Turning film cameras into digital cameras

Re: Turning film cameras into digital cameras

On 6 Apr 2007 19:28:31 -0700, aniramca@yahoo,com wrote:

>Let's for the moment we think "out of the box". If there is a product
>which has the shape of either a 35 mm or 120 film cartridge, and you
>can just load it into your old film camera. However, this product acts
>like a digital "film", in which it will store images in digital
>format, instead of into film, would you buy such a product? It is
>just exactly like your old film cartridge, put into the back of your
>camera, set the camera as it has a film in it, advance the lever ,
>take photos, go to next shot, etc. The difference would be when you
>complete the shots (24 or 36 exposure), you connect this cartridge to
>your computer and downloaded the digital data, just like a media card
>in your digital cameras. This product would be re-used again and
>again, just like the digital cameras.
>Some of you may said that is the same question whether there is a
>"back cartridge" that can be fitted into the old Hasselblad, Mamiya RB
>or M645, in which it changes into digital cameras. However, I heard
>that this speacil back is very expensive. Correct me if such a product
>exist for professional photographers, but at a very high costs! (such
>that it is just easier to throw away the old cameras and buy a new
>digital one).
>The next question is whether technically this is possible. Will people
>buy them, and use their old cameras (which some had invested heavily
>before the digital era came to play). This sounds like a crazy idea,
>but I sometime wonder that if it is possible. There are lots of smart
>people and inventors in this world, and I am sure they have the brain
>to create such a product. I am sure that this would not be welcomed by
>digital cameras' manufacturers, as it will compete with their product.
>Although some of the "players" are still the same (Kodak, Fuji, Nikon,
>Canon, Pentax, etc).
>Unfortunately, we are living in a world which are driven by narrow
>"track of minds", set by big corporations which decided upon our
>direction into the future.
>Thanks for sharing my "dream". I am now awake from my day dreaming.
>Thanks for the discussion.


Sounds like the old "silicon film."

http :// www .dpreview,com /news/0109/01091702siliconfilmvaporizes.asp

Re: Turning film cameras into digital cameras

Companies would rather sell you a new camera and lenses!
There were a limited number of digital converter backs a few years ago.
I did see notices that they were being discontinued from several of the
mfrs.

"Charles" <ckraft@SPAMTRAP.west,net > wrote in message
news:546e13hnv6ark15139e5mkti404kf0u5t9@4ax,com ...
> On 6 Apr 2007 19:28:31 -0700, aniramca@yahoo,com wrote:
>
> >Let's for the moment we think "out of the box". If there is a product
> >which has the shape of either a 35 mm or 120 film cartridge, and you
> >can just load it into your old film camera. However, this product acts
> >like a digital "film", in which it will store images in digital
> >format, instead of into film, would you buy such a product? It is
> >just exactly like your old film cartridge, put into the back of your
> >camera, set the camera as it has a film in it, advance the lever ,
> >take photos, go to next shot, etc. The difference would be when you
> >complete the shots (24 or 36 exposure), you connect this cartridge to
> >your computer and downloaded the digital data, just like a media card
> >in your digital cameras. This product would be re-used again and
> >again, just like the digital cameras.
> >Some of you may said that is the same question whether there is a
> >"back cartridge" that can be fitted into the old Hasselblad, Mamiya RB
> >or M645, in which it changes into digital cameras. However, I heard
> >that this speacil back is very expensive. Correct me if such a product
> >exist for professional photographers, but at a very high costs! (such
> >that it is just easier to throw away the old cameras and buy a new
> >digital one).
> >The next question is whether technically this is possible. Will people
> >buy them, and use their old cameras (which some had invested heavily
> >before the digital era came to play). This sounds like a crazy idea,
> >but I sometime wonder that if it is possible. There are lots of smart
> >people and inventors in this world, and I am sure they have the brain
> >to create such a product. I am sure that this would not be welcomed by
> >digital cameras' manufacturers, as it will compete with their product.
> >Although some of the "players" are still the same (Kodak, Fuji, Nikon,
> >Canon, Pentax, etc).
> >Unfortunately, we are living in a world which are driven by narrow
> >"track of minds", set by big corporations which decided upon our
> >direction into the future.
> >Thanks for sharing my "dream". I am now awake from my day dreaming.
> >Thanks for the discussion.
>
>
> Sounds like the old "silicon film."
>
> http :// www .dpreview,com /news/0109/01091702siliconfilmvaporizes.asp

Re: Turning film cameras into digital cameras

On Apr 6, 11:05 pm, Charles <ckr...@SPAMTRAP.west,net > wrote:
> On 6 Apr 2007 19:28:31 -0700, anira...@yahoo,com wrote:
>
>
>
> >Let's for the moment we think "out of the box". If there is a product
> >which has the shape of either a 35 mm or 120 film cartridge, and you
> >can just load it into your old film camera. However, this product acts
> >like a digital "film", in which it will store images in digital
> >format, instead of into film, would you buy such a product? It is
> >just exactly like your old film cartridge, put into the back of your
> >camera, set the camera as it has a film in it, advance the lever ,
> >take photos, go to next shot, etc. The difference would be when you
> >complete the shots (24 or 36 exposure), you connect this cartridge to
> >your computer and downloaded the digital data, just like a media card
> >in your digital cameras. This product would be re-used again and
> >again, just like the digital cameras.
> >Some of you may said that is the same question whether there is a
> >"back cartridge" that can be fitted into the old Hasselblad, Mamiya RB
> >or M645, in which it changes into digital cameras. However, I heard
> >that this speacil back is very expensive. Correct me if such a product
> >exist for professional photographers, but at a very high costs! (such
> >that it is just easier to throw away the old cameras and buy a new
> >digital one).
> >The next question is whether technically this is possible. Will people
> >buy them, and use their old cameras (which some had invested heavily
> >before the digital era came to play). This sounds like a crazy idea,
> >but I sometime wonder that if it is possible. There are lots of smart
> >people and inventors in this world, and I am sure they have the brain
> >to create such a product. I am sure that this would not be welcomed by
> >digital cameras' manufacturers, as it will compete with their product.
> >Although some of the "players" are still the same (Kodak, Fuji, Nikon,
> >Canon, Pentax, etc).
> >Unfortunately, we are living in a world which are driven by narrow
> >"track of minds", set by big corporations which decided upon our
> >direction into the future.
> >Thanks for sharing my "dream". I am now awake from my day dreaming.
> >Thanks for the discussion.
>
> Sounds like the old "silicon film."
>
> http :// www .dpreview,com /news/0109/01091702siliconfilmvaporizes.asp

Thanks for the reference to the "silicon film", Honestly, I never
heard that before. Again, there are people out there who have thought
ideas like this. However, I wonder why this particular idea became
"cold". Could it be for one or more of the following reasons?
- it was not developed by a big corporation with big dollar. Would it
make any difference if it was developed by Fuji or Kodak?
- Big camera companies may oppose the idea, as they have their own
agenda, or want to sell more digital cameras (therefore provide
"barrier" instead of promoting it).
- Expensive cost to develop, as well as to market against those
selling digital camera. Remember those new 35 mm film system, which
did not seem to "fly" just before the digital world take over... I
even forget the name... the one that can be printed in various sizes?
- Too restrictive of a product - i.e. the EFS (e-film) was only
targetted for specific cameras only. The idea of the silicon film/e-
film (after I read a PDF file from the developer in the web) was to
have the product ready for only certain Nikon and Canon 35 mm cameras.
My thinking was different. The product that I have in mind (similar to
the EFS or silicon film), is not only that it looks similar to the
existing 35 mm camera cartridge, it should function to ANY 35 mm
cameras... not just certain brand of camera. If Kodak/Fuji can sell a
35 mm film cartridge and fit to any cameras, why the silicon film can
work only for certain cameras?. I think this is the main drawback.
Perhaps with newer technology, the idea can be re-introduced and
improvement to the silicon film can be made? Or they "missed the
train" already?
I still think it is a neat idea, but it has to be relatively cheap to
compete with the current market.

Thanks for all replies in these newsgroups!

Re: Turning film cameras into digital cameras

In article <1175948332.142333.253820@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups,com >,
<aniramca@yahoo,com > wrote:

> Thanks for the reference to the "silicon film", Honestly, I never
> heard that before. Again, there are people out there who have thought
> ideas like this. However, I wonder why this particular idea became
> "cold". Could it be for one or more of the following reasons?

the main reason is that it requires physical modification to the camera
for it to work.

the surface of film is light sensitive, whereas the surface of a sensor
is not - it has the bayer filters, micro-lenses, anti-alias filter and
infrared cut filter in front of the actual light sensitive layer.
thus, one can't just put a filter up against the film rails and expect
things to be in focus - it would need to fit further forward.

that means either milling the film rails or fit the whole unit within
the film opening so the focal plane is physically in the right place.
unfortunately, there's a shutter mechanism that gets in the way of
doing that.

if that problem was somehow solved, there would still need to be some
sort of communication between the camera and the device so it knew when
to read an image and store it.

and then there's little things like a fixed white balance and fixed iso
rating when it is the camera (just like film). or a readout for number
of pictures available and battery level.

other than that, it is a good idea. :)

Re: Turning film cameras into digital cameras


"nospam" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:070420070612076848%nospam@nospam.invalid...
> In article <1175948332.142333.253820@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups,com >,
> <aniramca@yahoo,com > wrote:
> the main reason is that it requires physical modification to the camera
> for it to work.
>
> the surface of film is light sensitive, whereas the surface of a sensor
> is not - it has the bayer filters, micro-lenses, anti-alias filter and
> infrared cut filter in front of the actual light sensitive layer.
> thus, one can't just put a filter up against the film rails and expect
> things to be in focus - it would need to fit further forward.
>
> that means either milling the film rails or fit the whole unit within
> the film opening so the focal plane is physically in the right place.
> unfortunately, there's a shutter mechanism that gets in the way of
> doing that.
>

Could it work with medium format TLRs? The shutter is in the lens. That
old Rolleiflex in the closet could have a new life as a digital camera.
There would also be more room for the support hardware. The sensor could be
something less than 6x6 film size and the surrounding area could poke into
the camera a little further to accommodate a hardware enclosure, and the
spool chambers could also house hardware.

SW

Re: Turning film cameras into digital cameras

In article <NpVRh.4210$5e2.1422@newssvr11.news.prodigy,net >, Summer
Wind <summer-wind@theworld,net > wrote:
>
> Could it work with medium format TLRs? The shutter is in the lens. That
> old Rolleiflex in the closet could have a new life as a digital camera.
> There would also be more room for the support hardware. The sensor could be
> something less than 6x6 film size and the surrounding area could poke into
> the camera a little further to accommodate a hardware enclosure, and the
> spool chambers could also house hardware.

there already are medium format digital backs:

< http :// www .phaseone,com /Content/p1digitalbacks/P-,-a-,H-series/Compatib
ility%20chart.aspx>

Re: Turning film cameras into digital cameras

"nospam" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:070420071623461592%nospam@nospam.invalid...
> In article <NpVRh.4210$5e2.1422@newssvr11.news.prodigy,net >, Summer
> Wind <summer-wind@theworld,net > wrote:
>>
>> Could it work with medium format TLRs? The shutter is in the lens. That
>> old Rolleiflex in the closet could have a new life as a digital camera.
>> There would also be more room for the support hardware. The sensor could
>> be
>> something less than 6x6 film size and the surrounding area could poke
>> into
>> the camera a little further to accommodate a hardware enclosure, and the
>> spool chambers could also house hardware.
>
> there already are medium format digital backs:
>

For TLRs? There have been MF SLR digital backs for years, but I don't
recall one for TLRs. Your link did not work, by the way.

SW

Re: Turning film cameras into digital cameras

In article <2TVRh.4216$5e2.3197@newssvr11.news.prodigy,net >, Summer
Wind <summer-wind@theworld,net > wrote:
>
> For TLRs? There have been MF SLR digital backs for years, but I don't
> recall one for TLRs. Your link did not work, by the way.

i doubt there's any demand for a digital back for a tlr. i haven't
seen a tlr being used in a *very* long time.

the link spanned two lines enclosed in angle brackets. if you use a
newsreader that doesn't handle that, manually copy/paste the entire
link. here's the main page:
< http :// www .phaseone,com />

Re: Turning film cameras into digital cameras


"nospam" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:070420071727280928%nospam@nospam.invalid...
> In article <2TVRh.4216$5e2.3197@newssvr11.news.prodigy,net >, Summer
> Wind <summer-wind@theworld,net > wrote:
>>
>> For TLRs? There have been MF SLR digital backs for years, but I don't
>> recall one for TLRs. Your link did not work, by the way.
>
> i doubt there's any demand for a digital back for a tlr. i haven't
> seen a tlr being used in a *very* long time.
>

I saw a TLR in use just a couple of days ago, by me. I have a Yashica-MAT
124G and a Mamiya 330F. The OP asked about a digital film-sized cartridge
that could be used in any 35mm camera, not a back. Backs are make/model
specific. Such a thing will never be produced, of course, but making one
for TLRs would get you past the film plane issue because there is no shutter
in the way. The leaf shutter is in the lens.

SW

Re: Turning film cameras into digital cameras


"Summer Wind" <summer-wind@theworld,net > wrote:
> "nospam" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> that means either milling the film rails or fit the whole unit within
>> the film opening so the focal plane is physically in the right place.
>> unfortunately, there's a shutter mechanism that gets in the way of
>> doing that.
>
> Could it work with medium format TLRs? The shutter is in the lens. That
> old Rolleiflex in the closet could have a new life as a digital camera.

My 50s Rollei TLR produces lovely 77MP files without any modifications
whatsoever.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

Re: Turning film cameras into digital cameras

"David J. Littleboy" <davidjl@gol,com > wrote in message
news:ev9f7i$t6u$2@nnrp.gol,com ...
>
> "Summer Wind" <summer-wind@theworld,net > wrote:
>> "nospam" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> that means either milling the film rails or fit the whole unit within
>>> the film opening so the focal plane is physically in the right place.
>>> unfortunately, there's a shutter mechanism that gets in the way of
>>> doing that.
>>
>> Could it work with medium format TLRs? The shutter is in the lens. That
>> old Rolleiflex in the closet could have a new life as a digital camera.
>
> My 50s Rollei TLR produces lovely 77MP files without any modifications
> whatsoever.
>

My sentiments exactly, but we are just fantasizing about a digital insert
that will never be produced. My two TLRs are in regular use, mostly for
B&W.

SW

Re: Turning film cameras into digital cameras

On Apr 7, 10:49 pm, "Summer Wind" <summer-w...@theworld,net > wrote:
> "David J. Littleboy" <davi...@gol,com > wrote in messagenews:ev9f7i$t6u$2@nnrp.gol,com ...
>
>
>
> > "Summer Wind" <summer-w...@theworld,net > wrote:
> >> "nospam" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
> >>> that means either milling the film rails or fit the whole unit within
> >>> the film opening so the focal plane is physically in the right place.
> >>> unfortunately, there's a shutter mechanism that gets in the way of
> >>> doing that.
>
> >> Could it work with medium format TLRs? The shutter is in the lens. That
> >> old Rolleiflex in the closet could have a new life as a digital camera.
>
> > My 50s Rollei TLR produces lovely 77MP files without any modifications
> > whatsoever.
>
> My sentiments exactly, but we are just fantasizing about a digital insert
> that will never be produced. My two TLRs are in regular use, mostly for
> B&W.
>
> SW

Black and white could be a practical digital solution not yet explored
except (I think) in one medium format digital camera. Monochrome
digital sensors don't have the resolution-killing moire filters that
colour sensors have and as a result, have 40% higher resolution than
do colour (Bayer) sensors of the same size/pixel count. There are
many sources for these sensors, Kodak being the main one. You can buy
an 11 meg full frame black and white sensors from them. Kodak now
offers their huge 39 megapixel sensor in monochrome as well so it
should show up in those big Hasselblads as an alternative to colour
backs.
http :// www .kodak,com /US/en/dpq/site/SENSORS/name/ISSpr20070404 NewSensors

Re: Turning film cameras into digital cameras

"Rich" <rander3127@gmail,com > writes:
> Black and white could be a practical digital solution not yet
> explored except (I think) in one medium format digital camera.

Kodak at one time offered monochrome backs for the Nikon N90s and
the Nikon F5, (sold as DCS 460m and DCS 760m).

I hope somebody will do it again, soon:
http :// heim.ifi.uio.no/~gisle/blog/?p=68
--
- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http :// hannemyr,com /photo/ ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sigma SD10, Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Turning film cameras into digital cameras

There was of course the digital film insert a company tried to do early in
the digital camera days. It was basically a 35mm size device with the CCD on
what would have been the first frame of film that rested over the proper
area in the 35mm camera. It was a neat idea and they had a working
prototype. However, they never could get it working quite right. They had
too little space to cram a lot of technology including batter for power also
the need for a full size 35mm CCD was very expensive. In the end they went
belly up.

=(8)

Re: Turning film cameras into digital cameras

On Apr 8, 1:01 pm, "=\(8\)" <nos...@nospam,com > wrote:
> There was of course the digital film insert a company tried to do early in
> the digital camera days. It was basically a 35mm size device with the CCD on
> what would have been the first frame of film that rested over the proper
> area in the 35mm camera. It was a neat idea and they had a working
> prototype. However, they never could get it working quite right. They had
> too little space to cram a lot of technology including batter for power also
> the need for a full size 35mm CCD was very expensive. In the end they went
> belly up.
>
> =(8)

I am aware that there are digital backs that are available for the
medium format cameras. I assume the cost of this special attachment is
very expensive.
What I am thinking about is just a 35 mm film or a 120mm film
cartridge similar to the one proposed as the silicon film/e-film.
Nothing more and nothing fancier. If it becomes a device in which you
have to open the hinge of your old camera and attach a digital
back.... it does not serve the purpose. I am thinking about an exact
replica of 35 mm or 120 mm film cartridge, that you drop into the
slot, engage in with the lever device to cock the shutter, the way we
did it the old fashioned way in the past.
Someone mentioned that there are too much things to put into that tiny
cartridge. However, technology has changed in the past 6 years alone.
People can now jam in 2 GB (or even 4 GB) data into that same SD card.
Can we jam in a tiny memory chip into the 35 mm cartridge? Then, add
a tiny battery source (rechargeable, just like that mini shuttle ipod
that clip in your shirt and play music.... they can do it).
My whole point of the start of my discussion is whether the technology
is now possible. I know, there are a lot of other obstacles on the
way, and perhaps the biggest one is not related to the technology at
all, but to the willingness of the industry to serve for the
consumer... (yep...that is all of us). The camera companies are now in
the business to sell new digital cameras, and they said their way or
no way at all. They have so much resources that can throw away
something that can be perceived as a competition.
Someone indicated that there may not be enough space for the
processing and storing of the data. However, it should be noted that
the camera body is the one that function to select the shutter speed,
the aperture, and other things (timer, synchronization with flash,
etc). The job of this 35mm cartridge is just simply to record into a
digital format, until it is ready to download into computer....
nothing else. If your old Minolta maxxum, Olympus OM1, Fujica ST 801,
Canon EF, Pentax K1000, Konica T3, Nikon F-1, Yashica MAT 124, Mamiya
M645, or others has their own disadvantages in their system, this 35
or 120mm cartridge are not supposed to change or help the camera body.
It is the job of the camera body to get the shutter speed to open (at
the right time and aperture). The camera will have the job to advance
to the next film using its lever. If the camera has a multiple
exposure feature (such as my old T3), when it will disengage the
sprocket to advance the film, so that the next shot, the e-film in the
35mm cartridge will be exposed twice or three times, etc.... just the
same way it did using regular 35mm film.

Someone also mentioned that perhaps no one want to use the old camera.
The question would be if there are lots of people still want to use
the old cameras. Well... this is just a discussion perhaps these
people already invested and was happy with their old gadgets and want
to continue using it.
The point is to make the new e-film as simple and as close a replica
of the old film cartridge. Of course there are perhaps many other
challanges..... However... if in the past you buy a 35mm cartridge and
drop into your camera.... it is supposed to work, right? whether it
is a Nikon, a Fuji, A Ricoh, a Leica, a Praktika or other brands.
This is exactly the idea. That e-film or silicon film introduced/
planned in 2001 was only limited to specific cameras.... and I think
that was the defeat.
To make it work this time, the cartridge has to be as simple as
possible (perhaps can only be used for limited number of times, depend
on the wear and tear of the e-film. It has to be able to be dropped
into a $1000 camera, or a $30 vivitar old camera...

Thanks anyway for all the discussion.... it has been a very
interesting comments.