B&W film developing questions

Re: B&W film developing questions


"____" <internetphobic@deletedmail,com > wrote in message
news:internetphobic-EB7FCA.17182405012008@newsgroups,com cast,net ...
> In article <flopdd$sag$1@reader2.panix,com >,
> tls@panix,com (Thor Lancelot Simon) wrote:
>
>> The problem, of course, is that it also reduces true film
>> speed by as much as one full stop -- so in practice, you
>> end up with 50
>> speed film, at most, and then you need a tripod, unless
>> you're shooting
>> snowscapes at noon.
>
> Define film speed :) Reduces? of just shows the speed of
> older emulsions
> for what they really are?
>
The published speeds of films are determined by a well
controlled standard method. The speed does vary with the
developer and the current ISO standard requires that the
published speed note the type of developer used for the
test. The total variation of speed with developer type is
not very great, its limits are probably no more than + or -
about 3/4 to one stop. The fastest speeds are obtained from
developers with Phenidone or its derivatives (but not all
Phenidone developers increase speed) such as T-Max and T-Max
RS, Xtol, or Ilford Microphen. The lowest speeds from
extra-fine-grain developers like Microdol-X or Ilford
Perceptol either at full strength. Developers like D-76 fall
into the middle somewhere with the speed increasing
developers yeilding about 3/4 stop more speed and the
extra-fine-grain developers about 3/4 stop less speed. When
diluted the extra-fine-grain developers mentioned above
deliver about the same speed as D-76 but loose their
extra-fine-grain property and deliver grain also about the
same as D-76.
Rodinal delivers somewhat less speed than D-76 but not
much, maybe 1/2 stop. Generally the underexposure latitude
of most films will accomodate this.
Note that the ISO standard is designed to calculate the
minimum exposure that results in good tone rendition of
shadows. The reason is to minimise grain, which generally
increases with density, and to maximize sharpness. sharpness
is decreased by "irradiation" which is the spreading out of
highlights in the negative due to internal reflection in the
emulsion. Modern emulsions are not as vulnerable to either
of these effects as the films made when the standard was
designed.
For many purposes the tone rendition can be improved by
increasing exposure a bit, usually reducing speed by about
20% will do it. But, of course, the exposure is due not only
to the film speed by the method of metering and decisions
made by the photographer as to what consitutes the shadow
areas of the scene being photographed where he/she wants
detail.
Note that the ISO standard being discussed applies only
to B&W still negative film, there are different standards
for motion picture films, color films, transparency films,
etc.
Rodinal is a good, general purpose, developer whose main
virtue is its convenience and reliability. It delivers good
tone rendition from most films at the cost of somewhat more
grain than developers like D-76 or Xtol but the T-Max
developers and Microphen are nearly as grainy.
Rodinal tends to produce somewhat finer grain when its
diluted. I generally use it at around 1:50 but that is also
to get convenient times for the films I work with.
My "standard" developer for most work is D-76 diluted
1:1 and used once. I also use Microdol-X or Perceptol full
strength for 35mm 100T-Max because the combination delivers
extremely fine grain with reasonable speed.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix,net com,com

Re: B&W film developing questions

In article <flopdd$sag$1@reader2.panix,com >,
tls@panix,com (Thor Lancelot Simon) writes:
>
> There is a
> myth that circulates that Rodinal is a fine-grain developer -- it is
> quite certainly _not_ that.

In several years of perusing various online forums, this is the first I've
heard of a myth of Rodinal being a fine-grain developer. Maybe such a myth
makes the rounds through (non-electronic) word of mouth or some other
means, but online, no discussion of Rodinal seems to elude prominent
claims of it being a NON-fine-grain developer.

--
Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks,com
http :// www .rodsbooks,com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

Re: B&W film developing questions


"G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme,com > wrote in message
news:13nu7g7ikfj9be3@corp.supernews,com ...
> Ok, I just developed my first 3 rolls of film at home, and
> except for a little bit of dust on the last roll the
> results are excellent. I'll sporadically be developing
> more over the next couple of months.
>
> I'm using Rodinal, Arista's indicator stop bath, Arista's
> Universal non-hardening fixer, and Kentflo.
>
> Questions:
>
> 1. The Rodinal says undiluted it will last 6 months. Can
> I be safe to assume it will last that long?
>
> Also, with the Rodinal I've been developing only one roll
> per mix because I'm new at this. With Accufine, the
> previous developer I used, I would do a couple of rolls in
> one canister before dumping back into my storage container
> and replenishing. And after 3 months at the same
> developing time my negs were a little light.
>
> Can I develop more than one roll of film in my Rodinal?
>
> 2. The stop is the least of my worries, right? It should
> be ok for a couple dozen rolls over the next couple of
> months?
>
> 3. What's the expected longevity of the fixer?
>
> Thanks,
> Greg

Rodinal has a very long life. It can turn nearly black
and still work. The working solution should be used only
once and discarded. While the used developer will still
develop it will be hard to predict the results. However, if
the amount of solution is reasonably large you can probably
get a second roll by increasing time by about 20%.

You can re-use the stop bath in a single session as long
as it remains acid (the indicator will show this) but its
not good practice to save it between sessions.

Fixer has relatively low capacity for complete fixing and
complete fixing is important to the lifetime of the
developed film. The rule of thumb is to discard the fixer
when _clearing_ time has doubled but IMO this is stretching
things a bit. Clearing time is measured by fixing out a
scrap of the film you are working with. Soak the sample in
water for a couple of minutes before testing it because wet
film fixes at a different rate than dry film. Test a sample
when the fixer is first mixed and before its used. Note the
time it takes for the film to become completely clear. The
rule of thumb is to fix for twice this time and to discard
the bath than the clearing time doubles.

Unless you work with very small quantities of film its
best to use two successive fixing baths. The film or paper
is fixed in each bath for half the normal fixing time. The
first bath does most of the work leaving the second bath
relatively fresh so it can clean up any unfixed halide.
After the first bath becomes exhausted its dumped. The
second bath then becomes the first bath and a new second
bath is mixed. Kodak has full instructions about this in
their Darkroom Dataguide booklet.

In addition to your processing method outlined above I
would add the use of a wash aid. I prefer Kodak Hypo
Clearing Agent because Kodak has published the details of
its contents and experimental evidence that it works. I
believe that Ilford's wash aid is essentially identical. Teh
wash aid will reduce film washing time from about 30 minutes
to about 5 minutes. The wash aid can also remove some
otherwise insoluble fixer reaction products.

Use the wetting agent after washing as you are doing.
Because the wetting agent can collect gelatin from the film
and will support mold it should not be saved between
sessions. It can be used for more than one roll of film but
should be discarded after you finish working.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix,net com,com


Similar advice applies to paper development.

Re: B&W film developing questions

Richard Knoppow wrote:
>
> Fixer has relatively low capacity for complete fixing and
> complete fixing is important to the lifetime of the
> developed film. The rule of thumb is to discard the fixer
> when clearing time has doubled but IMO this is stretching
> things a bit. Clearing time is measured by fixing out a
> scrap of the film you are working with. Soak the sample in
> water for a couple of minutes before testing it because wet
> film fixes at a different rate than dry film. Test a sample
> when the fixer is first mixed and before its used. Note the
> time it takes for the film to become completely clear. The
> rule of thumb is to fix for twice this time and to discard
> the bath than the clearing time doubles.

Thanks Richard. I'll have to do this. I was just using the times
suggested on the fixer bottle.

From reading your post and Lawrence's I can test by snipping off the
leader of a 35mm roll? Just drop it in some fixer and time how long it
takes to clear?

I also have a roll of 120 Tri-X 400 that I opened just to practice
loading a reel with.

>
> Unless you work with very small quantities of film its
> best to use two successive fixing baths. The film or paper
> is fixed in each bath for half the normal fixing time. The
> first bath does most of the work leaving the second bath
> relatively fresh so it can clean up any unfixed halide.
> After the first bath becomes exhausted its dumped. The
> second bath then becomes the first bath and a new second
> bath is mixed. Kodak has full instructions about this in
> their Darkroom Dataguide booklet.
>
> In addition to your processing method outlined above I
> would add the use of a wash aid. I prefer Kodak Hypo
> Clearing Agent because Kodak has published the details of
> its contents and experimental evidence that it works. I
> believe that Ilford's wash aid is essentially identical. Teh
> wash aid will reduce film washing time from about 30 minutes
> to about 5 minutes. The wash aid can also remove some
> otherwise insoluble fixer reaction products.
>
> Use the wetting agent after washing as you are doing.
> Because the wetting agent can collect gelatin from the film
> and will support mold it should not be saved between
> sessions. It can be used for more than one roll of film but
> should be discarded after you finish working.

So in this workflow it would be develop, stop, fix, hypo, wash, and
wetting agent? In class we washed prints in hypo but not film.

Oh, and regarding grain, my instructor actually suggested that I use
Xtol for now. But during class he told us that we'll get larger, more
noticeable grain if we using something like Rodinal/HC-110. That's why
I'm currently playing with it.

The bigger issue is that I'm getting used to developing at home but
there is no way I'm going to be able to print at home. Does anyone have
any current suggestions on finding a rental darkroom in LA these days?
I'm currently signed up for another B&W class in Burbank, but I'm not
going to have time to these next few months to actually do any
assignments, I just want to print stuff from the last 4 months.

I was thinking about calling up Translight Colors. Anyone heard good or
bad?

Thanks,
Greg

Re: B&W film developing questions


"G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme,com > wrote in message
news:13o36j825t8r910@corp.supernews,com ...
snip
> So in this workflow it would be develop, stop, fix, hypo, wash, and
> wetting agent? In class we washed prints in hypo but not film.
>
Just for the record. "fixer" and "hypo" are basically the same thing. I
realize that when you say "hypo", you mean "hypo clearing agent"(sometimes
called "HCA"). The purpose of the hypo clearing agent is to remove the hypo
or fixer from the film or print.

Back in the 'good old days' when prints were actually paper and not
resin-coated plastic stuff, the paper print would soak up a lot of
chemicals. You needed to wash a print for perhaps an hour or so to remove
all the fixer from the porous paper. (Ricard K., please feel free to jump in
and correct me or elaborate-- I'm certain you are far more knowledgeable on
this!). A hypo clearing agent would neutralize the hypo (or fixer), so that
a shorter wash time (perhaps 30 minutes?) would suffice.

Film, being a non-porous material (or certainly less porous than fiber-based
prints) doesn't soak up as much chemistry, so a hypo clearing agent is not
as important. If it's critical to you that your negatives last to the next
millenia, than you may want to use it anyway...!

As for not being able to print at home, there are many people who make do
with printing in a bathroom. Some use a cart (Rubbermaid? Check office
supply or food service supply companies.) to hold their enlarger and store
their chems, trays, and stuff so they can wheel everything into the bathroom
for a session, then wheel it all into a closet for storage. You can put
velcro around the window frame and stick a piece of faric or cardboard over
the window. There is also a gentleman who espouses 'one-tray' processing.
I've never tried it myself, but perhaps for the temporary darkroom, it may
be the answer. Maybe someone here can supply the link to his website, or to
websites for temporary darkrooms. Using the kitchen is also a possibility,
but some people don't like that idea because of the possibility of food
being contaminated-- but for darkroom work, cleanliness is important, so
wipe up those chem spills!
For me, you can take away my permanent darkrooms when you can pry the
staticmaster brush from my cold, dead fingers!

Re: B&W film developing questions

Ken Hart wrote:
> "G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme,com > wrote in message
> news:13o36j825t8r910@corp.supernews,com ...
> snip
>> So in this workflow it would be develop, stop, fix, hypo, wash, and
>> wetting agent? In class we washed prints in hypo but not film.
>>
> Just for the record. "fixer" and "hypo" are basically the same thing. I
> realize that when you say "hypo", you mean "hypo clearing agent"(sometimes
> called "HCA"). The purpose of the hypo clearing agent is to remove the hypo
> or fixer from the film or print.
>
> Back in the 'good old days' when prints were actually paper and not
> resin-coated plastic stuff, the paper print would soak up a lot of
> chemicals. You needed to wash a print for perhaps an hour or so to remove
> all the fixer from the porous paper. (Ricard K., please feel free to jump in
> and correct me or elaborate-- I'm certain you are far more knowledgeable on
> this!). A hypo clearing agent would neutralize the hypo (or fixer), so that
> a shorter wash time (perhaps 30 minutes?) would suffice.
>
> Film, being a non-porous material (or certainly less porous than fiber-based
> prints) doesn't soak up as much chemistry, so a hypo clearing agent is not
> as important. If it's critical to you that your negatives last to the next
> millenia, than you may want to use it anyway...!

Ah, cool, thanks for the clarification.

>
> As for not being able to print at home, there are many people who make do
> with printing in a bathroom. Some use a cart (Rubbermaid? Check office
> supply or food service supply companies.) to hold their enlarger and store
> their chems, trays, and stuff so they can wheel everything into the bathroom
> for a session, then wheel it all into a closet for storage. You can put
> velcro around the window frame and stick a piece of faric or cardboard over
> the window. There is also a gentleman who espouses 'one-tray' processing.
> I've never tried it myself, but perhaps for the temporary darkroom, it may
> be the answer. Maybe someone here can supply the link to his website, or to
> websites for temporary darkrooms. Using the kitchen is also a possibility,
> but some people don't like that idea because of the possibility of food
> being contaminated-- but for darkroom work, cleanliness is important, so
> wipe up those chem spills!
> For me, you can take away my permanent darkrooms when you can pry the
> staticmaster brush from my cold, dead fingers!

Thanks for the tips. I could maybe do it in my kitchen but I'd have to
cover a lot of windows, the kitchen is open to the small living and
dining area. And the bathroom, no, I barely have room to stand in it.

Greg

Re: B&W film developing questions

In article <13o3edgqdla9j1f@corp.supernews,com >, G.T.
getnews1@dslextreme,com says...

> Thanks for the tips. I could maybe do it in my kitchen but I'd have to
> cover a lot of windows, the kitchen is open to the small living and
> dining area. And the bathroom, no, I barely have room to stand in it.
>
As long as there's somewhee to stand the enlarger that's all you really
need - expose the paper, load it in a drum and then process it in the
kitchen in normal light.

Re: B&W film developing questions

Rob Morley wrote:
> In article <13o3edgqdla9j1f@corp.supernews,com >, G.T.
> getnews1@dslextreme,com says...
>
>> Thanks for the tips. I could maybe do it in my kitchen but I'd have to
>> cover a lot of windows, the kitchen is open to the small living and
>> dining area. And the bathroom, no, I barely have room to stand in it.
>>
> As long as there's somewhee to stand the enlarger that's all you really
> need - expose the paper, load it in a drum and then process it in the
> kitchen in normal light.

Can you point me to daylight print processing equipment? I've been
doing a little Googling but haven't found anything definitive yet, and
when I do, I still won't know what workflow works best.

If I were to use a drum what would I need? Is it similar to processing
film?

Print, load in drum, fill with developer, agitate, empty developer, fill
with stop and agitate, empty, fill with fixer and agitate, empty. Then
hypo clear, wash, and dry?

Would the last paragraph be considered the one tray method?

Thanks,
Greg

Re: B&W film developing questions

G.T. wrote:
> Rob Morley wrote:
> If I were to use a drum what would I need? Is it similar to processing
> film?

It depends. The simple ones are drums that are like daylight tanks
for stainless steel reels, they have a light trap at the fill end
that does not depend upon a reel.

You stuff the print in it in the dark, close it up and and develop.
Simple drums get rolled on the table, more complex systems have
rolling machines.

Normally they are used for color because consistent agitation and
temperature control are necessary.

There are all sorts of drums for the rolling machines including one
that holds sheet film in an interrupted spiral. You would use it for
small prints if you want to develop several at a time.

Look up Jobo.

> Print, load in drum, fill with developer, agitate, empty developer, fill
> with stop and agitate, empty, fill with fixer and agitate, empty. Then
> hypo clear, wash, and dry?

Since the steps after printing can be done in daylight with no special
equipment, you may not want to use the drum for them.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson,com N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http :// geoffstechno.livejournal,com /

Re: B&W film developing questions

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> G.T. wrote:
>> Rob Morley wrote:
>> If I were to use a drum what would I need? Is it similar to processing
>> film?
>
> It depends. The simple ones are drums that are like daylight tanks
> for stainless steel reels, they have a light trap at the fill end
> that does not depend upon a reel.
>
> You stuff the print in it in the dark, close it up and and develop.
> Simple drums get rolled on the table, more complex systems have
> rolling machines.
>
> Normally they are used for color because consistent agitation and
> temperature control are necessary.
>
> There are all sorts of drums for the rolling machines including one
> that holds sheet film in an interrupted spiral. You would use it for
> small prints if you want to develop several at a time.
>
> Look up Jobo.
>
>> Print, load in drum, fill with developer, agitate, empty developer, fill
>> with stop and agitate, empty, fill with fixer and agitate, empty. Then
>> hypo clear, wash, and dry?
>
> Since the steps after printing can be done in daylight with no special
> equipment, you may not want to use the drum for them.
>

Ok, at what step can I switch to daylight equipment? Do I have to stop
and fix a little before switching to daylight? Or can I do the stop and
fix in daylight?

Thanks,
Greg

Re: B&W film developing questions

G.T. wrote:
> Ok, at what step can I switch to daylight equipment? Do I have to stop
> and fix a little before switching to daylight? Or can I do the stop and
> fix in daylight?

No, you do the stop and fix in the dark and switch to daylight
for rinse (first wash), hypo clear and wash.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson,com N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http :// geoffstechno.livejournal,com /

Re: B&W film developing questions

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> G.T. wrote:
>> Ok, at what step can I switch to daylight equipment? Do I have to stop
>> and fix a little before switching to daylight? Or can I do the stop and
>> fix in daylight?
>
> No, you do the stop and fix in the dark and switch to daylight
> for rinse (first wash), hypo clear and wash.
>

Thanks. I'll have to start putting a list together and approximate cost
to put this all together.

Greg

Re: B&W film developing questions

In article <13o51kk6nv13m33@corp.supernews,com >,
"G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme,com > writes:
>
> Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
>> G.T. wrote:
>>
>>> Print, load in drum, fill with developer, agitate, empty developer, fill
>>> with stop and agitate, empty, fill with fixer and agitate, empty. Then
>>> hypo clear, wash, and dry?
>>
>> Since the steps after printing can be done in daylight with no special
>> equipment, you may not want to use the drum for them.
>
> Ok, at what step can I switch to daylight equipment? Do I have to stop
> and fix a little before switching to daylight? Or can I do the stop and
> fix in daylight?

I suspect that there's some miscommunication going on here -- or maybe I'm
just misreading/misjudging peoples' posts.

When using the traditional open trays for B&W enlarging, the dry-side
printing, developer, stop bath, and beginning of fixer steps should be
done in the dark or under safelight conditions. Normal room lights can be
turned on once the print's been in the fixer for a few seconds. (You might
even be able to get away with this with the print in the stop bath, but
I've not tried that.)

When using a print processing drum, the room lights can be turned on as
soon as the print is in the drum and the drum is sealed up but before you
begin processing the print. The developing, stopping, fixing, and washing
can all be done in normal room light, just like film processing in a film
tank. (The print is of course still in the dark, just sealed inside its
drum.)

Drums are frequently used for color processing, but they work fine for
B&W. Some online retailers might list them under color paper processing
equipment. Another option is known as an "orbital processor." This is
basically a covered tray with provision to pour chemicals in and out.

I've heard of people using two-room setups for print processing. For
instance, you could set up an enlarger in a bedroom or a large closet and
then, using a print processing drum, do the actual processing in a
bathroom, kitchen, or laundry room. Personally, I think I'd prefer a
compact bathroom setup, using the bathtub as a place to hold the trays and
putting the enlarger on a cart or balancing it on the toilet or sink.
Vertical slot processors can also be handy in space-constrained
situations, although they tend to be pricey.

Concerning light-proofing a room, note that this is easier if you're
willing to restrict your darkroom sessions to night. A light leak that
would fog paper in the day might be harmless at night.

If space is limited, you'll need to select an enlarger carefully. A few
models fold up, sometimes into suitcase-style boxes. These could be handy
in cramped quarters. With a little more storage space, an enlarger on a
wheeled cart might be better.

--
Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks,com
http :// www .rodsbooks,com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

Re: B&W film developing questions


"Rod Smith" <rodsmith@nessus.rodsbooks,com > wrote in message
news:pc5b55-5n7.ln1@speaker.rodsbooks,com ...
> In article <13o51kk6nv13m33@corp.supernews,com >,
> "G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme,com > writes:
>>
>> Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
>>> G.T. wrote:
>>>
>>>> Print, load in drum, fill with developer, agitate, empty developer,
>>>> fill
>>>> with stop and agitate, empty, fill with fixer and agitate, empty. Then
>>>> hypo clear, wash, and dry?
>>>
>>> Since the steps after printing can be done in daylight with no special
>>> equipment, you may not want to use the drum for them.
>>
>> Ok, at what step can I switch to daylight equipment? Do I have to stop
>> and fix a little before switching to daylight? Or can I do the stop and
>> fix in daylight?
>
> I suspect that there's some miscommunication going on here -- or maybe I'm
> just misreading/misjudging peoples' posts.
>
> When using the traditional open trays for B&W enlarging, the dry-side
> printing, developer, stop bath, and beginning of fixer steps should be
> done in the dark or under safelight conditions. Normal room lights can be
> turned on once the print's been in the fixer for a few seconds. (You might
> even be able to get away with this with the print in the stop bath, but
> I've not tried that.)
>
> When using a print processing drum, the room lights can be turned on as
> soon as the print is in the drum and the drum is sealed up but before you
> begin processing the print. The developing, stopping, fixing, and washing
> can all be done in normal room light, just like film processing in a film
> tank. (The print is of course still in the dark, just sealed inside its
> drum.)

I don't know if that all was explicitly stated before but I did understand
those points.

>
> Drums are frequently used for color processing, but they work fine for
> B&W. Some online retailers might list them under color paper processing
> equipment. Another option is known as an "orbital processor." This is
> basically a covered tray with provision to pour chemicals in and out.
>

With the drums can I agitate manually or is it too inconvenient to agitate
it myself? Do I need to get a roller, too?

> I've heard of people using two-room setups for print processing. For
> instance, you could set up an enlarger in a bedroom or a large closet and
> then, using a print processing drum, do the actual processing in a
> bathroom, kitchen, or laundry room. Personally, I think I'd prefer a
> compact bathroom setup, using the bathtub as a place to hold the trays and
> putting the enlarger on a cart or balancing it on the toilet or sink.
> Vertical slot processors can also be handy in space-constrained
> situations, although they tend to be pricey.
>
> Concerning light-proofing a room, note that this is easier if you're
> willing to restrict your darkroom sessions to night. A light leak that
> would fog paper in the day might be harmless at night.
>
> If space is limited, you'll need to select an enlarger carefully. A few
> models fold up, sometimes into suitcase-style boxes. These could be handy
> in cramped quarters. With a little more storage space, an enlarger on a
> wheeled cart might be better.

Thanks.

Greg

Re: B&W film developing questions

On 1/7/2008 7:46 PM G.T. spake thus:

> With the drums can I agitate manually or is it too inconvenient to agitate
> it myself? Do I need to get a roller, too?

I'd spend the extra fifty cents and get the motor base.

I got my drum processor (Beseler Unicolor, made for color 8x10 prints,
but I use it for 4x5 film processing) with the companion motor base for
$cheap on eBay. Stuff like that comes up there all the time.

And contrary to what I've heard here, I've never gotten any processing
streaks on film from the machine agitation.

It also uses a *lot* less chemistry, since you don't have to fill a
whole tray.