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Did Jesus say kill those who dont believe in me- Luke 19.27 ?
Re: Did Jesus say kill those who dont believe in me- Luke 19.27 ?
M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:
> On Apr 30, 2:56 am, rainandsnow <therainands...@NOTTHISBITyahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:
>>> On Apr 29, 1:04 pm, rainandsnow <therainands...@NOTTHISBITyahoo.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>> habshi wrote:
>>>>> In another verse Jesus refuses to heal a non Jewish woman
>>>>> saying his message is not to be spent on 'swines' !
>>>> Jesus's love and offer of forgiveness extend to all,
>>> He didn't make an offer of forgiveness to most of the people he
>>> preached to. Where can you find "forgiveness" in the Sermon on the
>>> Mount?
>> Do you think anyone has ever kept to those rules??
>
> Sidestepping the question, eh? Where does he tell that audience that
> even if they can't keep to the rules, they can earn forgiveness? In
> short, where does he offer them forgiveness?
Matthew 6.12 "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."
In this verse Jesus provides a suggested framework for prayer. He
suggests praying for forgiveness.
He also said:
I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (Matthew
9.13)
(ie not the self righteous but those who realise their need)
>
>> Or even the 10 commandments??
>
> He never referred to "the 10 commandments". Once, when he referred to
> "the commandments", he was asked "Which commandments?", he replied: No
> murder, no adultery, no stealing, no false witnessing, honor parents;
> and, love your neighbor. Does that add up to 10 commandments? Is each
> one of these commandments on your list of "the 10 commandments"? No
> and no? Then, what he called "the commandments" was not "the 10
> commandments".
He referred to The Law - talking of which he also said:
M22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all
thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
" 17"Think not that I am come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I am
not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one
jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be
fulfilled" (Matthew 5.17)
The religious leaders of the day were very keen on The Law as based on
the 10 commandments. They thought that adhering to the law would ensure
their salvation. Jesus showed that salvation by this route was unattainable.
>
>> The crux of this is that we can't make it by works alone.
>
> Where in the Sermon on the Mount does he tell his audience that they
> can't make it by works alone?
Would there be anyone in the audience who thought Oh good, I'm OK then??
Would they not all realise that they fell short and needed help??
In the case of members of the audience
> who heard him only on that occasion, he didn't teach them that they
> couldn't make it by works alone. On other occasions too, when people
> asked him how to earn eternal life, he didn't teach them that they
> couldn't make it by works alone.
Are you thinking of the young man of Matthew 19?? He loved his
possessions too much. I'm sure Jesus's comments gave him something to
think about.
>
>> The sermon on the mount can be regarded as a list of the hallmarks of
>> the perfect man - of which there are none. We all fall short and can not
>> get to heaven by being good. The only way we can be saved from eternal
>> damnation is by believing in Jesus.
>
> Then, Jesus wanted most of his audiences to suffer eternal damnation,
> since he didn't teach most of his audiences that the only way they
> could be saved from eternal damnation was by believing in him. This
> includes his audience at the Sermon on the Mount. Why did he want his
> audiences to suffer eternal damnation?
He certainly doesn't. There are many verses which give cause for hope
even in the sermon on the mount:
7. 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your
children, how much more shall your Father who is in Heaven give good
things to them that ask Him?
7. 21 "Not every one that saith unto Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter into
the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father who is in
Heaven.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(John 3.16)
The Lord is . . . . not willing that any should perish, but that all
should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3,9)
He came to earth and went through crucifixion to provide an alternative.
That was the whole point of his becoming man. From the account in
Matthew you conclude he didn't put this across very well but it is a
recurrent theme throughout the Bible. Jesus was a skilled communicator
and I don't think he'd have misled the audience on the mount.
7.28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the
people were astonished at His doctrine;
29for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
>
>> He asked that people believe in him
>> and follow his teachings. As he died on the cross one of the thieves
>> with him mocked him. The other realised who he was and asked to be
>> remembered. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day
>> shalt thou be with me in paradise. OK forgiveness is not mentioned but
>> is implicit.
>>
>> For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
>> (Luke 19, 10)
>>>> so your comment
>>>> above is questionable to say the least. Which verse do you refer to??
>>> He compared the woman's kind to dogs, not swine. - Mark 7:27-28
>> If you take a look at the chapter:
>> (www .biblegateway,com /passage/?search=mark%207;&versionH;)
>> You will see that a woman asked Jesus to heal her daughter. He proceed
>> to do so. Why are you posting lies?
>
> I didn't say he didn't heal her daughter. I just said it was NOT swine
> but dogs that he likened her kind to.
Yes sorry. It was the OP who said that. I wonder why he/she should have
posted a lie without first checking it out.
M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:
> On Apr 30, 2:56 am, rainandsnow <therainands...@NOTTHISBITyahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:
>>> On Apr 29, 1:04 pm, rainandsnow <therainands...@NOTTHISBITyahoo.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>> habshi wrote:
>>>>> In another verse Jesus refuses to heal a non Jewish woman
>>>>> saying his message is not to be spent on 'swines' !
>>>> Jesus's love and offer of forgiveness extend to all,
>>> He didn't make an offer of forgiveness to most of the people he
>>> preached to. Where can you find "forgiveness" in the Sermon on the
>>> Mount?
>> Do you think anyone has ever kept to those rules??
>
> Sidestepping the question, eh? Where does he tell that audience that
> even if they can't keep to the rules, they can earn forgiveness? In
> short, where does he offer them forgiveness?
Matthew 6.12 "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."
In this verse Jesus provides a suggested framework for prayer. He
suggests praying for forgiveness.
He also said:
I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (Matthew
9.13)
(ie not the self righteous but those who realise their need)
>
>> Or even the 10 commandments??
>
> He never referred to "the 10 commandments". Once, when he referred to
> "the commandments", he was asked "Which commandments?", he replied: No
> murder, no adultery, no stealing, no false witnessing, honor parents;
> and, love your neighbor. Does that add up to 10 commandments? Is each
> one of these commandments on your list of "the 10 commandments"? No
> and no? Then, what he called "the commandments" was not "the 10
> commandments".
He referred to The Law - talking of which he also said:
M22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all
thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
" 17"Think not that I am come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I am
not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one
jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be
fulfilled" (Matthew 5.17)
The religious leaders of the day were very keen on The Law as based on
the 10 commandments. They thought that adhering to the law would ensure
their salvation. Jesus showed that salvation by this route was unattainable.
>
>> The crux of this is that we can't make it by works alone.
>
> Where in the Sermon on the Mount does he tell his audience that they
> can't make it by works alone?
Would there be anyone in the audience who thought Oh good, I'm OK then??
Would they not all realise that they fell short and needed help??
In the case of members of the audience
> who heard him only on that occasion, he didn't teach them that they
> couldn't make it by works alone. On other occasions too, when people
> asked him how to earn eternal life, he didn't teach them that they
> couldn't make it by works alone.
Are you thinking of the young man of Matthew 19?? He loved his
possessions too much. I'm sure Jesus's comments gave him something to
think about.
>
>> The sermon on the mount can be regarded as a list of the hallmarks of
>> the perfect man - of which there are none. We all fall short and can not
>> get to heaven by being good. The only way we can be saved from eternal
>> damnation is by believing in Jesus.
>
> Then, Jesus wanted most of his audiences to suffer eternal damnation,
> since he didn't teach most of his audiences that the only way they
> could be saved from eternal damnation was by believing in him. This
> includes his audience at the Sermon on the Mount. Why did he want his
> audiences to suffer eternal damnation?
He certainly doesn't. There are many verses which give cause for hope
even in the sermon on the mount:
7. 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your
children, how much more shall your Father who is in Heaven give good
things to them that ask Him?
7. 21 "Not every one that saith unto Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter into
the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father who is in
Heaven.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(John 3.16)
The Lord is . . . . not willing that any should perish, but that all
should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3,9)
He came to earth and went through crucifixion to provide an alternative.
That was the whole point of his becoming man. From the account in
Matthew you conclude he didn't put this across very well but it is a
recurrent theme throughout the Bible. Jesus was a skilled communicator
and I don't think he'd have misled the audience on the mount.
7.28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the
people were astonished at His doctrine;
29for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
>
>> He asked that people believe in him
>> and follow his teachings. As he died on the cross one of the thieves
>> with him mocked him. The other realised who he was and asked to be
>> remembered. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day
>> shalt thou be with me in paradise. OK forgiveness is not mentioned but
>> is implicit.
>>
>> For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
>> (Luke 19, 10)
>>>> so your comment
>>>> above is questionable to say the least. Which verse do you refer to??
>>> He compared the woman's kind to dogs, not swine. - Mark 7:27-28
>> If you take a look at the chapter:
>> (www .biblegateway,com /passage/?search=mark%207;&versionH;)
>> You will see that a woman asked Jesus to heal her daughter. He proceed
>> to do so. Why are you posting lies?
>
> I didn't say he didn't heal her daughter. I just said it was NOT swine
> but dogs that he likened her kind to.
Yes sorry. It was the OP who said that. I wonder why he/she should have
posted a lie without first checking it out.
Re: Did Jesus say kill those who dont believe in me- Luke 19.27 ?
On Apr 30, 8:02 am, rainandsnow <therainands...@NOTTHISBITyahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
> M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:
> > On Apr 30, 2:56 am, rainandsnow <therainands...@NOTTHISBITyahoo.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> >> M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:
> >>> On Apr 29, 1:04 pm, rainandsnow <therainands...@NOTTHISBITyahoo.co.uk>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> habshi wrote:
> >>>>> In another verse Jesus refuses to heal a non Jewish woman
> >>>>> saying his message is not to be spent on 'swines' !
> >>>> Jesus's love and offer of forgiveness extend to all,
> >>> He didn't make an offer of forgiveness to most of the people he
> >>> preached to. Where can you find "forgiveness" in the Sermon on the
> >>> Mount?
> >> Do you think anyone has ever kept to those rules??
>
> > Sidestepping the question, eh? Where does he tell that audience that
> > even if they can't keep to the rules, they can earn forgiveness? In
> > short, where does he offer them forgiveness?
>
> Matthew 6.12 "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."
>
> In this verse Jesus provides a suggested framework for prayer. He
> suggests praying for forgiveness.
>
> He also said:
>
> I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (Matthew
> 9.13)
>
> (ie not the self righteous but those who realise their need)
> >> Or even the 10 commandments??
>
> > He never referred to "the 10 commandments". Once, when he referred to
> > "the commandments", he was asked "Which commandments?", he replied: No
> > murder, no adultery, no stealing, no false witnessing, honor parents;
> > and, love your neighbor. Does that add up to 10 commandments? Is each
> > one of these commandments on your list of "the 10 commandments"? No
> > and no? Then, what he called "the commandments" was not "the 10
> > commandments".
>
> He referred to The Law - talking of which he also said:
>
> M22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all
> thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
> 38 This is the first and great commandment.
... but it is not on the list of 10 commandments. This reinforces my
point that when Jesus said "commandments", he didn't mean the 10
commandments.
> 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
> thyself.
> 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
>
> " 17"Think not that I am come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I am
> not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
> 18For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one
> jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be
> fulfilled" (Matthew 5.17)
>
> The religious leaders of the day were very keen on The Law as based on
> the 10 commandments. They thought that adhering to the law would ensure
> their salvation. Jesus showed that salvation by this route was unattainable.
>
>
> >> The crux of this is that we can't make it by works alone.
>
> > Where in the Sermon on the Mount does he tell his audience that they
> > can't make it by works alone?
>
> Would there be anyone in the audience who thought Oh good, I'm OK then??
No; they would have thought that he had given them goals to try to
attain.
> Would they not all realise that they fell short and needed help??
They could not have realized that they needed help in the form of
blood from crucifixion.
> > In the case of members of the audience
> > who heard him only on that occasion, he didn't teach them that they
> > couldn't make it by works alone. On other occasions too, when people
> > asked him how to earn eternal life, he didn't teach them that they
> > couldn't make it by works alone.
>
> Are you thinking of the young man of Matthew 19?? He loved his
> possessions too much. I'm sure Jesus's comments gave him something to
> think about.
Jesus could have given him more to think about by saying that blood
from his crucifixion would provide an alternative. According to you
failing to believe this will precipitate eternal damnation. Well, it
was Jesus himself who failed to teach this. So, if it will precipitate
eternal damnation, then it was Jesus himself who sentenced most of his
audiences to eternal damnation while claiming to be trying to save
them.
> >> The sermon on the mount can be regarded as a list of the hallmarks of
> >> the perfect man - of which there are none. We all fall short and can not
> >> get to heaven by being good. The only way we can be saved from eternal
> >> damnation is by believing in Jesus.
>
> > Then, Jesus wanted most of his audiences to suffer eternal damnation,
> > since he didn't teach most of his audiences that the only way they
> > could be saved from eternal damnation was by believing in him. This
> > includes his audience at the Sermon on the Mount. Why did he want his
> > audiences to suffer eternal damnation?
>
> He certainly doesn't. There are many verses which give cause for hope
> even in the sermon on the mount:
>
> 7. 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your
> children, how much more shall your Father who is in Heaven give good
> things to them that ask Him?
Asking the Father for good things can be done without believing in
Jesus. So, in this statement, he doesn't give that audience a
requirement to believe in Jesus.
> 7. 21 "Not every one that saith unto Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter into
> the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father who is in
> Heaven.
Asking them to do the will of the Father is not the same as asking
them to believe in Jesus. So, this statement too doesn't require the
audience to believe in Jesus.
> For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
> whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
> (John 3.16)
Jesus didn't make this statement to his audience at the Sermon on the
Mount. This is not even Jesus' statement.
> The Lord is . . . . not willing that any should perish, but that all
> should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3,9)
Not a statement by Jesus.
> He came to earth and went through crucifixion to provide an alternative.
> That was the whole point of his becoming man. From the account in
> Matthew you conclude he didn't put this across very well but it is a
> recurrent theme throughout the Bible. Jesus was a skilled communicator
> and I don't think he'd have misled the audience on the mount.
If what you say is right, he did mislead them. Conversely, if he
didn't mislead them, then what you say is not right since he didn't
tell them what you say. On the other hand, if he said such things to
some people but not to others, then he was given to teaching different
things to different people which makes it difficult to give his
statements much credence.
> 7.28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the
> people were astonished at His doctrine;
... and what was the doctrine heard by the audience in Matthew 7? That
doctrine doesn't include "crucifixion will provide an alternative"
since nowhere in Matthew 7 does the audience on the Mount hear Jesus
saying "crucifixion will provide an alternative".
> 29for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
He taught on the Mount that he would recommend those who did the
Father's will and denounce those who did not the Father's will. He
didn't teach that he would dencounce those who would not accept the
claim that crucifixion provides an alternative.
> > I didn't say he didn't heal her daughter. I just said it was NOT swine
> > but dogs that he likened her kind to.
> Yes sorry. It was the OP who said that. I wonder why he/she should have
> posted a lie without first checking it out.
Perhaps it is an easy error to make. Dogs and swine appear together in
the Sermon on the Mount. "Do not cast unto dogs what is holy; do not
cast pearls before swine." (Quoting from memory, so it might be
slightly different from the text)
On Apr 30, 8:02 am, rainandsnow <therainands...@NOTTHISBITyahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
> M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:
> > On Apr 30, 2:56 am, rainandsnow <therainands...@NOTTHISBITyahoo.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> >> M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:
> >>> On Apr 29, 1:04 pm, rainandsnow <therainands...@NOTTHISBITyahoo.co.uk>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> habshi wrote:
> >>>>> In another verse Jesus refuses to heal a non Jewish woman
> >>>>> saying his message is not to be spent on 'swines' !
> >>>> Jesus's love and offer of forgiveness extend to all,
> >>> He didn't make an offer of forgiveness to most of the people he
> >>> preached to. Where can you find "forgiveness" in the Sermon on the
> >>> Mount?
> >> Do you think anyone has ever kept to those rules??
>
> > Sidestepping the question, eh? Where does he tell that audience that
> > even if they can't keep to the rules, they can earn forgiveness? In
> > short, where does he offer them forgiveness?
>
> Matthew 6.12 "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."
>
> In this verse Jesus provides a suggested framework for prayer. He
> suggests praying for forgiveness.
>
> He also said:
>
> I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (Matthew
> 9.13)
>
> (ie not the self righteous but those who realise their need)
> >> Or even the 10 commandments??
>
> > He never referred to "the 10 commandments". Once, when he referred to
> > "the commandments", he was asked "Which commandments?", he replied: No
> > murder, no adultery, no stealing, no false witnessing, honor parents;
> > and, love your neighbor. Does that add up to 10 commandments? Is each
> > one of these commandments on your list of "the 10 commandments"? No
> > and no? Then, what he called "the commandments" was not "the 10
> > commandments".
>
> He referred to The Law - talking of which he also said:
>
> M22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all
> thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
> 38 This is the first and great commandment.
... but it is not on the list of 10 commandments. This reinforces my
point that when Jesus said "commandments", he didn't mean the 10
commandments.
> 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
> thyself.
> 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
>
> " 17"Think not that I am come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I am
> not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
> 18For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one
> jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be
> fulfilled" (Matthew 5.17)
>
> The religious leaders of the day were very keen on The Law as based on
> the 10 commandments. They thought that adhering to the law would ensure
> their salvation. Jesus showed that salvation by this route was unattainable.
>
>
> >> The crux of this is that we can't make it by works alone.
>
> > Where in the Sermon on the Mount does he tell his audience that they
> > can't make it by works alone?
>
> Would there be anyone in the audience who thought Oh good, I'm OK then??
No; they would have thought that he had given them goals to try to
attain.
> Would they not all realise that they fell short and needed help??
They could not have realized that they needed help in the form of
blood from crucifixion.
> > In the case of members of the audience
> > who heard him only on that occasion, he didn't teach them that they
> > couldn't make it by works alone. On other occasions too, when people
> > asked him how to earn eternal life, he didn't teach them that they
> > couldn't make it by works alone.
>
> Are you thinking of the young man of Matthew 19?? He loved his
> possessions too much. I'm sure Jesus's comments gave him something to
> think about.
Jesus could have given him more to think about by saying that blood
from his crucifixion would provide an alternative. According to you
failing to believe this will precipitate eternal damnation. Well, it
was Jesus himself who failed to teach this. So, if it will precipitate
eternal damnation, then it was Jesus himself who sentenced most of his
audiences to eternal damnation while claiming to be trying to save
them.
> >> The sermon on the mount can be regarded as a list of the hallmarks of
> >> the perfect man - of which there are none. We all fall short and can not
> >> get to heaven by being good. The only way we can be saved from eternal
> >> damnation is by believing in Jesus.
>
> > Then, Jesus wanted most of his audiences to suffer eternal damnation,
> > since he didn't teach most of his audiences that the only way they
> > could be saved from eternal damnation was by believing in him. This
> > includes his audience at the Sermon on the Mount. Why did he want his
> > audiences to suffer eternal damnation?
>
> He certainly doesn't. There are many verses which give cause for hope
> even in the sermon on the mount:
>
> 7. 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your
> children, how much more shall your Father who is in Heaven give good
> things to them that ask Him?
Asking the Father for good things can be done without believing in
Jesus. So, in this statement, he doesn't give that audience a
requirement to believe in Jesus.
> 7. 21 "Not every one that saith unto Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter into
> the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father who is in
> Heaven.
Asking them to do the will of the Father is not the same as asking
them to believe in Jesus. So, this statement too doesn't require the
audience to believe in Jesus.
> For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
> whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
> (John 3.16)
Jesus didn't make this statement to his audience at the Sermon on the
Mount. This is not even Jesus' statement.
> The Lord is . . . . not willing that any should perish, but that all
> should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3,9)
Not a statement by Jesus.
> He came to earth and went through crucifixion to provide an alternative.
> That was the whole point of his becoming man. From the account in
> Matthew you conclude he didn't put this across very well but it is a
> recurrent theme throughout the Bible. Jesus was a skilled communicator
> and I don't think he'd have misled the audience on the mount.
If what you say is right, he did mislead them. Conversely, if he
didn't mislead them, then what you say is not right since he didn't
tell them what you say. On the other hand, if he said such things to
some people but not to others, then he was given to teaching different
things to different people which makes it difficult to give his
statements much credence.
> 7.28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the
> people were astonished at His doctrine;
... and what was the doctrine heard by the audience in Matthew 7? That
doctrine doesn't include "crucifixion will provide an alternative"
since nowhere in Matthew 7 does the audience on the Mount hear Jesus
saying "crucifixion will provide an alternative".
> 29for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
He taught on the Mount that he would recommend those who did the
Father's will and denounce those who did not the Father's will. He
didn't teach that he would dencounce those who would not accept the
claim that crucifixion provides an alternative.
> > I didn't say he didn't heal her daughter. I just said it was NOT swine
> > but dogs that he likened her kind to.
> Yes sorry. It was the OP who said that. I wonder why he/she should have
> posted a lie without first checking it out.
Perhaps it is an easy error to make. Dogs and swine appear together in
the Sermon on the Mount. "Do not cast unto dogs what is holy; do not
cast pearls before swine." (Quoting from memory, so it might be
slightly different from the text)
Re: Did Jesus say kill those who dont believe in me- Luke 19.27 ?
M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:
>>>> The crux of this is that we can't make it by works alone.
>>> Where in the Sermon on the Mount does he tell his audience that they
>>> can't make it by works alone?
>> Would there be anyone in the audience who thought Oh good, I'm OK then??
>
> No; they would have thought that he had given them goals to try to
> attain.
>
>> Would they not all realise that they fell short and needed help??
>
> They could not have realized that they needed help in the form of
> blood from crucifixion.
Were they not Jews - brought up on the Old Testament prophecies of a
Messiah who would be the ultimate sacrifice?? I understand (and correct
me please if I'm wrong) that some/most Jews do not believe that Jesus
was the Messiah and are still waiting. So surely they would realise they
needed the prophesied one or what were they waiting for?
>
>>> In the case of members of the audience
>>> who heard him only on that occasion, he didn't teach them that they
>>> couldn't make it by works alone. On other occasions too, when people
>>> asked him how to earn eternal life, he didn't teach them that they
>>> couldn't make it by works alone.
>> Are you thinking of the young man of Matthew 19?? He loved his
>> possessions too much. I'm sure Jesus's comments gave him something to
>> think about.
>
> Jesus could have given him more to think about by saying that blood
> from his crucifixion would provide an alternative. According to you
> failing to believe this will precipitate eternal damnation. Well, it
> was Jesus himself who failed to teach this. So, if it will precipitate
> eternal damnation, then it was Jesus himself who sentenced most of his
> audiences to eternal damnation while claiming to be trying to save
> them.
Remember the crucifixion was still in the future at this point. I should
think that Jesus hoped the people or at least the earnest seekers
amongst them, would see that he was the long awaited messiah.
>> 7. 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your
>> children, how much more shall your Father who is in Heaven give good
>> things to them that ask Him?
>
> Asking the Father for good things can be done without believing in
> Jesus. So, in this statement, he doesn't give that audience a
> requirement to believe in Jesus.
OK
>
>> 7. 21 "Not every one that saith unto Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter into
>> the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father who is in
>> Heaven.
>
> Asking them to do the will of the Father is not the same as asking
> them to believe in Jesus. So, this statement too doesn't require the
> audience to believe in Jesus.
OK
>
>> For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
>> whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
>> (John 3.16)
>
> Jesus didn't make this statement to his audience at the Sermon on the
> Mount. This is not even Jesus' statement.
OK, but surely relevant.
>
>> The Lord is . . . . not willing that any should perish, but that all
>> should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3,9)
>
> Not a statement by Jesus.
But about him
>
>> He came to earth and went through crucifixion to provide an alternative.
>> That was the whole point of his becoming man. From the account in
>> Matthew you conclude he didn't put this across very well but it is a
>> recurrent theme throughout the Bible. Jesus was a skilled communicator
>> and I don't think he'd have misled the audience on the mount.
>
> If what you say is right, he did mislead them. Conversely, if he
> didn't mislead them, then what you say is not right since he didn't
> tell them what you say. On the other hand, if he said such things to
> some people but not to others, then he was given to teaching different
> things to different people which makes it difficult to give his
> statements much credence.
Jesus said:
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,
but by me. John 14,6
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is
condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God.
>
>> 7.28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the
>> people were astonished at His doctrine;
>
> ... and what was the doctrine heard by the audience in Matthew 7?That
> doctrine doesn't include "crucifixion will provide an alternative"
> since nowhere in Matthew 7 does the audience on the Mount hear Jesus
> saying "crucifixion will provide an alternative".
I should think they were astonished because they had begun to see that
he was someone extremely special.
>
>> 29for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
>
> He taught on the Mount that he would recommend those who did the
> Father's will and denounce those who did not the Father's will. He
> didn't teach that he would dencounce those who would not accept the
> claim that crucifixion provides an alternative.
Jesus said:
"Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess
also before My Father who is in Heaven.
33But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My
Father who is in Heaven. (Matthew 9, 32,33)
and
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth
not shall be damned. Mark 16.16
I do agree with you that there is an emphasis on works in the sermon on
the mount. I'm not sure what we are disagreeing about. What is your
contention?
M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:
>>>> The crux of this is that we can't make it by works alone.
>>> Where in the Sermon on the Mount does he tell his audience that they
>>> can't make it by works alone?
>> Would there be anyone in the audience who thought Oh good, I'm OK then??
>
> No; they would have thought that he had given them goals to try to
> attain.
>
>> Would they not all realise that they fell short and needed help??
>
> They could not have realized that they needed help in the form of
> blood from crucifixion.
Were they not Jews - brought up on the Old Testament prophecies of a
Messiah who would be the ultimate sacrifice?? I understand (and correct
me please if I'm wrong) that some/most Jews do not believe that Jesus
was the Messiah and are still waiting. So surely they would realise they
needed the prophesied one or what were they waiting for?
>
>>> In the case of members of the audience
>>> who heard him only on that occasion, he didn't teach them that they
>>> couldn't make it by works alone. On other occasions too, when people
>>> asked him how to earn eternal life, he didn't teach them that they
>>> couldn't make it by works alone.
>> Are you thinking of the young man of Matthew 19?? He loved his
>> possessions too much. I'm sure Jesus's comments gave him something to
>> think about.
>
> Jesus could have given him more to think about by saying that blood
> from his crucifixion would provide an alternative. According to you
> failing to believe this will precipitate eternal damnation. Well, it
> was Jesus himself who failed to teach this. So, if it will precipitate
> eternal damnation, then it was Jesus himself who sentenced most of his
> audiences to eternal damnation while claiming to be trying to save
> them.
Remember the crucifixion was still in the future at this point. I should
think that Jesus hoped the people or at least the earnest seekers
amongst them, would see that he was the long awaited messiah.
>> 7. 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your
>> children, how much more shall your Father who is in Heaven give good
>> things to them that ask Him?
>
> Asking the Father for good things can be done without believing in
> Jesus. So, in this statement, he doesn't give that audience a
> requirement to believe in Jesus.
OK
>
>> 7. 21 "Not every one that saith unto Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter into
>> the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father who is in
>> Heaven.
>
> Asking them to do the will of the Father is not the same as asking
> them to believe in Jesus. So, this statement too doesn't require the
> audience to believe in Jesus.
OK
>
>> For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
>> whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
>> (John 3.16)
>
> Jesus didn't make this statement to his audience at the Sermon on the
> Mount. This is not even Jesus' statement.
OK, but surely relevant.
>
>> The Lord is . . . . not willing that any should perish, but that all
>> should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3,9)
>
> Not a statement by Jesus.
But about him
>
>> He came to earth and went through crucifixion to provide an alternative.
>> That was the whole point of his becoming man. From the account in
>> Matthew you conclude he didn't put this across very well but it is a
>> recurrent theme throughout the Bible. Jesus was a skilled communicator
>> and I don't think he'd have misled the audience on the mount.
>
> If what you say is right, he did mislead them. Conversely, if he
> didn't mislead them, then what you say is not right since he didn't
> tell them what you say. On the other hand, if he said such things to
> some people but not to others, then he was given to teaching different
> things to different people which makes it difficult to give his
> statements much credence.
Jesus said:
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,
but by me. John 14,6
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is
condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God.
>
>> 7.28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the
>> people were astonished at His doctrine;
>
> ... and what was the doctrine heard by the audience in Matthew 7?That
> doctrine doesn't include "crucifixion will provide an alternative"
> since nowhere in Matthew 7 does the audience on the Mount hear Jesus
> saying "crucifixion will provide an alternative".
I should think they were astonished because they had begun to see that
he was someone extremely special.
>
>> 29for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
>
> He taught on the Mount that he would recommend those who did the
> Father's will and denounce those who did not the Father's will. He
> didn't teach that he would dencounce those who would not accept the
> claim that crucifixion provides an alternative.
Jesus said:
"Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess
also before My Father who is in Heaven.
33But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My
Father who is in Heaven. (Matthew 9, 32,33)
and
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth
not shall be damned. Mark 16.16
I do agree with you that there is an emphasis on works in the sermon on
the mount. I'm not sure what we are disagreeing about. What is your
contention?
Re: Did Jesus say kill those who dont believe in me- Luke 19.27 ?
THREE CHARACTERISTICS SUGGEST THAT JESUS WAS A WOMAN:
1. He had to feed a crowd, at a moment’s notice, when there was
no food.
2. He kept trying to get the message across to a bunch of men who
just didn’t get it.
3. Even when he was dead, he had to get up because there was more
work for him to do
THREE CHARACTERISTICS SUGGEST THAT JESUS WAS A WOMAN:
1. He had to feed a crowd, at a moment’s notice, when there was
no food.
2. He kept trying to get the message across to a bunch of men who
just didn’t get it.
3. Even when he was dead, he had to get up because there was more
work for him to do
Re: Did Jesus say kill those who dont believe in me- Luke 19.27 ?
Although its a parable , its clear that Jesus is the King ,
and the servants are his apostles and those who dont believe in him as
king will be killed in front of him. In fact Jesus and God and Satan
are running a kind of protection racket. If you dont believe in Jesus
(the only way to heaven is through him) then no matter how good a
human you , God and Satan will torment you forever in hellfire !
Morons who believe in all this junk and not in Mother Nature
who really created us via evolution.
Luke 19.27
Jesus said
"But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them,
bring them here and slay them in my presence."
...
missionaries will always confuse the issue. The bibles that
present Jesus thus have many violent verses in the Christian bible! I
posted before. Christians have always used bible as a political tool
not as a religious,spiritual tool. Thus they have verses which are
violent but hide them till they convert and then use them to kill
others who refuse. In war both sides invoke the same bible!
Mark 16 verses:
16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly
thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and
they shall recover
Although its a parable , its clear that Jesus is the King ,
and the servants are his apostles and those who dont believe in him as
king will be killed in front of him. In fact Jesus and God and Satan
are running a kind of protection racket. If you dont believe in Jesus
(the only way to heaven is through him) then no matter how good a
human you , God and Satan will torment you forever in hellfire !
Morons who believe in all this junk and not in Mother Nature
who really created us via evolution.
Luke 19.27
Jesus said
"But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them,
bring them here and slay them in my presence."
...
missionaries will always confuse the issue. The bibles that
present Jesus thus have many violent verses in the Christian bible! I
posted before. Christians have always used bible as a political tool
not as a religious,spiritual tool. Thus they have verses which are
violent but hide them till they convert and then use them to kill
others who refuse. In war both sides invoke the same bible!
Mark 16 verses:
16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly
thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and
they shall recover
Re: Did Jesus say kill those who dont believe in me- Luke 19.27 ?
habshi wrote:
> "But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them,
> bring them here and slay them in my presence."
Jesus was NOT exhorting his follower to slay enemies. Your
interpretation of what Jesus says in a parable is totally at odds with
the rest of what Jesus says - eg
John 12 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on
me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for
I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Can I suggest that you read through The Gospel of John. I have
difficulty imagining anyone reading through it in an open minded way and
not feeling its ring of truth and not believing that Jesus was genuine.
www .biblegateway,com has it in different languages.
habshi wrote:
> "But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them,
> bring them here and slay them in my presence."
Jesus was NOT exhorting his follower to slay enemies. Your
interpretation of what Jesus says in a parable is totally at odds with
the rest of what Jesus says - eg
John 12 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on
me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for
I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Can I suggest that you read through The Gospel of John. I have
difficulty imagining anyone reading through it in an open minded way and
not feeling its ring of truth and not believing that Jesus was genuine.
www .biblegateway,com has it in different languages.
