C-41 film in Rodinal

C-41 film in Rodinal

Please answer this question only if you have something useful to add.

While buying a C-41 kit for $16 from B&H may be a viable option in
the U.S., here it is impossible. Not only would I have to ship it
via surface mail (2-3 months by boat), but the post office just added
a $10 customs fee (plus taxes and other fees) to receive any package
from outside of Israel.

To recap, I have a lot of APS C-41 Kodak color negative film of
dubious quality, a bunch of cheap APS cameras and want to carry
one around for snapshots.

Doing a lot of web searching, I've found out how to open and remove the
film from the cartridge. I've found the specs on the film, and think
that I can convert a Paterson reel to the proper spacing without
preventing it from being useable for normal (35mm) film.

I've found several web pages with examples of prints from XP-2 and
similar film developed in Rodinal, and comments about developing
color film the same way, but absolutely no specifications.

I happen to have Rodinal, getting other developers may be near
impossible at the moment.

If you have any information about dilution and development time,
I would appreciate it. For me the best temperature would be 75F, the
outside temperature went from the low 60's to the mid 70's in the
last week.

Thanks,

Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson,com N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http :// geoffstechno.livejournal,com /

Re: C-41 film in Rodinal

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson,com > wrote in message
news:slrnft80l1.hfr.gsm@cable.mendelson,com ...
> Please answer this question only if you have something useful to add.
>
> While buying a C-41 kit for $16 from B&H may be a viable option in
> the U.S., here it is impossible. Not only would I have to ship it
> via surface mail (2-3 months by boat), but the post office just added
> a $10 customs fee (plus taxes and other fees) to receive any package
> from outside of Israel.
>
> To recap, I have a lot of APS C-41 Kodak color negative film of
> dubious quality, a bunch of cheap APS cameras and want to carry
> one around for snapshots.
>
> Doing a lot of web searching, I've found out how to open and remove the
> film from the cartridge. I've found the specs on the film, and think
> that I can convert a Paterson reel to the proper spacing without
> preventing it from being useable for normal (35mm) film.
>
> I've found several web pages with examples of prints from XP-2 and
> similar film developed in Rodinal, and comments about developing
> color film the same way, but absolutely no specifications.
>
> I happen to have Rodinal, getting other developers may be near
> impossible at the moment.
>
> If you have any information about dilution and development time,
> I would appreciate it. For me the best temperature would be 75F, the
> outside temperature went from the low 60's to the mid 70's in the
> last week.

Well, you could mix your own C-41 chemistry if the components are more
readily available to you instead of getting that kit of ready made
chemistry. Did a quick/rough search on the net and came up with

http :// www .bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/c41_ra4_chemicals.htm

Perhaps a more rigorous/thorough search on your part would yield more and
better results.

Re: C-41 film in Rodinal

Lawrence Akutagawa wrote:
> Well, you could mix your own C-41 chemistry if the components are more
> readily available to you instead of getting that kit of ready made
> chemistry. Did a quick/rough search on the net and came up with
>
> http :// www .bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/c41_ra4_chemicals.htm
>
> Perhaps a more rigorous/thorough search on your part would yield more and
> better results.

Thanks,

Unfortunately, the all of the chemicals required would need to be purchased
from a lab supply which only sells to coporations or imported.

I can't even get sodium chloride. All sorts of salt is available here, but
there are anticaking agents added. I've used "kosher" salt for pickling
and it works, but there are still traces of something else in it.

Most camera stores have stopped selling film and their mini-labs
have either disapeared or morphed from one-hour-photo to
one-hour-prints-from-digital.

Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson,com N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http :// geoffstechno.livejournal,com /

Re: C-41 film in Rodinal


"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson,com > wrote in message
news:slrnft80l1.hfr.gsm@cable.mendelson,com ...
> Please answer this question only if you have something useful to add.
>
> While buying a C-41 kit for $16 from B&H may be a viable option in
> the U.S., here it is impossible. Not only would I have to ship it
> via surface mail (2-3 months by boat), but the post office just added
> a $10 customs fee (plus taxes and other fees) to receive any package
> from outside of Israel.
>
> To recap, I have a lot of APS C-41 Kodak color negative film of
> dubious quality, a bunch of cheap APS cameras and want to carry
> one around for snapshots.
>
> Doing a lot of web searching, I've found out how to open and remove the
> film from the cartridge. I've found the specs on the film, and think
> that I can convert a Paterson reel to the proper spacing without
> preventing it from being useable for normal (35mm) film.
>
> I've found several web pages with examples of prints from XP-2 and
> similar film developed in Rodinal, and comments about developing
> color film the same way, but absolutely no specifications.
>
> I happen to have Rodinal, getting other developers may be near
> impossible at the moment.
>
> If you have any information about dilution and development time,
> I would appreciate it. For me the best temperature would be 75F, the
> outside temperature went from the low 60's to the mid 70's in the
> last week.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Geoff.

Isn't XP-2 a C41 process film without orange mask?

I've tried C-41 film in B&W chems, and the results were less than
spectacular. The orange mask makes it difficult to print, and the contrast
was pretty soft. If there is a Rodional dilution for maximum contrast, that
would be your starting point. Supposedly there is a chemical treatment that
removes the orange mask, but if you could get the ingredients for that, you
could probably easily get C41 chems.

Surely there must be some minilabs still extant. Maybe you could make
arrangements to purchase a portion of their chems. Some of the minilabs use
small (1Liter) of chemicals, supplied as a kit form. You would mix perhaps
half the kit and save the balance of it for replenishment- maybe 10-20mL per
roll. You would have four workings solutions (stored in air-tight containers
with minimal exposure to air- I use plastic soft drink bottles and squeeze
them until the chem is at the top), and you would add replenishment after
eash use.

C41 processing is not difficult, just time and temp critical. Developer temp
is usually 100F +/- 0.5 degrees, however according Kodak, 'drift-by'
temperature control is acceptable. ('Drift-by'-- assume the temperature will
drop 2 degrees during the developer time. Start out 1 degree high, end up 1
degree low, the average will be correct.)

Just for the record, it is possible to develope standard B&W film in C41
chemicals-- do NOT use the bleach! The developer is slow and soft contrast;
the fixer is also slow. The stabilizer is used as a wetting agent only, as
there are no dyes to stabilize.

Re: C-41 film in Rodinal

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> Please answer this question only if you have something useful to add.
>
> While buying a C-41 kit for $16 from B&H may be a viable option in
> the U.S., here it is impossible. Not only would I have to ship it
> via surface mail (2-3 months by boat), but the post office just added
> a $10 customs fee (plus taxes and other fees) to receive any package
> from outside of Israel.
>
> To recap, I have a lot of APS C-41 Kodak color negative film of
> dubious quality, a bunch of cheap APS cameras and want to carry
> one around for snapshots.
>
> Doing a lot of web searching, I've found out how to open and remove the
> film from the cartridge. I've found the specs on the film, and think
> that I can convert a Paterson reel to the proper spacing without
> preventing it from being useable for normal (35mm) film.
>
> I've found several web pages with examples of prints from XP-2 and
> similar film developed in Rodinal, and comments about developing
> color film the same way, but absolutely no specifications.
>
> I happen to have Rodinal, getting other developers may be near
> impossible at the moment.
>
> If you have any information about dilution and development time,
> I would appreciate it. For me the best temperature would be 75F, the
> outside temperature went from the low 60's to the mid 70's in the
> last week.
I haven't done it with Rodinal, but I did it with Ilford
LC29. I used the time for HP5 as my starting point (6:30
with LC29), and found that was pretty close to as good as it
got.

I ran a couple of rolls of C-41 through B&W dev to see how
good I could get it, but really it was a waste of time. I
got some reasonable results out of it, but the negs are
fairly low contrast, on a VERY dark brown base. Impossible
to print, and difficult to scan.

If you can't get hold of C-41 chem, I'm sure there'll be
some minilabs around still. Alternatively if you want to
process your own film in B&W chem then get B&W film. If you
persist doing C41 film in B&W chem, I'm sure you'll find
that you'll do 1 or 2 rolls, and realise that the results
aren't worth the effort.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Geoff.

Re: C-41 film in Rodinal

Doug Jewell wrote:
> I ran a couple of rolls of C-41 through B&W dev to see how
> good I could get it, but really it was a waste of time. I
> got some reasonable results out of it, but the negs are
> fairly low contrast, on a VERY dark brown base. Impossible
> to print, and difficult to scan.
>
> If you can't get hold of C-41 chem, I'm sure there'll be
> some minilabs around still. Alternatively if you want to
> process your own film in B&W chem then get B&W film. If you
> persist doing C41 film in B&W chem, I'm sure you'll find
> that you'll do 1 or 2 rolls, and realise that the results
> aren't worth the effort.

Thanks,

Does anyone still sell APS black and white film? Did they ever?

If I was in the U.S., I'd just go to a thrift store and buy a bunch
of 35mm point and shoot cameras. I have lots of 35mm film in the
fridge.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson,com N3OWJ/4X1GM

Re: C-41 film in Rodinal

gsm@mendelson,com (Geoffrey S. Mendelson) schrieb:
>Doug Jewell wrote:

>> I ran a couple of rolls of C-41 through B&W dev to see how
>> good I could get it, but really it was a waste of time. I
>> got some reasonable results out of it, but the negs are
>> fairly low contrast, on a VERY dark brown base. Impossible
>> to print, and difficult to scan.

Yep.

>Does anyone still sell APS black and white film?

No,

>Did they ever?

Never.

There was a monochrome C41-APS available from Kodak, but never a plain
bw film like Tmax or APX.

Re your original problem - you may develop the film in Rodinal or any
other ordinary bw film. Just remember that the C41-Dev is a pretty
strong formulation in combination with high temperature - to emulate
that you´ll need a rather long dev time (or concentration of
developer).

You pretty much can´t overdevelop the C41 film.

Last year I developed a few rolls of noname C41 films with Rodinal -
the final aim was to redevelop those rolls in color by bleaching
(rehalogenating) the films and developing, bleachfixing them in
C41-chemistry afterwards. It worked fine - the color couplers are
still functional after bw development and weeks of hanging in the
cabinet....

Just don´t expect a fine quality from those films - grain will be on
the coarse side, contrast is a gamble, the film mask a pain to deal
with.

>Geoff.

Gruss,
Roman
--
"An MDCCCXII/Mémorable par la campagne contre les Russes/
Sous le préfectura de Jules Doazan."
"Vu et approuvé par nous commandant russe de la ville de Coblentz/
le 1er janvier 1814."

Re: C-41 film in Rodinal

In article <ie8jt3l6ks11gnf3e2soqdk9geomjm1jvi@4ax,com >,
Roman J. Rohleder <rjrohleder@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>Re your original problem - you may develop the film in Rodinal or any
>other ordinary bw film. Just remember that the C41-Dev is a pretty
>strong formulation in combination with high temperature - to emulate
>that you´ll need a rather long dev time (or concentration of
>developer).

And you will still get results which are too low in contrast and have
too small a difference in density between the silver image and base tint
to be printable on conventional black-and-white materials.

>You pretty much can´t overdevelop the C41 film.
>
>Last year I developed a few rolls of noname C41 films with Rodinal -
>the final aim was to redevelop those rolls in color by bleaching
>(rehalogenating) the films and developing, bleachfixing them in
>C41-chemistry afterwards. It worked fine - the color couplers are
>still functional after bw development and weeks of hanging in the
>cabinet....

Well. It "worked fine" because you wanted color results. If you'd
tried to print the black and white negatives which were your intermediate
step, I don't think you would be so happy about it.

--
Thor Lancelot Simon tls@rek.tjls,com

"The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to
be abandoned or transcended, there is no problem." - Noam Chomsky

Re: C-41 film in Rodinal

In article <slrnftj5qn.qkg.gsm@cable.mendelson,com >,
gsm@mendelson,com (Geoffrey S. Mendelson) wrote:

> Does anyone still sell APS black and white film? Did they ever?

Maybe you could find people with really small hands to custom trim it
into sheets and with a very special camera and holders use it. You could
market it as ultra small format. Coupled with a in camera digitization
device it will be.....

Guarantied to sell like hot cakes in the US market!

>:^D

--
Reality is a picture perfected and never looking back.

Re: C-41 film in Rodinal

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

>While buying a C-41 kit for $16 from B&H may be a viable option in the
>U.S., here it is impossible.

What kind of camera stuff does Golden Camera sell? Or Jugend Brothers? No
chemistry? Or is it still pricey even though they (might) buy in quantities?

Re: C-41 film in Rodinal

jjs wrote:
>
> What kind of camera stuff does Golden Camera sell? Or Jugend Brothers? No
> chemistry? Or is it still pricey even though they (might) buy in quantities?

Digital. I happen to own the last set of 35mm reloadable casettes and
the last 100 foot roll of black and white film that Jugend sold. I also
had their last bottle of HC-110, but it had turned bad from age before I
got it and I had to dump it. These were bought over a year ago.

At the time, they did not say they would never never get any more of
either in. The salesperson answered the question with an Israeli shrug,
which means, I'm not going to commit myself, but don't expect to see them.

If not for Betzalel Institute, a "world famous" art school, and a few
smaller ones that aren't, there would be no film sold in this
country except disposable cameras and c-41 color. Most of that is sold
to tourists.

Everyone has gone over to digital.

The day Betzalel drops their film classes, will be the day the last store
that still carries darkroom stuff drops it too.

Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson,com N3OWJ/4X1GM

Re: C-41 film in Rodinal

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 06:29:01 +0000 (UTC), gsm@mendelson,com (Geoffrey
S. Mendelson) wrote:

>Digital. I happen to own the last set of 35mm reloadable casettes and
>the last 100 foot roll of black and white film that Jugend sold. I also
>had their last bottle of HC-110, but it had turned bad from age before I
>got it and I had to dump it. These were bought over a year ago.

Now that would take some doing ! I've seen HC110 that was 10 years out
of date that was as orange as Kodak Indicator Stop Bath and it still
worked fine.

JD

Re: C-41 film in Rodinal

John wrote:

> Now that would take some doing ! I've seen HC110 that was 10 years out
> of date that was as orange as Kodak Indicator Stop Bath and it still
> worked fine.

This was almost as dark as a cup of coffee. Just to make sure, I put
some undiluted in a container and stuck a trimming of PAN-F in it.
After 5 minutes in room light it had turned a light grey. :-(

By that time I would have expected it to be black.

BTW, it was the "EURO" liquid instead of the U.S. "syrup".

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson,com N3OWJ/4X1GM

Re: C-41 film in Rodinal

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson,com > wrote in message
news:slrnftk6p3.1jn.gsm@cable.mendelson,com ...
> jjs wrote:
>>
>> What kind of camera stuff does Golden Camera sell? Or Jugend Brothers?
>> No
>> chemistry? Or is it still pricey even though they (might) buy in
>> quantities?
>
> Digital. I happen to own the last set of 35mm reloadable casettes and
> the last 100 foot roll of black and white film that Jugend sold.

I should have realized that.

> If not for Betzalel Institute, a "world famous" art school, and a few
> smaller ones that aren't, there would be no film sold in this
> country except disposable cameras and c-41 color. Most of that is sold
> to tourists.

Is it difficult to bypass import customs somehow? Frankly, while I truly
understand the rationale for taxation, it nonetheless seems out of control.

Re: C-41 film in Rodinal

jjs wrote:
> Is it difficult to bypass import customs somehow? Frankly, while I truly
> understand the rationale for taxation, it nonetheless seems out of control.

The only way to bypass customs is to have a tourist bring it in their
luggage. Since almost all developing chemicals are forbidden in luggage
now, it just leaves film, which has a good chance of being X-rayed (and
not the weak X-rays of an airport checking scanner) or gamma-ray scanned.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson,com N3OWJ/4X1GM