richard. I had already looked at that same page. However, I
cannot distinguish it from other Ilford papers except that the literature
emphasizes "Fast", which I take as a fast paper. I guess I am on my own,
and I don't mind it. I will report any significant differences from their
normal line here, probably next month.

Re: Ilford EXPRESS paper


<jjs> wrote in message
news:13ogcn34s26l451@news.supernews,com ...
>
> "Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix,net com,com > wrote in
> message news:13ofiff85bugo9b@corp.supernews,com ...
>> See:
>> http :// www .ilfordphoto,com /products/product.asp?n=25&t=Photographic+Papers
>
> Thank you, Richard. I had already looked at that same
> page. However, I cannot distinguish it from other Ilford
> papers except that the literature emphasizes "Fast", which
> I take as a fast paper. I guess I am on my own, and I
> don't mind it. I will report any significant differences
> from their normal line here, probably next month.
>
The ISO speed as given in the data sheet is no faster
than that for most variable contrast enlarging paper.
However, the paper is intended for use in automatic printing
machines where the exposure is to relatively intense light
for very short times, probably less than a second. Most
enlarging paper is intended for exposures of from about 10
or 15 seconds to a couple of minutes, typical exposures
being around 15 to 45 seconds. This paper is probaby
adjusted so that reciprocity effects, etc, are optimized for
the short exposure. This may mean a shift in overall
contrast or in the spacing of contrast with various filters
or other differences. I am sure the paper is quite usable
for normal printing but it may not behave in exactly the way
the contrast specs would have you expect. Since your
application is for hand processing I doubt if this will
cause any significant problems.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix,net com,com

Re: Ilford EXPRESS paper


"Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix,net com,com > wrote in message
news:13oiq2hgu33rj54@corp.supernews,com ...

> The ISO speed as given in the data sheet is no faster than that for
> most variable contrast enlarging paper. However, the paper is intended for
> use in automatic printing machines where the exposure is to relatively
> intense light for very short times, probably less than a second. Most
> enlarging paper is intended for exposures of from about 10 or 15 seconds
> to a couple of minutes, typical exposures being around 15 to 45 seconds.
> This paper is probaby adjusted so that reciprocity effects, etc, are
> optimized for the short exposure. This may mean a shift in overall
> contrast or in the spacing of contrast with various filters or other
> differences. I am sure the paper is quite usable for normal printing but
> it may not behave in exactly the way the contrast specs would have you
> expect. Since your application is for hand processing I doubt if this will
> cause any significant problems.

Thank you again, Richard. I have just installed an Ilford VC head for 4x5
work and will try that paper at near 1:1 enlargement late next week. I
wonder if this paper has a particularly energetic developer in the emulsion.
I recall one time you posted how one could tell by having a developer of a
simple solution. I would be most grateful if you could tell us again about
that.

Very Best,

JJS

Re: Ilford EXPRESS paper


<jjs> wrote in message
news:13oiskeojnvdm1c@news.supernews,com ...
>
> "Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix,net com,com > wrote in
> message news:13oiq2hgu33rj54@corp.supernews,com ...
>
>> The ISO speed as given in the data sheet is no faster
>> than that for most variable contrast enlarging paper.
>> However, the paper is intended for use in automatic
>> printing machines where the exposure is to relatively
>> intense light for very short times, probably less than a
>> second. Most enlarging paper is intended for exposures of
>> from about 10 or 15 seconds to a couple of minutes,
>> typical exposures being around 15 to 45 seconds. This
>> paper is probaby adjusted so that reciprocity effects,
>> etc, are optimized for the short exposure. This may mean
>> a shift in overall contrast or in the spacing of contrast
>> with various filters or other differences. I am sure the
>> paper is quite usable for normal printing but it may not
>> behave in exactly the way the contrast specs would have
>> you expect. Since your application is for hand processing
>> I doubt if this will cause any significant problems.
>
> Thank you again, Richard. I have just installed an
> Ilford VC head for 4x5 work and will try that paper at
> near 1:1 enlargement late next week. I wonder if this
> paper has a particularly energetic developer in the
> emulsion. I recall one time you posted how one could tell
> by having a developer of a simple solution. I would be
> most grateful if you could tell us again about that.
>
> Very Best,
>
> JJS
>
Ilford does not indicate if the paper has included
developer or not but I suspect it does not. One way to tell
is to "develop" a scrap of the paper in a strongly alkaline
solution. If there is incorporated developer it will turn
black. If not it won't. For the most part the effect of
incorporated developer when a normal developer is used
instead of an activator is to increase the speed of
development somewhat. That is the image will come up a bit
faster. It may also extend the capacity of the developer
somewhat. Activation results are never quite as good as
normal development.
From what I can learn from the Ilford material the main
and maybe only difference between this stuff an normal VC
paper is the optimization for very short exposures. This may
not have much effect on longer exposures but you will have
to experiment to find out. Also, I expect an e-mail or phone
call to Ilford would elicit more information.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix,net com,com

Re: Ilford EXPRESS paper


"Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix,net com,com > wrote in message
news:13ol5oua49m6ue3@corp.supernews,com ...
>
> <jjs> wrote in message news:13oiskeojnvdm1c@news.supernews,com ...
>>
>> "Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix,net com,com > wrote in message
>> news:13oiq2hgu33rj54@corp.supernews,com ...
>>
>>> The ISO speed as given in the data sheet is no faster than that for
>>> most variable contrast enlarging paper. However, the paper is intended
>>> for use in automatic printing machines where the exposure is to
>>> relatively intense light for very short times, probably less than a
>>> second. Most enlarging paper is intended for exposures of from about 10
>>> or 15 seconds to a couple of minutes, typical exposures being around 15
>>> to 45 seconds. This paper is probaby adjusted so that reciprocity
>>> effects, etc, are optimized for the short exposure. This may mean a
>>> shift in overall contrast or in the spacing of contrast with various
>>> filters or other differences. I am sure the paper is quite usable for
>>> normal printing but it may not behave in exactly the way the contrast
>>> specs would have you expect. Since your application is for hand
>>> processing I doubt if this will cause any significant problems.
>>
>> Thank you again, Richard. I have just installed an Ilford VC head for
>> 4x5 work and will try that paper at near 1:1 enlargement late next week.
>> I wonder if this paper has a particularly energetic developer in the
>> emulsion. I recall one time you posted how one could tell by having a
>> developer of a simple solution. I would be most grateful if you could
>> tell us again about that.
>>
>> Very Best,
>>
>> JJS
>>
> Ilford does not indicate if the paper has included developer or not
> but I suspect it does not. One way to tell is to "develop" a scrap of the
> paper in a strongly alkaline solution. If there is incorporated developer
> it will turn black. If not it won't. For the most part the effect of
> incorporated developer when a normal developer is used instead of an
> activator is to increase the speed of development somewhat. That is the
> image will come up a bit faster. It may also extend the capacity of the
> developer somewhat. Activation results are never quite as good as normal
> development.
> From what I can learn from the Ilford material the main and maybe only
> difference between this stuff an normal VC paper is the optimization for
> very short exposures. This may not have much effect on longer exposures
> but you will have to experiment to find out. Also, I expect an e-mail or
> phone call to Ilford would elicit more information.
>
>
> --
> ---
> Richard Knoppow
> Los Angeles, CA, USA
> dickburk@ix,net com,com

The whole post is included because it is very important.

One more thing, Richard. Ilford makes an RC paper developing machine that
takes a print into developer, stop, fix and (it appears - no wash!) to a dry
print in something around a minute to eighty-seconds. I wonder if the
Express paper isn't intended just for such setups.

Thank you once again for your help, Richard. I believe there is a book to
be made of your contributions.

Very Best,
jjs

Re: Ilford EXPRESS paper


<jjs> wrote in message
news:13olf6vie0vhicb@news.supernews,com ...
>
> "Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix,net com,com > wrote in
> message news:13ol5oua49m6ue3@corp.supernews,com ...
>>
>> <jjs> wrote in message
>> news:13oiskeojnvdm1c@news.supernews,com ...
>>>
>>> "Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix,net com,com > wrote in
>>> message news:13oiq2hgu33rj54@corp.supernews,com ...
>>>
>>>> The ISO speed as given in the data sheet is no
>>>> faster than that for most variable contrast enlarging
>>>> paper. However, the paper is intended for use in
>>>> automatic printing machines where the exposure is to
>>>> relatively intense light for very short times, probably
>>>> less than a second. Most enlarging paper is intended
>>>> for exposures of from about 10 or 15 seconds to a
>>>> couple of minutes, typical exposures being around 15 to
>>>> 45 seconds. This paper is probaby adjusted so that
>>>> reciprocity effects, etc, are optimized for the short
>>>> exposure. This may mean a shift in overall contrast or
>>>> in the spacing of contrast with various filters or
>>>> other differences. I am sure the paper is quite usable
>>>> for normal printing but it may not behave in exactly
>>>> the way the contrast specs would have you expect. Since
>>>> your application is for hand processing I doubt if this
>>>> will cause any significant problems.
>>>
>>> Thank you again, Richard. I have just installed an
>>> Ilford VC head for 4x5 work and will try that paper at
>>> near 1:1 enlargement late next week. I wonder if this
>>> paper has a particularly energetic developer in the
>>> emulsion. I recall one time you posted how one could
>>> tell by having a developer of a simple solution. I would
>>> be most grateful if you could tell us again about that.
>>>
>>> Very Best,
>>>
>>> JJS
>>>
>> Ilford does not indicate if the paper has included
>> developer or not but I suspect it does not. One way to
>> tell is to "develop" a scrap of the paper in a strongly
>> alkaline solution. If there is incorporated developer it
>> will turn black. If not it won't. For the most part the
>> effect of incorporated developer when a normal developer
>> is used instead of an activator is to increase the speed
>> of development somewhat. That is the image will come up a
>> bit faster. It may also extend the capacity of the
>> developer somewhat. Activation results are never quite as
>> good as normal development.
>> From what I can learn from the Ilford material the
>> main and maybe only difference between this stuff an
>> normal VC paper is the optimization for very short
>> exposures. This may not have much effect on longer
>> exposures but you will have to experiment to find out.
>> Also, I expect an e-mail or phone call to Ilford would
>> elicit more information.
>>
>>
>> --
>> ---
>> Richard Knoppow
>> Los Angeles, CA, USA
>> dickburk@ix,net com,com
>
> The whole post is included because it is very important.
>
> One more thing, Richard. Ilford makes an RC paper
> developing machine that takes a print into developer,
> stop, fix and (it appears - no wash!) to a dry print in
> something around a minute to eighty-seconds. I wonder if
> the Express paper isn't intended just for such setups.
>
> Thank you once again for your help, Richard. I believe
> there is a book to be made of your contributions.
>
> Very Best,
> jjs
>
Thanks for the compliment:-)
Do you have a link to the Ilford machine? I am curious
about it. In the past a system called stabilization
processing was used for rapid access prints. This used a
bath in a stabilizer to eliminate the need for fixing and
washing but such prints are not stable for long periods.
While they won't turn black in the light as would be normal
for an unfixed print they will begin to degrade in weeks or
months unless subsequently fixed and washed. I don't think
this process was ever used for RC prints so I am curious
about what the Ilford machine does.
RC can be processed pretty quickly. Say 45 seconds
development, less than a minute for fixing (strong rapid
fixer) and perhaps a 1 minute wash. This is still longer
than the machine but pretty short.
Ilford does not appear to use incorporated developer in
its other RC papers but this may be an exception. There is
some image quality loss when an activation system is used
compared to normal development so I am skeptical it would be
used for photo-finishing.
A call or e-mail to Ilford should settle this.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix,net com,com

Re: Ilford EXPRESS paper


"Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix,net com,com > wrote in message
news:13oo309i8adbh8c@corp.supernews,com ...
> [jjjs]
>> One more thing, Richard. Ilford makes an RC paper developing machine that
>> takes a print into developer, stop, fix and (it appears - no wash!) to a
>> dry print in something around a minute to eighty-seconds. I wonder if the
>> Express paper isn't intended just for such setups.
>>
>> Thank you once again for your help, Richard. I believe there is a book
>> to be made of your contributions.
>>
>> Very Best,
>> jjs
>>
> Thanks for the compliment:-)
> Do you have a link to the Ilford machine?\

Yes, Sir. Here is one:
http :// www .ilfordphoto,com /applications/page.asp?n=105

> I am curious about it. In the past a system called stabilization
> processing was used for rapid access prints.

I remember those and it was before variable contrast papers. I don't think
they were made by Ilford. They were just terrible. For some reason I cannot
remember the name of them. Stabilite? Dunno. I'm sure I will remember when I
awake tomorrow. :)

Very best,
jjs

Re: Ilford EXPRESS paper


<jjs> wrote in message
news:13oo8j2ku8u6o60@news.supernews,com ...
>
> "Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix,net com,com > wrote in
> message news:13oo309i8adbh8c@corp.supernews,com ...
>> [jjjs]
>>> One more thing, Richard. Ilford makes an RC paper
>>> developing machine that takes a print into developer,
>>> stop, fix and (it appears - no wash!) to a dry print in
>>> something around a minute to eighty-seconds. I wonder if
>>> the Express paper isn't intended just for such setups.
>>>
>>> Thank you once again for your help, Richard. I believe
>>> there is a book to be made of your contributions.
>>>
>>> Very Best,
>>> jjs
>>>
>> Thanks for the compliment:-)
>> Do you have a link to the Ilford machine?\
>
> Yes, Sir. Here is one:
> http :// www .ilfordphoto,com /applications/page.asp?n=105
>
>> I am curious about it. In the past a system called
>> stabilization processing was used for rapid access
>> prints.
>
> I remember those and it was before variable contrast
> papers. I don't think they were made by Ilford. They were
> just terrible. For some reason I cannot remember the name
> of them. Stabilite? Dunno. I'm sure I will remember when I
> awake tomorrow. :)
>
> Very best,
> jjs
>

According to the above Ilford site the machine has a
washing step so this is NOT a stablization system but rather
a rapid-access roller-transport machine. Such machines are
common for color print processing, for instance, the
Kreonite machine.
This machine uses a complete developer rather than an
activator. Express paper may very well be suitable for use
in it but probably does not require such processing.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix,net com,com

Re: Ilford EXPRESS paper

On Jan 15, 10:10 am, "Richard Knoppow" <dickb...@ix,net com,com > wrote:
> <jjs> wrote in message
>
> news:13oo8j2ku8u6o60@news.supernews,com ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Richard Knoppow" <dickb...@ix,net com,com > wrote in
> > messagenews:13oo309i8adbh8c@corp.supernews,com ...
> >> [jjjs]
> >>> One more thing, Richard. Ilford makes an RC paper
> >>> developing machine that takes a print into developer,
> >>> stop, fix and (it appears - no wash!) to a dry print in
> >>> something around a minute to eighty-seconds. I wonder if
> >>> the Express paper isn't intended just for such setups.
>
> >>> Thank you once again for your help, Richard.  I believe
> >>> there is a book to be made of your contributions.
>
> >>> Very Best,
> >>> jjs
>
> >>     Thanks for the compliment:-)
> >>     Do you have a link to the Ilford machine?\
>
> > Yes, Sir. Here is one:
> > http :// www .ilfordphoto,com /applications/page.asp?n=105
>
> >>  I am curious about it. In the past a system called
> >> stabilization processing was used for rapid access
> >> prints.
>
> > I remember those and it was before variable contrast
> > papers. I don't think they were made by Ilford. They were
> > just terrible.  For some reason I cannot remember the name
> > of them. Stabilite? Dunno. I'm sure I will remember when I
> > awake tomorrow. :)
>
> > Very best,
> > jjs
>
>     According to the above Ilford site the machine has a
> washing step so this is NOT a stablization system but rather
> a rapid-access roller-transport machine. Such machines are
> common for color print processing, for instance, the
> Kreonite machine.
>      This machine uses a complete developer rather than an
> activator. Express paper may very well be suitable for use
> in it but probably does not require such processing.
>
> --
> ---
> Richard Knoppow
> Los Angeles, CA, USA
> dickb...@ix,net com,com - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Developer incorporated Ilford Papers--Iflford Multigrade Rapid, used
it, long term not so good, the paper base turned brown. OK for proofs
but didn't like the paper tone a couple of years later.

As I vaguely recall Ilford did at one time make stabilization
products, compatible with the Kodak Ektamatic chemicals and processor.

And the Ilford 2150 RC processor used RC papers; develop fix wash dry
in about 90 seconds, never used one lusted after it for years where I
worked. Had one of Ilford's super IR dryers incorporated.

Re: Ilford EXPRESS paper

On Jan 12, 6:08 pm, <jjs> wrote:
> "Richard Knoppow" <dickb...@ix,net com,com > wrote in message
>
> news:13oiq2hgu33rj54@corp.supernews,com ...
>
> > The ISO speed as given in the data sheet is no faster than that for
> > most variable contrast enlarging paper. However, the paper is intended for
> > use in automatic printing machines where the exposure is to relatively
> > intense light for very short times, probably less than a second. Most
> > enlarging paper is intended for exposures of from about 10 or 15 seconds
> > to a couple of minutes, typical exposures being around 15 to 45 seconds.
> > This paper is probaby adjusted so that reciprocity effects, etc, are
> > optimized for the short exposure. This may mean a shift in overall
> > contrast or in the spacing of contrast with various filters or other
> > differences. I am sure the paper is quite usable for normal printing but
> > it may not behave in exactly the way the contrast specs would have you
> > expect. Since your application is for hand processing I doubt if this will
> > cause any significant problems.
>
> Thank you again, Richard. I have just installed an Ilford VC head for 4x5
> work and will try that paper at near 1:1 enlargement late next week. I
> wonder if this paper has a particularly energetic developer in the emulsion.
> I recall one time you posted how one could tell by having a developer of a
> simple solution. I would be most grateful if you could tell us again about
> that.
>
> Very Best,
>
> JJS

Missed this one. The activator is just a strong alkaline solution with
some sulfite in it to prevent staining from oxidation products. A
solution of around 2% sodium carbonate should cause fogged paper to
darken rapidly if it has incorporated developer. The incorporated
developer is also activated by any normal print developer but, of
course, only adds to the developing agents in the developer. Probably
the incorporated developer extends the life of a conventional
developer somewhat. It is usual for the paper to have a somewhat
higher Dmax when developed in a conventional developer.

Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA